RonR
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:00 am

harwoodr wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 am
So does anyone know have they made any progress with booting the raspi4 from usb? yet!
All serious users need this facility

You can do it right now: Running Raspbian on USB Devices : Made Easy. It works on Raspberry Pi 1/2/3/4.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:12 am

So does anyone know have they made any progress with booting the raspi4 from usb? yet!
All serious users need this facility
All serious users know they must wait.
Networking boot users come first.

A serious user will know how to get around this temporary situation, uSD boot/USB run.
Who exactly is a serious user anyway?
What does that mean?
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PeterO
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:12 am

harwoodr wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 am
So does anyone know have they made any progress with booting the raspi4 from usb? yet!
Do you think they will keep it secret when it is ready ? :shock: Be patient !
All serious users need this facility
I doubt it very much !

For now, those that might want it for maybe performance reasons are using the "classic" method of putting just /boot on an sdcard and then mounting the root file system from a USB device.

And look now you've woken up RonR :lol:

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B.Goode
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:20 am

harwoodr wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 am
So does anyone know have they made any progress with booting the raspi4 from usb? yet!
All serious users need this facility


Can it really be three whole days, two of them weekend/non-business days in the UK, since this statement from a Moderator in response to the question "When can we expect USB boot for the Pi 4? "
When its done it will be broadly announced in the blog.
Ref: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 8#p1520896

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:37 am

Michael Mayfield wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:09 am
OK, my first post.

My Pi 4 kit hasn't even arrived yet. Can I whine like so many here? Will the color of the box be as expected. Will I be able to put all the little bitty pieces together. Will smoke pour out.

No USB/SSD native boot. I say "hang the engineers" for not waiting forever for my needs.

Sheesh people, you spend more on a day at Disneyland that the cost of a full Pi 4 kit with everything! Have some fun! If everything doesn't work, big damn deal. I've sick of all the "engineers" that have their little fits because something isn't just right for them. What a bunch of entitled, self-righteous whiners. Take the damn thing out in the yard and stomp on it if it'll makes you feel better. Then drag your sorry ass down to the river and jump in - you can complain about the quality of the water as you die from drowning. I'll send a card to your families.

There, now I feel better. Here, hold my beer.
Great first post! Welcome.

Probably best to calm down for future posts though.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:40 am

harwoodr wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 am
So does anyone know have they made any progress with booting the raspi4 from usb? yet!
All serious users need this facility
No progress. Not even started yet AFAIK
Network boot is being done first.

Strange we are selling multiple tens of thousands of Pi4 per day, but none are going to serious users.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:12 am

harwoodr wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 am
All serious users need this facility
Translation: I need this. I consider myself a "serious user". I make sweeping generalisations.

As I've said in other threads seperate boot and root partitions is normal, as is having them on different devices.

Having /boot on SD has zero impact on the performance of a running system. Sure the initial boot stages will be slower than if done over USB but unless you're rebooting every few seconds that makes no difference.

I do wonder if all the folks complaining about the lack of a bootloader that supports booting over USB have no experience of linux outside of the Pi so consequently believe the only way to install it is burn an image to a device and simply can't cope with or don't believe those of us telling them otherwise.

Either that or they believe that having the boot files on SD somehow slows the USB device that contains the rest of the system to the speed of the SD card.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am

I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.

The RPi4B is now being 'advertised' as a desktop computer, so is expected to work like one. 8-)

P.S. Having a separate boot partition went out of fashion when we could boot from bigger disks, a long, long time ago, it was the 8GB limit, or something, if I remember, that required it.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:53 am

thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:12 am
Having /boot on SD has zero impact on the performance of a running system. Sure the initial boot stages will be slower than if done over USB but unless you're rebooting every few seconds that makes no difference.
Actually, probably faster because the Pi3 (at least) checks for an SD card for a few seconds before looking for USB/network boot. In those few seconds the Linux kernel could have already loaded from SD and be starting the system.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:59 am

k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am
I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.
Mine have booted from various media. The important thing is they booted from a storage device, be it hard disk, flash RAM, Compact Flash card (yes I did that for a few years), USB device or floppy disk. The actual device is irrelevant.
P.S. Having a separate boot partition went out of fashion when we could boot from bigger disks, a long, long time ago, it was the 8GB limit, or something, if I remember, that required it.
I think it was 1024MB in my case, but the seperate /boot is still an option and doesn't hurt. I quite like the way the Pi boots and the fact you can just copy the content of the two partitions to another card (or whatever) and it "just boots" without having to faff around with reinstalling boot sectors and boot loaders.

[edit]
Just to add that for a year or two I had a "farm" of Linux PCs that initially booted from a 16KB ROM image on a CD or floppy disk that then allowed network boot from another PC that acted as a DHCP/DNS/NFS/TFTP server for them. I was one of the highest ranking Seti@Home participants in the UK back then. I believe I was well in the top ten users in the country. (I've probably got some stats logged somewhere).
Last edited by rpdom on Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:02 am

k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am
I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.

The RPi4B is now being 'advertised' as a desktop computer, so is expected to work like one. 8-)

P.S. Having a separate boot partition went out of fashion when we could boot from bigger disks, a long, long time ago, it was the 8GB limit, or something, if I remember, that required it.
Actually, they boot from a BIOS, which then redirects to whatever second stage bootloader is specified. Which is very similar to SD card boot redirecting to USB or network....

And no, the Pi does not need to work like an x86 device to provide a desktop experience. It just needs to have a desktop that works.

And as for 'hobby computer', have you any idea whatever how many Pi get used outside of 'Hobbies'? It's many many Millions.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:13 am

rpdom wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:59 am
I quite like the way the Pi boots and the fact you can just copy the content of the two partitions to another card (or whatever) and it "just boots" without having to faff around with reinstalling boot sectors and boot loaders.
This absolutely AMAZED me when I first tried it. It was an utterly jaw dropping moment!

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:27 am

As a "serous user" I want a bios boot screen and a 15 minute wait for the OS to boot?
How many Pi's does it take before you are regarded as serious.
I only have 30 or so, guess I am not serious enough?
A "serious user" would have counted them and named them all.

Us serious users are having fun?
Nope, this is fun, Pi's are fun.
I am using Pi's to seriously learn stuff, like patience, er and coding ;)
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:41 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:27 am
As a "serous user" I want a bios boot screen and a 15 minute wait for the OS to boot?
Try 45 minutes. That's how long it took for each of two Windows production servers that I looked after to run the memory tests on their 256MB of RAM back in 1999. Due to a memory leak in Microsoft's IIS webserver we had to reboot them every couple of weeks and the only time we could do that was between 2am and 4am on a Sunday morning.

Never mind the two Unix backend servers behind them that took nearly an hour to boot.

A Pi 3B could have easily handled the applications they were running back then with a lot less trouble :)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:52 am

As someone who's using RPi4 with SSD for over a month now (booted from it - or to be more precise has whole root partition on it) I just genuinely don't understand all the fuss!!!

And also, I saw people who never saw Pi4 complaining about lack of USB boot facility and holding off to buy one. Eh?!

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:16 pm

I wouldn't get involved with RPi computers until it had 1GB ram & USB boot, that's why my first was a RPi3B, had to borrow & use a microSD card to 'fix' it, but after that all mine boot from USB, pendrives &/or HDD/SSD.

So, until the RPi4B gets its 'fix', it'll stay in its box, I've got plenty of proper computers, desktops & laptops to use in the mean time.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:28 pm

k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am
I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.
Nope.

First stage bootloader is in the Bios and/or UEFI partition. That looks for the OS's boot loader which can be on any storage media supported by both it and the motherboard. The OS's bootloader then loads the rest of the OS which can also be on any storage media supported by the hardware etc.

I've owned and used systems that boot from floppy (5.25" and 3.5"), HDD (of varying hardware interfaces), SSD, USB, CF, SD (no, not P though I do have a bunch of those), and ROM
The RPi4B is now being 'advertised' as a desktop computer, so is expected to work like one. 8-)
That's about the user experience not the hardware.

If I extend "is expected to work like one" I'd expect the Pi to have user upgradable RAM, mulitple SATA ports, an x86 CPU, multiple PCIe and PCI slots, a case, an internal PSU, run Windows (or MacOS)...
P.S. Having a separate boot partition went out of fashion when we could boot from bigger disks, a long, long time ago, it was the 8GB limit, or something, if I remember, that required it.
Something being unfashionable doesn't mean it's wrong. Seperation of storage can be good practise from an admin and reliability pov.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm

Sheesh, is there any way these "Pi 4 USB boot" threads can be shoved off to a separate forum? (on a separate web site...on a separate planet...)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:33 pm

Thinking about my earlier post (https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 2#p1522317), I'm not lack of linux experience is the entire problem.

I now suspect that a lot of people coming to Pi have never installed an OS onto a bare computer before so are simply unaware of all the nuances and options. After all, it's been a log time since desktops and laptops came without a pre-installed OS.

As for why the question keeps getting asked? impatience and not borthering to search the forums and/or the internet before posting would be my guess.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:36 pm

k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:16 pm
I wouldn't get involved with RPi computers until it had 1GB ram & USB boot, that's why my first was a RPi3B, had to borrow & use a microSD card to 'fix' it, but after that all mine boot from USB, pendrives &/or HDD/SSD.

So, until the RPi4B gets its 'fix', it'll stay in its box, I've got plenty of proper computers, desktops & laptops to use in the mean time.
That seems both shortsighted and self harming. Still it's you choice it's just a shame that deprives someone else of a perfectly good 4B.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:34 pm

k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:16 pm
I wouldn't get involved with RPi computers until it had 1GB ram & USB boot, that's why my first was a RPi3B, had to borrow & use a microSD card to 'fix' it, but after that all mine boot from USB, pendrives &/or HDD/SSD.

So, until the RPi4B gets its 'fix', it'll stay in its box, I've got plenty of proper computers, desktops & laptops to use in the mean time.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:56 pm

on a positive note, it sure is pretty awesome they threw a usb3 controller on the PCIE bus!
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:04 pm

echmain wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm
Sheesh, is there any way these "Pi 4 USB boot" threads can be shoved off to a separate forum? (on a separate web site...on a separate planet...)
This is that thread. I would move it offplanet, but Musk hasn't occupied Mars yet.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 pm

thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:28 pm
k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am
I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.
Nope.

First stage bootloader is in the Bios and/or UEFI partition. That looks for the OS's boot loader which can be on any storage media supported by both it and the motherboard. The OS's bootloader then loads the rest of the OS which can also be on any storage media supported by the hardware etc.
Actually, that's a good way to explain this: the uSD card is the ROM-based BIOS, just in a handy, easy to repair, removable form-factor. Bung a second-stage uBoot on it -- not sure if there's a Pi4 version of that yet, admittedly -- and you have all the usual abilities.

And as for being a serious user: I've been quite a serious user of these things since their initial release: the machines at that point neatly filled a very interesting hole in the market, and have been going from strength to strength ever since. I have never once booted or needed to boot a Pi from a USB device. I *do* want to boot my Pi 4 from network, but that's for ease of management, and integration with the rest of my network; ATM I have /boot mounted on the uSD card, and / over NFS as usual. Lets me snapshot the rootfs without trouble, but leaves /boot vulnerable; it also means that if I forget to regenerate the initrd after a kernel update, I have marginally more trouble fixing it than

Code: Select all

chroot /var/local/nfsroot/pi4
mkinitramfs -o /boot/initrd.gz $version
exit
and rebooting the Pi.

But yeah. USB? Not so much.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:01 pm

dickon wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 pm
thagrol wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:28 pm
k-pi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:44 am
I've been using Linux & BSD as my computer O/S since 1999, my computers boot from internal disk, or external USB disks & pendrives - it is the normal way to boot a mainstream computer - only the RPi, & similar hobby boards, boots from a microSD card.
Nope.

First stage bootloader is in the Bios and/or UEFI partition. That looks for the OS's boot loader which can be on any storage media supported by both it and the motherboard. The OS's bootloader then loads the rest of the OS which can also be on any storage media supported by the hardware etc.
Actually, that's a good way to explain this: the uSD card is the ROM-based BIOS, just in a handy, easy to repair, removable form-factor. Bung a second-stage uBoot on it -- not sure if there's a Pi4 version of that yet, admittedly -- and you have all the usual abilities.

And as for being a serious user: I've been quite a serious user of these things since their initial release: the machines at that point neatly filled a very interesting hole in the market, and have been going from strength to strength ever since. I have never once booted or needed to boot a Pi from a USB device. I *do* want to boot my Pi 4 from network, but that's for ease of management, and integration with the rest of my network; ATM I have /boot mounted on the uSD card, and / over NFS as usual. Lets me snapshot the rootfs without trouble, but leaves /boot vulnerable; it also means that if I forget to regenerate the initrd after a kernel update, I have marginally more trouble fixing it than

Code: Select all

chroot /var/local/nfsroot/pi4
mkinitramfs -o /boot/initrd.gz $version
exit
and rebooting the Pi.

But yeah. USB? Not so much.
You don't need uboot. Instead load a preliminary Linux kernel from the SD card to set things up and then chain load the final Linux kernel from the USB drive.

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