Prometheus
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:23 pm

scep said:

Unfortunately a few* interpret this as "Feel free to unconditionally slag off the product, criticise the Foundation and tell everyone how much better they could have done it." And when they don't quickly get kicked  – as they would in most other forums -  they just keep pushing it.
You forgot the occasional bit of racism that gets thrown in with the slagging-off, too... I mean, it's completely unnecessary...

jamesh
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:24 pm

scep said:


Sylvain said:


Current part of the forum is subtitled : "Share your thoughts about the Raspberry Pi device and the foundation"s work", how can you blame people for doing that ???


Unfortunately a few* interpret this as "Feel free to unconditionally slag off the product, criticise the Foundation and tell everyone how much better they could have done it." And when they don't quickly get kicked  – as they would in most other forums -  they just keep pushing it.

Informed criticism and considered suggestions are always welcome, hence the glasnost. This doesn't mean that it's OK to barge into someone's house, crap on their sofa and call their wife and kids ugly

[*and it is a few - you are right, this forum is very "gentle" and we would like to keep it that way]


Oi! Woz it you wot cacked on my Sofa? Although granted on the wife.
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scep
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:37 pm

JamesH said:


Oi! Woz it you wot cacked on my Sofa? Although granted on the wife.


A big boy did it and ran away.

RAM
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:47 pm

Jessie said:


The gerbers will be released at some point.  So you all can go out and secure a loan against your own properties and get them made wherever you want.

These topics don't get closed just because it is a forbidden topic.  They get closed because they always become uncivalized.  I also want to point out that people need to be sensitive to the feelings of the foundation members who have spent years of their time, their personal money, and unmeasurable passion to make this happen.  Whereas many here have shown up just to spout out their opinion with no real first hand knowlege on the matter.


I've just read through the "we've hit the big red button" discussion and things did get really sour really fast.  No wonder it had to be closed. If things ever get sour in this discussion as they did in the "big red button" one, I would also agree that closing it would be the right thing to do.  The Raspberry Pi team is doing a tremendously good thing with this project, and any abuse based on that is uncalled for.


Right now the foundation is focused on one thing and that is getting the boards out for the original prices of $25/$35.  Then after that getting the educational materials ready for the educational release.  They aren't focused on any hypothetical future releases.  Could there be some small batch UK produced boards at some point?  Absolutly, but right now people have other things on the plate.


If a future release wasn't being considered then indeed it wouldn't be reasonable to discuss how viable a separate batch would be, or any other topic regarding any subsequent batch, version or product. If this is the case, and if this sort of topic pops up this often, then is it possible to mention it in the FAQ? If it was mentioned there I wouldn't have had started this discussion.


Complaining and arguing like this is why many projects never make it off the ground.  Everyone wants to put their 2 cents in but no one wants to spend their own money and time to make it happen.  Let me put it this way, the project dosn't need another member of the management team.


I don't know if you are referring to this discussion in particular, or any of my posts, but I don't believe I did any complaining or arguing. I can tell you that I would never be able to pull this sort of project for multiple reasons, mainly because I am not an EE or have any degree in CS, and therefore wouldn't even know how or where to start.

As I've mentioned before, I really appreciate what the Raspberry Pi people are doing, and I do believe that a lot of good things can come from this project. And I believe others do too. Surely we can agree that, in spite of any number of trolls or any number of unpleasant posts being made to this forum, this project is already successful and has received considerable support and goodwill from the community.

With this being said, I don't believe that it is reasonable to assume that posting a question or suggestion to this forum represents an attempt to dictate how to manage this project, or any other issue related to it. I started this discussion because I was just curious to know how viable it would be to produce some boards in the UK/EU if people like me would be willing to cover the price delta, and it wouldn't be a problem if it ended up not being viable, possible or even desirable.

In either way, I hope you understand that an answer such as "this project doesn't need another member of the management team" is a bit harsh and uncalled for. No matter how frustrating it is to handle  public relations work, these sort of comments can undermine the goodwill achieved by the project as a whole and even generate a bit of negative attention. And this isn't necessary.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:54 pm

djhworld said:


I honestly don't understand why there is so much aversion to the R-PI foundation opting to manufacture the boards in the far east.

Personally, I don't mind if the boards are manufactured in the Far East instead of the EU.  Yet, I would prefer they were manufactured a bit closer to home, even if they cost a bit more, as it would be more beneficial to local industry and economy.
So,this suggestion has nothing to do with any anti-whatever sentiment, and everything to do with being able to improve the local state of affairs.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:09 pm

JamesH said:

The Foundation wouldn't win. All they get is added hassle of sourcing UK manufacture, setting up a pre-order system, and generally having to deal with two streams of manufacture. My personal opinion is that for a employee-less charity, that just too much of a PITA.
That is understandable.

As an aside, it's not the job of the foundation to try and shine a light on why Western manufacture isn't working. 

As I've pointed out before, the "We've started manufacture!" announcement includes the following bit:


(...) the Raspberry Pi Foundation had intended to get all its manufacture done in the UK; after all, we’re a UK charity, we want to help bootstrap the UK electronics industry, and doing our manufacturing in the UK seemed another way to help reach our goals.


If there is a goal to help bootstrap the UK electronics industry then that may not be possible without at least pointing out what is working against that. The release of a public statement regarding the fiscal nonsense was effective in getting the ball rolling. Providing a clean-cut case study which would objectively point out what works and doesn't work would be a good way to drive the point home.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:16 pm

The way i see it whatever the foundation do someone is going to have a problem with it,

raise the price and manufacture in the uk: foundation looses interest or kids (believe me, when your a kid you can do allot with that £5)

manufacture in the east: Exactly what is happening now

Manufacture in the uk and the east, at 2 different prices: Causes a huge headache for the foundation.

Im just glad that manufacture has started. Would i like a board made on my doorsteap. Sure. But i have no problem with manufacture being in china, the mbp on my lap, the tv im watching, the phone i take everywhere with me, all these are made in china, and all of them work perfectly

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:24 pm

RAM said:


djhworld said:


I honestly don't understand why there is so much aversion to the R-PI foundation opting to manufacture the boards in the far east.

Personally, I don't mind if the boards are manufactured in the Far East instead of the EU.  Yet, I would prefer they were manufactured a bit closer to home, even if they cost a bit more, as it would be more beneficial to local industry and economy.
So,this suggestion has nothing to do with any anti-whatever sentiment, and everything to do with being able to improve the local state of affairs.

The reason why the R-PI foundation opted for the far east though was because of barriers the UK government has put in place to enable manufacture at a competitive cost. I don't think it is the responsibility or concern of the foundation to continue purusing these barriers at the expense of them shipping their product which should be their core focus.

By all means, raise the issue with the government, but I don't see why people are whining about this. I actually find it quite laughable to be honest.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:29 pm

Long story short, possible solution to the import duty issue, they shouldn't be paying any:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....-4/#p30045

That's likely not the only cost issue I imagine.

RAM
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:30 pm

psergiu said:


The beta batch was made in UK - and you have seen the prices ...


Yes, that's why I asked about the possibility of charging a bit more to cover the added cost of purchasing one which was manufactured a bit closer to home.


There are two posibilities:

1) If you live in the UK


I don't.


2) Once the 1st batch goes live, the foundation will make all the schematics freely available - there's nobody stopping you to make your own RaspberrEU Pi 100% EU made and sold it to the dozen people willing to pay more.


I would prefer that the Raspberry Pi Foundation was the one profiting from my purchase.

Nevertheless, there is a post in the FAQ section by JamesH, dated from January 13,  in which, as a reply to yet another request for Raspberry Pi's schematics, he says the following:


To get the full SoC documentation you would need to sign an NDA with Broadcom. But you would also need to provide a business model and estimate of how many chips you are going to sell. Less than 100k and they are unlikely to even talk.


So, it doesn't appear that the schematics will ever be made freely available.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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v12cat
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:38 pm

This whole subject is a ludicrous and completely unnecessary side track to the foundations very worthy aims. The original computer wave in the early 80's had nothing whatsoever to do with politics, man made boundaries or corporate greed, just young kids being enthused by a wonderfully interesting and adventurous technology that they could learn about THEMSELVES. Learning without the direction, or more likely, misdirection of our so called leaders.

I, as a 10 year old couldn't give two hoots where my ZX81 was made. It was cheap enough, and simple enough for me to own and explore without worrying about breaking it.

This brilliant initiative is NOT about politics. If it could be made here great, if it can't without compromise then take the politics to the politicians.

This initiative should transcend political garbage IMHO.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:41 pm

RAM said:




To get the full SoC documentation you would need to sign an NDA with Broadcom. But you would also need to provide a business model and estimate of how many chips you are going to sell. Less than 100k and they are unlikely to even talk.


So, it doesn't appear that the schematics will ever be made freely available.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


Schematics != Full SoC Documentation.

The Full SoC documentation is 1000's of pages covering the GPU etc. What the foundation intends to provide is a very cut down version that covers the interfaces on the Raspi accessible from the Arm. Plus schematics of the board if possible.
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:46 pm

max1zzz said:


The way i see it whatever the foundation do someone is going to have a problem with it,


You are a bit confused. As I've said before, I don't really mind if the stuff is manufactured in the Far East. Yet, I would prefer it was manufactured closer to home, so that it could improve the local industry and economy. The main point which has been pointed as the main cause of not being able to manufacture the boards closer to home was its production cost. Therefore, I asked about the possibility of releasing a local build whose price covered the added manufacturing cost, which could take care of that.

So, no one is having a problem with anything the Raspberry Pi foundation is doing.


raise the price and manufacture in the uk: foundation looses interest or kids (believe me, when your a kid you can do allot with that £5)


Again, you are confused.  If you take the time to read this thread you will realize that what has been suggested in this thread was the production of a separate batch manufactured in the UK/EU/West which would reflect the higher production cost in each unit's price. No one suggested that the Raspberry Pi foundation cancelled any manufacturing deal in the Far East, or that everyone should be forced to pay more for their board.


Im just glad that manufacture has started. Would i like a board made on my doorsteap. Sure. But i have no problem with manufacture being in china


That, incidentally, is the point of this discussion.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:46 pm

This topic should just be closed down.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:48 pm

JamesH said:


RAM said:



To get the full SoC documentation you would need to sign an NDA with Broadcom. But you would also need to provide a business model and estimate of how many chips you are going to sell. Less than 100k and they are unlikely to even talk.


So, it doesn't appear that the schematics will ever be made freely available.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


Schematics != Full SoC Documentation.

The Full SoC documentation is 1000's of pages covering the GPU etc. What the foundation intends to provide is a very cut down version that covers the interfaces on the Raspi accessible from the Arm. Plus schematics of the board if possible.



You gave that answer to the following question:



Anyone got schematics; I see the layout?
I see stuff mentioning GPIO pins; but no schematics?

Do I have sign an NDA



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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:51 pm

If I put my fingers in my ears and go "LaLaLaLaLa", will the nasty man go away?

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:51 pm

RAM said:


lworbey said:

Not quite. The following has been said in the "We've started manufacturing!" post:

As you will know if you’ve been reading the forums and the articles on this website, the Raspberry Pi Foundation had intended to get all its manufacture done in the UK; after all, we’re a UK charity, we want to help bootstrap the UK electronics industry, and doing our manufacturing in the UK seemed another way to help reach our goals.


So, it appears that yes, it does have something to do with Raspberry Pi's main purpose.

the key statement here is "we want to help"

wanting to help, and being priced out of being able to help are two completely different beasts - if UK business wanted to do it so badly they would be pricing towards helping themselves!


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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:56 pm

Grumpyoldgit >> Your comments in that topic are really useless. If you are not interested in it, just don't read it !

There are several admin participating, if they would like to close the topic, I don't thing they would need your advices.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:21 pm

RAM said:


You are a bit confused. As I've said before, I don't really mind if the stuff is manufactured in the Far East. Yet, I would prefer it was manufactured closer to home, so that it could improve the local industry and economy. The main point which has been pointed as the main cause of not being able to manufacture the boards closer to home was its production cost. Therefore, I asked about the possibility of releasing a local build whose price covered the added manufacturing cost, which could take care of that.

So, no one is having a problem with anything the Raspberry Pi foundation is doing.


I never ment to aim it at you, i was just saying that there is never a time where everyone will be happy



Again, you are confused.  If you take the time to read this thread you will realize that what has been suggested in this thread was the production of a separate batch manufactured in the UK/EU/West which would reflect the higher production cost in each unit's price. No one suggested that the Raspberry Pi foundation cancelled any manufacturing deal in the Far East, or that everyone should be forced to pay more for their board.



My third point covered this, yes you could do that, if they did two batches it just causes a headache for the foundation (as others have said)

I do not think i was confused on the matter, i was just saying that whatever happens there is always going to be someone unhappy

I will now withdraw from this thread as i feel it is getting a little pointless

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:23 pm

JamesH said:


How much more would people pay?

It would cost AT LEAST another £5 on to to manufacture in the UK. That is a large percentage increase (30%) on the price of the board.



Some Model B beta boards managed to be auctioned off for over £1000.  It is safe to say that some potential customers wouldn't scoff at the idea of spending an extra $5 for a board.

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:25 pm

Hi, first of all many thanks to all for making the Pi happen I can't imagine all the hard work you have and continue to put in.

I know it may well be impossible to build a batch in UK (I will write to my M.P.) but I would be happy to pay extra for it to happen. Perhaps one way to achieve this might be that people order a UK board and pay the extra but receive a standard Chinese board. If enough credit is built up and the hard working people at Pi are prepared to do it a batch could be UK built and sold to the next buyers. If not enough extra credit gets built up the scheme is closed and everyone accepts that the extra they paid for the board will go to the foundation for it's work.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Tony

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:59 pm

RAM said:


JamesH said:


How much more would people pay?

It would cost AT LEAST another £5 on to to manufacture in the UK. That is a large percentage increase (30%) on the price of the board.


Some Model B beta boards managed to be auctioned off for over £1000.  It is safe to say that some potential customers wouldn't scoff at the idea of spending an extra $5 for a board.


SOME potential customers....do you know how many? No? Neither do we. We don't even know how many of the boards we will sell at the quoted price.

And its not worth taking the risk on making boards that are more expensive at this stage if there is even the vaguest chance they won't sell.

The prices of the Ebay boards have no relevance to the price of the release boards-  you should really regards them as completely different products.
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scep
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:01 pm

RAM said:


Some Model B beta boards managed to be auctioned off for over £1000.  It is safe to say that some potential customers wouldn't scoff at the idea of spending an extra $5 for a board.


And a brussel sprout once sold on eBay for £1550 in aid of charity. But this was not a good indication of what people were prepared to pay for sprouts in general, and certainly not a good reason to only sell organic sprouts in Tesco for a higher price than advertised in their window.

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v12cat
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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:11 pm

scep said:

And a brussel sprout once sold on eBay for £1550 in aid of charity. But this was not a good indication of what people were prepared to pay for sprouts in general, and certainly not a good reason to only sell organic sprouts in Tesco for a higher price than advertised in their window.

By far the best post on this subject!!

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Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:23 pm

I welcome GrumpyOldGit's contributions to this thread; what he has written chimes curiously well with the little voice inside my own head. Sylvain; you have said above that you are used to forums with more incivility than this one. We do not wish this forum to resemble those. Keep it up and you'll be banned.

The sprouts observation is a splendid one which I will be making use of myself.
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