Heater
Posts: 13685
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 9:38 am

I'm still wondering what an "IoT device" is.

On the one side we have a "thing", say my coffee mug. On the other side we have The Internet.

In between we can imagine some sensors, the temperature and amount of coffee in my coffee mug. And some means of getting sensor data out onto the net. Basically into web page, mugBook.com say.

Clearly the Raspberry Pi is not an Iot device at that level. Too big, too expensive, too power hungry, too complicated.

On the other hand things like the ESP8266 WIFI module might be: http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/11/17/ ... al-module/. Cheap, small, low power, programmable, network ready.

That makes us wonder what Windows IoT is actually for. Certainly not IoT devices.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 20930
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 9:41 am

Heater wrote:I'm still wondering what an "IoT device" is.

On the one side we have a "thing", say my coffee mug. On the other side we have The Internet.

In between we can imagine some sensors, the temperature and amount of coffee in my coffee mug. And some means of getting sensor data out onto the net. Basically into web page, mugBook.com say.

Clearly the Raspberry Pi is not an Iot device at that level. Too big, too expensive, too power hungry, too complicated.

On the other hand things like the ESP8266 WIFI module might be: http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/11/17/ ... al-module/. Cheap, small, low power, programmable, network ready.

That makes us wonder what Windows IoT is actually for. Certainly not IoT devices.
Can you change your name to NEGATIVITY :?:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/getting-started-with-iot/
Retired disgracefully.....

Heater
Posts: 13685
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 9:54 am

Positively not :)

I'm very enthusiastic about the Pi, the ESP8266, the Espruino, the MicroPython, a billion and one other things going on in the world of technology, software, science, the world at large.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

GerritV
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: St Catharines, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 11:32 am

Heater wrote:Thanks for the input everybody.

Seems the answer to the opening posters question "Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?" is no.

To get into this I need in the order of a hundred dollars for the host operating system. Luckily I have a spare PC for this adventure else I'd need a few hundred more dollars for that.

As for the target Raspberry Pi there are unknown costs and restrictions involved in selling it on on otherwise distributing products based on it. Or even just giving it away.
I spent >$100 to get a Pi, power supply, case and some additions, luckily I already had a PC and Windows :-) So we could agree that getting started with anything on the Pi is not free. Even were I using <gasp> Linux, I would still need a PC wouldn't I since the target Pi would likely be dedicated to my specific application (aka rebooted a lot) .

While that might be your particular situation, there are many more who already have a PC running Windows 7 or 8. Or they might be running Windows on a Mac. And there are lots of Makers using Mac's so I doubt a license fee for Windows 8 or any other real/perceived restrictions would be an issue there.

A company looking to use WinIoT as an embedded OS, which is its real target audience, will also have PC's running Windows 7 or 8. And will already be aware of licensing for embedded systems. There are millions of embedded devices running Windows XP embedded (with extended support from MS), namely in ATM, Point of Sale and kiosks. WinIoT already ships with drivers for bar code scanner and a few other POS necessities. And it includes drivers etc for Zwave and BACnet on AllJoyn Device Bridge (which is why it is of such use to me). The RasPi is not my long term target due to its reliance on SD card for memory, not the best medium for long term reliability as many find out. Thankfully RasPi is not the only hw being targeted, there are at least 2 other choices with more coming.

A Maker, who (whom?) MS is targeting with the free license, might have a PC running Windows 7 or 8. So free for them. Visual Studio CE is free to them as well even if they are a small company. I have been unable to find any restrictions on giving away or selling code created for Windows or WinIoT or any other target using VS CE editions. So free to share or sell that code.
Many Linux and FOSS licenses in general have restrictions on what you can do commercially. Been there, done that and now only use MIT license on my code in the spirit of free and unencumbered.

bottom line, if WinIoT were not useful to me, I would just move on (like I moved on from the *nix world and stay out of those forums) and leave those who do choose to use the WinIoT/RapsPi combo to get on with it.

p.s. btw I am quite willing, in the interest of community, to PayPal you $20 to get you started on the road to WinIoT/RasPi.

Gerrit

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 36327
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 11:37 am

Heater wrote:I'm still wondering what an "IoT device" is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science ... tters.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9nrm8q5eGg

Dr. Stanford-Clark has things like mouse traps that send an alert to his phone when they trap a victim.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

GerritV
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: St Catharines, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 11:43 am

Heater wrote:I'm still wondering what an "IoT device" is.

On the one side we have a "thing", say my coffee mug. On the other side we have The Internet.

In between we can imagine some sensors, the temperature and amount of coffee in my coffee mug. And some means of getting sensor data out onto the net. Basically into web page, mugBook.com say.

Clearly the Raspberry Pi is not an Iot device at that level. Too big, too expensive, too power hungry, too complicated.

On the other hand things like the ESP8266 WIFI module might be: http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/11/17/ ... al-module/. Cheap, small, low power, programmable, network ready.

That makes us wonder what Windows IoT is actually for. Certainly not IoT devices.
There is a class of devices needed in IoT to coordinate, control and monitor those end points that you describe. The endpoints can be tiny as you say, e.g. the programmable Xbee devices (as opposed to the ones usually talked about). There could be thousands of these in a large building, using e.g. BACnet. The control of those is left to larger systems, involving brokers, cloud interfaces, Android and iOS apps, PC apps, etc. Alljoyn is a prime example of how these end points can be tied together into a cohesive control system.
My specific goals are to add Digi.com's Xbee DigiMesh and ZigBee capabilities to Alljoyn on the RasPi or similar hw for a Home Automation and control system in my house. I have already looked at OpenHAB (java) and a few others. Alljoyn software is already on WinIoT on the Pi, so I don't have to deal with compiling that stuff from source. I 'just' need to create a Device Bridge to/from Xbee/DigiMesh to get the benefit of the larger control system, free as in cost, not effort ;) ;)

Gerrit

GerritV
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: St Catharines, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:01 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
Heater wrote:I'm still wondering what an "IoT device" is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science ... tters.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9nrm8q5eGg

Dr. Stanford-Clark has things like mouse traps that send an alert to his phone when they trap a victim.
No doubt with MQTT as the broker somewhere :!: Do you have MQTT onto WinIoT yet :?:

Gerrit

Heater
Posts: 13685
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:02 pm

So we could agree that getting started with anything on the Pi is not free.
Indeed we can.
There are millions of embedded devices running Windows XP embedded
Yes I know, I have seen their blue screens and error dialogues on many public facing devices from ATMs, to Railway and airport information displays, to advertising screens ... :)
I have been unable to find any restrictions on giving away or selling code created for Windows or WinIoT or any other target using VS CE editions.
Nowhere did I suggest there were such restrictions. What I was wondering about is the situation regarding shipping a complete product that includes the OS.
I am quite willing, in the interest of community, to PayPal you $20 to get you started on the road to WinIoT/RasPi.
A very generous offer. I will decline. Thankfully such financial assistance is not needed here. Please make a donation to the charity of your choice instead.

It's not really the cost that was bothering me. Just the assertions of "free". At least we now know what the cost actually is.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

GerritV
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: St Catharines, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:13 pm

Heater wrote:
(snipped)
Yes I know, I have seen their blue screens and error dialogues on many public facing devices from ATMs, to Railway and airport information displays, to advertising screens ... :)
I have been unable to find any restrictions on giving away or selling code created for Windows or WinIoT or any other target using VS CE editions.
Nowhere did I suggest there were such restrictions. What I was wondering about is the situation regarding shipping a complete product that includes the OS.
I am quite willing, in the interest of community, to PayPal you $20 to get you started on the road to WinIoT/RasPi.
A very generous offer. I will decline. Thankfully such financial assistance is not needed here. Please make a donation to the charity of your choice instead.

It's not really the cost that was bothering me. Just the assertions of "free". At least we now know what the cost actually is.
I have to reboot my router (*nix based) several times a month because its web interface goes catatonic. Bad product coders exit in every domain, unfortunately often the OS vendor gets the blame/bad publicity. Even the radiation treatment machine I had used on me needed to be rebooted on occasion while I was on the table!!!

Good idea n the $20, I will make a donation this weekend to a local prostrate cancer run.

I decided long ago that while *nix was free, my time was more valuable to me than it required of me. I have come to the conclusion that the word 'free' is overused, just like the word 'nice' is. They have so many meanings/innuendos now as to be meaningless.

Gerrit

Off to refactor another 500+ lines of C code to C#.......... my daily goal on my quest to join Alljoyn network.

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 36327
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:47 pm

GerritV wrote: No doubt with MQTT as the broker somewhere :!: Do you have MQTT onto WinIoT yet :?:
Andy S-C works for IBM and was one of the inventors of MQTT.

I've not tried MQTT on WinIoT (there's no broker for it) but it's trivial to run a client on any platform.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

Heater
Posts: 13685
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:26 pm

GerritV,

What is about routers that they seem to be universally unreliable? Luckily I found I could flash the three routers here with OpenWRT and they have been stable ever since.

You are right, we can swap anecdotes like that all day and not get anywhere.

*nix takes time, windows takes time, pretty much every OS I have had to work with has taken more fettling than I was happy about. When it comes to crafting code for them it's pretty much a wash.

Free is nice :)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
Posts: 13685
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:30 pm

One could make a simple MQTT broker using node.js which I hear is supported on Windows IoT.

There is the beginning of such a server in my collection of TLS client/server examples: https://github.com/ZiCog/node-tls-example
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

GerritV
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: St Catharines, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:48 pm

Heater wrote:GerritV,

What is about routers that they seem to be universally unreliable? Luckily I found I could flash the three routers here with OpenWRT and they have been stable ever since.

You are right, we can swap anecdotes like that all day and not get anywhere.

*nix takes time, windows takes time, pretty much every OS I have had to work with has taken more fettling than I was happy about. When it comes to crafting code for them it's pretty much a wash.

Free is nice :)
I suspect it is because it is a 'ship it and forget about it, they won't know any different' approach to testing and support for consumer devices. Having opaque support departments that you can't communicate with furthers the problem. Even the reviewers don't actually test things like uPnP which is also poorly implemented. I will have to look for a router that supports OpenWRT, thanks for the reminder. I had great fun/luck with OpenWRT on a Seagate Dockstar running FreeSwitch and FusionPBX.

Heck, I have been having fun with OS's since I worked on a Univac II in the late 1960's. Chief and BOSS on Univac III, TOS on 9300's, Exec 8 on 1100's, CP/M, CP/M68k, HPUX, Solaris, SGI. Yes, they all have 'character' and characters needed care and feeding :-) Fixing the hw ( I repaired Univac mainframes for 15 years) in those days was even more need of fettling. :-)

A great book on 'nice' is The Tyranny of Niceness. Every parent should read that before their offspring get too messed up.

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 36327
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:49 pm

Heater wrote:One could make a simple MQTT broker using node.js which I hear is supported on Windows IoT.

There is the beginning of such a server in my collection of TLS client/server examples: https://github.com/ZiCog/node-tls-example
I'd probably use test.mosquitto.org or mosquitto running on another RPi and stick to running a MQTT pub or sub client on the WinIoT machine.

If NODE.js runs then running NODERED may be possible.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

edCranium
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:59 am

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Sat May 23, 2015 3:57 pm

Like previous posters I'm wary of committing to cost until I find out the basics without risk. If I'm going to upgrade to Win10 on my PC I really should clone my existing HD in case it all goes pear-shaped. I am grateful for the help to find the Windows resources - but it's not really simple and - after watching a couple of youtube videos - I find it still would be at square one.

The "ThingBox" (http://thethingbox.io/) is a much better starting point for me. Download a zipped image, unzip, Win32DiskImager to an 8Gb card. Boot it on a Pi, login to a web page on Mac or PC and deploy an app using Node-RED.

I had a "hello world" Tweeted within 30 mins.

It is released under the WTFPL licence. I love it.

asandford
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:54 pm
Location: Waterlooville

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Tue May 26, 2015 9:48 pm

edCranium wrote:The "ThingBox" (http://thethingbox.io/) is a much better starting point for me. Download a zipped image, unzip, Win32DiskImager to an 8Gb card. Boot it on a Pi, login to a web page on Mac or PC and deploy an app using Node-RED.

I had a "hello world" Tweeted within 30 mins.

It is released under the WTFPL licence. I love it.
I don't understand the need to burn an image when the installation is almost trivial on an already running system, and support seems to be quite poor when an update is required.
FWIW I converted a whole greenhouse management system last year from upteem python scripts in a couple of hours, it's like 'scratch' for IoT.

asandford
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:54 pm
Location: Waterlooville

Re: Is It free M.S. Windows 10 for RB Pi 2 ?

Tue May 26, 2015 9:56 pm

GerritV wrote:No doubt with MQTT as the broker somewhere :!: Do you have MQTT onto WinIoT yet :?:

Gerrit
Your snide comment aside, this is exactly what MQTT was designed for.

Return to “Windows 10 for IoT”