gkreidl
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:02 am

chuUK wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:10 pm
Don't do it. Don't buy. Unless you want to spend your days fixing a broken OS like it's 1999.

Gave my last remaning Pi4 to my daughter to play with and even after a reinstall of the OS it still super flaky. She hates it, too.

Had a good one yesterday: The mouse was working but not moving the cursor!? Imagine that in this day and age. I swear I can't remember such as poor computing experience since Win 95/98.

YouTube is a joke for the hardware available. Crashes, screen freezes, lag - oh my god - chromium lags like its running on 512K of memory. Scrolling is like treacle. But hey, their a charity so that's all right then isn't it. Kids learning and tinkers tinkering love it so that's good enough for them.

For desktop use, spend that £50 on an old PC and run Mint on it or get an x86-based SB that cost a few bob more but will be so much easy to use.
The RPi has a built-in troll detector. If it detects a troll it starts doing strange things.
Minimal Kiosk Browser (kweb)
Slim, fast webkit browser with support for audio+video+playlists+youtube+pdf+download
Optional fullscreen kiosk mode and command interface for embedded applications
Includes omxplayerGUI, an X front end for omxplayer

jamesh
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:07 am

chuUK wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:10 pm
Don't do it. Don't buy. Unless you want to spend your days fixing a broken OS like it's 1999.

Gave my last remaning Pi4 to my daughter to play with and even after a reinstall of the OS it still super flaky. She hates it, too.

Had a good one yesterday: The mouse was working but not moving the cursor!? Imagine that in this day and age. I swear I can't remember such as poor computing experience since Win 95/98.

YouTube is a joke for the hardware available. Crashes, screen freezes, lag - oh my god - chromium lags like its running on 512K of memory. Scrolling is like treacle. But hey, their a charity so that's all right then isn't it. Kids learning and tinkers tinkering love it so that's good enough for them.

For desktop use, spend that £50 on an old PC and run Mint on it or get an x86-based SB txhat cost a few bob more but will be so much easy to use.
So what we are dealing with here is a device that is clearly not working correctly yet the person with it is unable to realise that their experience is not what the majority see. And also seems unable to fix the problems or return the device for replacement which is what any normal person would do.

So I suggest you take his 'advice', from whichever orifice it appeared, and treat it with the contempt it deserves.

EDIT: Worth noting that this poster has been asked a number of questions by Pi engineers to try and help him with his problems, and has answered, AFACT, none of them, which does making support rather difficult. I am now suspecting someone who came here specifically to troll, and was never interested in getting help. C'est la vie.
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Fidelius
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:39 am

gkreidl wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:02 am
The RPi has a built-in troll detector. If it detects a troll it starts doing strange things.
Clearly the Pi has one of the best built-in troll-detectors available.

Back on topic: A Pi4 with 4 GB RAM is a great desktop machine. With enough RAM, Linux buffers IO (input/output) data and files so efficiently. The external package "zram-config" helps, too.
More RAM makes the µSD-card limitations less important. Of course a USB3 memory stick or similar improves that a lot.

Our Pi4 flies and runs rock-solid with µSD-card only. The Pi4 has got very impressive hardware and excellent software. Can recommend its 4 GB version to the thread creator. And I wouldn't give back a single bit of its 4 GB RAM.

I do understand Jamesh well, since I too started programming on 8-Bit computers where we virtually knew every byte. So today we veterans indeed despise blown-up applications known as "memory hogs" (Speichersäue). But when in Rome, do as the Romans do. So when today we have to use a browser or similar, 4 GB RAM are very very helpful. My wife always crashed our Pi3 with 1 GB RAM by visiting Amazon with a few browser tabs, because it's one terrible memory hog website and current Linux kernels don't like low-memory-situations. The Pi4 with 4 GB RAM masters this memory-hog trap perfectly. :-)
Last edited by Fidelius on Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

ProDigit
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:42 am

clicky wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:17 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:10 pm
Note that unless you go tab-happy in a browser, it is very likely that a Pi4B2 will be sufficient for typical "PC desktop" uses. The Pi4B4 is more aimed at very heavy programming and development work.
I wouldn't that call heavy :roll:

Heavier? Heavy-ish? Nah, sorry...

Just lightweight, 'enthusiast grade'... 4GB is a bit tight for anything even so slightly serious. Oh, I am not saying not possible - just not comfortable.
I guess there are 2 sides of the story. I would say the same about the pi zero W.
The 4B, I wouldn't buy, because unless you want to watch 4k video footage, hardware decoded, there's no reason to switch over.
The $80 price tag, new accessories to buy, higher power draw, aren't worth the upgrade over a $35 Pi3B+ to me.

The 3B+ with overclocking runs easily at 1,5Ghz, same speed as the 4B stock. And it works just for what I need. 480-720p videos, browsing, YouTube, LCD hat, programming with code oss, all work fine for me.
Pi 3B(+) also has a lot more accessories for sale on the gray market.

I don't use dual monitor, so
The benefits are too small for me to upgrade.

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PeterO
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:58 am

ProDigit wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:42 am
The 3B+ with overclocking runs easily at 1,5Ghz, same speed as the 4B stock.
And about half the performance :roll:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... v8-A_cores
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6sn7
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:46 am

jcyr wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:35 am
jcyr wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:24 am
6sn7 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:11 pm
I bought a Rpi4 with 4G RAM primarily for a low cost NAS for doing rsync backups from various systems.
Configured a set of flash drives on a USB hub RAID10 with a hot spare. Mdraid is not that fast on the Pi so the 4GB of RAM provides enough buffer cache head room to make it worth while. The initial rsync of a whole system is somewhat painful, but the subsequent incremental rsyncs are okay.
Interesting! Have you moved the root filesystem to the RAID array, or is that still on SD?

Edit: Never mind... I doubt that would work for software RAID.
Root filesystem is on SD.
I originally tried RAID-5 and performance was unusable. Calculating the parity is probably too much for the CPU.
RAID-0 is a lot better and I use RAID-10 for redundancy. I see 5-10MB/s using scp of a large file to/from the array. over a 100Mb/s Ethernet link. Copying many files with rsync does 5-10MB/s, is bursty once cache fills up.. It's good enough for my needs.

Local performance using dd with direct IO is shown below.

writes:
dd if=/dev/zero of=$testfile bs=4M count=300 oflag=direct
1258291200 bytes (1.3 GB, 1.2 GiB) copied, 48.4984 s, 25.9 MB/s

reads:
dd if=$testfile of=/dev/null bs=4M
1258291200 bytes (1.3 GB, 1.2 GiB) copied, 6.70122 s, 188 MB/s

I use spinning disks on a larger PC for my main backups but don't feel guilty leaving the Pi running.

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pi-tastic
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:42 pm

maybe the RPI mouse has issues?
He said the cursor wouldn't move.
If i wouldn't have bought 2 of them, when one of them stopped working it was easy for me
to decide something has failed with one of them.

My first 4B 1 gig was a pos it was crashing and over heating it was bad!
since then i bought two 4gig models and they have been working great! They do run hot 52c at idle and quickly get up to 62c 65c, and if i am doing lots of continuous stuff like Facebook or youtube it will quickly start to throttle! I have installed some heatsinks and a fan since then its been sitting at 34c! no matter what i do.

I think we need to accept criticism here and not dismiss them as a troll or bot.
The Pi is far from perfect, Nothing is. There is always room for improvement.

Talking to my boys this morning. I was telling them you can look at the sun coming up and make a decision how you want to feel about it, that is up to you, its your choice.

I would say the things that have always excited me about the Raspberry PI is the low power nature of it, you can run one of these all day from a decent usb powerbank! I am into Amateur Radio ( ham radio ) and it excites me to be self sufficient especially when i am out in the field, running things from solar panels and batteries etc, communicating around the world with a car battery and a wire between 2 trees.

Now all i need is a portable ultra LOW power screen solution with decent resolution. OLED? i don't know.
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jamesh
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:07 pm

pi-tastic wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:42 pm
I think we need to accept criticism here and not dismiss them as a troll or bot.
We do accept criticism*, where we think it's valid. In this case, the user was asked multiple questions by engineers trying to sort his problem, and did not answer any of them, or as far as we can tell, try any of the fixes suggested. So really, what was he trying to achieve? Clearly not a working Pi or or he would have actually done something about it. And now, because he hasn't got it working correctly, he now assumes that everyone else has the same problems, and then goes on to slag off the Pi saying people should not buy it because of his experience. So, what sort of person is that? A normal person, or a troll?

We've sold over 1 MILLION Pi4's. That is a better indicator of whether it's a decent product or not, than one persons bad experience of what might even be a defective bit of HW (yes, it does happen!)


* It runs hot. The official case makes it run hotter. It doesn't USB boot (but will). The micro HDMI connectors are more unusual than full size. The USB-C power issue. FKMS has some rough edges. All valid criticisms. We've been working pretty hard fixing issues since launch! Nothing's perfect, but we are moving in that direction pretty quickly.
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clicky
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:19 pm

This particular forum user gets way to much attention. Shall we now move on and have moderators deal with him, please?

andrum99
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:24 pm

clicky wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:19 pm
This particular forum user gets way to much attention. Shall we now move on and have moderators deal with him, please?
+1

jcyr
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:43 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:07 pm
It runs hot. The official case makes it run hotter. It doesn't USB boot (but will). The micro HDMI connectors are more unusual than full size. The USB-C power issue. FKMS has some rough edges. All valid criticisms. We've been working pretty hard fixing issues since launch! Nothing's perfect, but we are moving in that direction pretty quickly.
Mostly agree, except for the official case. What were you guys thinking? Must have been evident that a nearly sealed enclosure wasn't a good match given the thermal profile of the board!

Did I just read that the latest eeprom image now supports net boot? Kudos for that... I expected it to take much longer.
Last edited by jcyr on Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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pi-tastic
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:17 pm

To go with that James,
Thanks for everyone's hard work!
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jamesh
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:01 pm

jcyr wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:43 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:07 pm
It runs hot. The official case makes it run hotter. It doesn't USB boot (but will). The micro HDMI connectors are more unusual than full size. The USB-C power issue. FKMS has some rough edges. All valid criticisms. We've been working pretty hard fixing issues since launch! Nothing's perfect, but we are moving in that direction pretty quickly.
Mostly agree, except for the official case. What were you guys thinking? Must have been evident that a nearly sealed enclosure wasn't a good match given the thermal profile of the board!

Did I just read that the latest eeprom image now supports net boot? Kudos for that... I expected it to take much longer.
A result of only getting the board and the case together quite close to release I suspect. Design for these things has to proceed in parallel, injection molding jigs are expensive and take time to get right, as do SBC's! I'm sure something will turn up to help.
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wildfire
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:09 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:24 pm
clicky wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:19 pm
This particular forum user gets way to much attention. Shall we now move on and have moderators deal with him, please?
+1
-1

Everyone has the right to speak, it's also our right to debunk what he speaks. And for the record he speaks male bovine excrement IMO.
E8 85 A2 64 C9 64 81 94 64 81 95 64 89 84 89 96 A3
Still NF Shirls

jamesh
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Re: Good reasons to buy the latest Rpi 4 with 4G RAM?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:27 pm

wildfire wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:09 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:24 pm
clicky wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:19 pm
This particular forum user gets way to much attention. Shall we now move on and have moderators deal with him, please?
+1
-1

Everyone has the right to speak, it's also our right to debunk what he speaks. And for the record he speaks male bovine excrement IMO.
Not here. for a while.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

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