Leeloo
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(pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:56 pm

Hellos,

I have seen a couple of people throwing around the pi4 is "entry level pc performance" personally I would say (and google said too) the current sub $100 intel i3 and ryzen 3 are 'entry level' but slower things like quad core atom cpus exist so wondering what exactly is entry level pc performance ? what cpu does the pi4 stand up to in raw performance?

Andyroo

Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:06 am

Liz at Blitz City DIY video here has run some of the Phoronix suite on her test Pi but I cannot find any details on the Openbenchmark site at https://openbenchmarking.org/

From what I can see, the encode to FLAC scores the Pi 4B single core as 107 whereas a Core i3 8100 came in at either 9.8 or 33 depending on which test was run :cry:

The problem is any benchmark is subjective and never represents real life - for me it has to be user experience - can I open documents , surf the web and listen to music defines how good a computer is. Compile time is irrelevant (currently using a Zero W for some dev work) and it all will be stuffed by memory / disk / USB throughput anyway :lol:

Andyroo

Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:03 am

Sysbench figure shown here https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... 4-cluster/

Looks like the 9 was the correct comparison figure :cry:

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DavidS
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:23 am

Entry level PC is a currently marketed Personal Computer that meets the needs of the target user, and is the lowest end system to meet those needs.

So if the user needs something to do some 16 color 320x200 graphics at 10FPS and that is the most intense application for that user, then one of the many currently available WDC65C816S (16 bit version of the 6502) that meets the graphics requirements is an entry level PC (running at about 5MIPS at 16MHz).

If the user needs to do Real Time Ray Tracing at 320x200@32BPP with enough processing time left over for some simple game logic, and still needs to do other higher resolution modern desktop tasks (JS based web browsing, 3D modeling, 3D Slicing, video Streaming, etc) then an entry level PC would probably be a Raspberry Pi 1 B+.

So the comparison of entry level PC is really meaningless.
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dancytron
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:43 am

I took it to mean the subjective performance of an entry level laptop with Windows.

An entry level laptop is going to have Windows 10, which is going to be a lot slower than Linux, especially Linux with a light LXDEish desktop like Raspbian.

So a i3 Windows 10 laptop may be objectively "faster" on benchmark tests but subjectively "slower" for browsing, using Office type applications etc.

MisterEd
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:21 am

I tried running Scratch 3.0 online with the Raspberry Pi 3B+. The computer froze because it ran out of RAM.
What I don't know was whether the problem was with Scratch 3.0 or the Chromium browser.

Maybe a Raspberry Pi 4 with 2 or 4GB RAM will run Scratch 3.0 online OK.

This is all to say that previous Raspberry Pi's with only 1GB RAM may have been hard to compare with entry level PCs with more RAM. I would be interested to see how a Raspberry Pi 4 with 4GB RAM compares against a entry level PC with the same amount of RAM.

Moonmarch
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:19 am

The RPI series of computers including the RPI4 will use open source software, entry level computers you purchase from Newegg.com or Tigerdirect.com, or any other electronics supplier will use Windows 10 64 bit OS, don't know if Windows 32 bit is even around anymore, every personal computer sold from these stores will have at least 4GB of ram, which can be upgraded if there are enough memory spaces available.

You can always purchase a $100 business computer to fulfill the basic home computer role, people use the RPI computer for electronic projects, actually one of those projects can include how to build a cheap home computer, everyone knows how to use Windows, download the executable program then install the program, you can run the program by double clicking on the desktop icon.

Entry level computer means you should not need to wait more than 2 minutes for the computer to boot, you shouldn't need to wait 2 minutes for the web browser to load or change websites, now on the RPI waiting at least 2 minutes for the computer to respond is not a surprise, because the RPI is a cheap computer that uses open source software, if the RPI is not productive enough, then use a cheap business computer instead.

geev03
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:12 am

don't know if Windows 32 bit is even around anymore
Yes, a touch tablet with 32 bit Windows 10 ( Processor: Intel Bay Trail-T Quad Core Z3735F 1.83GHz processor.
Operating System: Windows 10-1903.
Memory: 1GB LPDDR3.
Display: 8-inch 16:10 IPS HD (1280 x 800) with 5 point multi-touchscreen.
Graphics: Integrated Intel HD Graphics.
Storage: 32GB eMMC.
Camera: Front 2MP and rear 2MP) is currently in use . It is much faster( and usable) than WoA , Windows 10, on Raspberry Pi 3B .
Last edited by geev03 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

jamesh
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:17 am

Moonmarch wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:19 am
The RPI series of computers including the RPI4 will use open source software, entry level computers you purchase from Newegg.com or Tigerdirect.com, or any other electronics supplier will use Windows 10 64 bit OS, don't know if Windows 32 bit is even around anymore, every personal computer sold from these stores will have at least 4GB of ram, which can be upgraded if there are enough memory spaces available.

You can always purchase a $100 business computer to fulfill the basic home computer role, people use the RPI computer for electronic projects, actually one of those projects can include how to build a cheap home computer, everyone knows how to use Windows, download the executable program then install the program, you can run the program by double clicking on the desktop icon.

Entry level computer means you should not need to wait more than 2 minutes for the computer to boot, you shouldn't need to wait 2 minutes for the web browser to load or change websites, now on the RPI waiting at least 2 minutes for the computer to respond is not a surprise, because the RPI is a cheap computer that uses open source software, if the RPI is not productive enough, then use a cheap business computer instead.
I've never waited for more than about 45s for a Pi to boot - usually much faster. And webpages on the pi4 load as well as they do on my i7 laptop....plays YouTube, runs Google Drive, LibreOffice etc

In my book, that makes it good enough for most work desktop needs.

And where do you buy a new business computer for $100?
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k-pi
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:25 am

I've used both RPi3B & 3B+ as desktop replacements, mainly web browsing & music, a bit slow for video playback, owing to lack of ram, I think.

So, if you get a 4GB RPi4, it should be pretty much the equivalent of a basic computer running MS O/S.

ejolson
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:15 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:17 am
Moonmarch wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:19 am
You can always purchase a $100 business computer to fulfill the basic home computer role
And where do you buy a new business computer for $100?
In December I bought the cheapest laptop in the store, but it was more than US$100.

That laptop has a dual-core AMD A6-9225 APU that is 33 times faster than the original Pi according to these results. The same pichart program running here shows the Pi 4B is 27 times faster than the original Pi. By this measure the 4B achieves about 80% the performance of a recently-purchased entry-level notebook computer. Networking speed and RAM are comparable. On the other hand, the integrated Radeon R4 GPU in the notebook is likely better than the VC6, except that it crashes when coming out of sleep mode.

Moonmarch
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:29 pm

Geev03, don't know if the Windows 32 bit tablet should be recommended to anyone, this tablet is probably not a HP, Lenovo, Acer, etc., no instead this tablet is some generic brand, I've seen a video on YouTube about cheap Windows tablets before.

jamesh, I was not talking about the RPI being slow, no instead I was talking about slow computers overall, I have used many laptops over the years, using any slow computer means waiting several minutes for the computer to respond, more specifically school computers at the library which were incredibly slow, talking about 2005, I've used netbooks before not the Google Chrome version, those computers were almost unusable for $300.

The $100 computer I mentioned was actually a refurbished core2duo computer or core2quad, if you spend $150 on a computer you will have a computer with the core I3 or the core I5 and possibly more ram, here is a link to the computers:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... 96570&Sku=

https://www.newegg.com/hp-compaq-pro-63 ... 95Z9D79762

Now these computers are not my first choice for a computer, I actually build my own computers from various parts, I saw videos on YouTube about video game console emulation, randomgaminginhd, Linus tech tips, ETA prime, etc., how to turn a old computer into a gaming computer, video cards are not always expensive either, which is the reason why people should not underestimate old computers, these old computers paired with a powerful graphics card can run modern day video games, my old computer used the Intel core I5 650 that computer lasted 8 years.

geev03
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:46 am

Moonmarch wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:29 pm
Geev03, don't know if the Windows 32 bit tablet should be recommended to anyone, this tablet is probably not a HP, Lenovo, Acer, etc., no instead this tablet is some generic brand, I've seen a video on YouTube about cheap Windows tablets before.

I fully agree with you that Windows 32 bit tablet is to be avoided. My reason for that is lack of WsL on 32bit Windows, stopping the interested user from experiencing the best of Linux and MS Windows at the same time.

The 8" tablet I mentioned is by Linx e.g.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Linx-EM-I8011- ... B00O636WPY and they have moved on to bigger screen sizes and appear to be popular but not to same the level of the brands you mentioned.

Moonmarch
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:29 pm

I didn't say a Windows 32 bit computer is not usable or slower than a Windows 64 bit computer, I was talking about how Windows 10 64 bit is the operating system installed on new computers, you don't see Windows 32 bit computers being sold anymore, you need to purchase a Windows 10 license key then install Windows 32 bit to run Windows 10 on a computer, I assume Windows 32 bit will stop receiving updates in the future, didn't say that is based on any announcement from Microsoft.

People should buy computers from main computer manufacturers because of software/driver support, don't know what is installed on a different computer brands, anyhow if anyone was interested in a entry level computer for comparison reasons, here is a Microsoft Surface tablet:

https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Surfac ... pc&sr=1-40

wh7qq
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:25 am

My current x86-64 is pretty much "entry level" by my lights. It is an Asrock J3455 mobo with 4G of LPDDR3 and boots from a 240G SSD. The mobo runs a Celeron 3455 4 core CPU. This may be a basis for comparison but not documented with benchmark testing.

I use the onboard Intel Graphics and the onboard Realtek ethernet (1G). I power it from a 12v supply to a fanless supply that mounts directly on the power connector. From the Grub screen boot to Mint 18 login takes under 20 seconds and 27 seconds from turn on. I find it is about as fast for normal browsing as my RPi 3B. I did not get a 3B+ as it suffers from the same 1G memory in spite of the speed increases but a 4 G RPi4 is almost sure to be faster with no lock-ups when too many tabs are open (more than 2 or 3 for the 1 G RPi3B). My speed limiting factor on browsing may be my satellite latency which runs typically about 700 msec.

I needed silence, low power usage and low starting cost...mobo, memory and power supply about $100 (already had the 22" HDMI, SSD and case, keyboard and rodent). Power consumption overall is a bit less than the RPi for having a "suspend" mode that shuts off the monitor. It would be hard to get an equivalent full system for less than twice that. So the RPi4 is still a bargain but some niggling details like a proper suspend mode and other niceties of a full xfce desktop will keep me from buying an RPi4 right away. Eventually....

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HawaiianPi
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:02 am

There is no set-in-stone definition of an entry level PC. It's whatever you decide it is.

Comparing synthetic benchmarks rarely has any value in real life performance. Benchmarks that do actual work are more valid, but often not cross-platform compatible (Windows Office benchmarks are useless to a Pi user). Comparisons need to be done with something that's not hardware architecture or operating system dependant.

Web browser task based benchmarks are probably the best tools we have available at this time, and are often used to compare Chromebook performance. Admittedly they're not ideal on Pi models with little RAM, but the Pi4 with 2 or 4GB of RAM should yield some useful results.

Speedometer 2.0 and the older Octane 2.0 benchmarks run on Pi computers.
There was a recent thread with Octane scores: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 3&t=243783

Would be nice to see Speedometer 2.0 benchmarks, since Octane is no longer supported and Speedometer is the recommended replacement.
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wh7qq
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:47 am

Not sure how this relates to the RPi 4 but my "speedometer 2.0" ran a ripping 16.2 mean. Considering my long satellite latency is a factor so it may be a poor point of reference.

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DavidS
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:26 am

Moonmarch wrote:The RPI series of computers including the RPI4 will use open source software, entry level computers you purchase from Newegg.com or Tigerdirect.com, or any other electronics supplier will use Windows 10 64 bit OS, don't know if Windows 32 bit is even around anymore, every personal computer sold from these stores will have at least 4GB of ram, which can be upgraded if there are enough memory spaces available.
Every computer that is purchased from Newegg among people I know comes without an OS (or in a few cases with Linux), with the expectation that you will install your perfered non-Win OS after you put the computer together.
Entry level computer means you should not need to wait more than 2 minutes for the computer to boot, you shouldn't need to wait 2 minutes for the web browser to load or change websites, now on the RPI waiting at least 2 minutes for the computer to respond is not a surprise, because the RPI is a cheap computer that uses open source software, if the RPI is not productive enough, then use a cheap business computer instead.
Do you have your RPi clocked down to 1MHz? And how if so?

It never takes more than a few seconds to parse even the worse pages on a Raspberry Pi 1B at 500MHz, so your measure even puts a RiscPC or Amiga 4000 at the entry level PC level. For that matter by your numbers an Amiga 1200 would be above entry level PC performance.
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gordon77
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:32 am

", now on the RPI waiting at least 2 minutes for the computer to respond is not a surprise, "

In 'normal' ( not downloading or using make) use l don't believe l've ever had to wait 2 minutes on a pi to respond.

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r3d4
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:26 am

probably depends who you ask :roll:

in my experience 'entry level performance': 133/233mhz 16bit gfx and no maths coprocessor !

see also : https://archive.org/details/ComputerSho ... riArticles

---
DavidS wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:26 am
Do you have your RPi clocked down to 1MHz? And how if so?
its probably possible with JavaScript :lol:


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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:27 am

geev03 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:12 am
don't know if Windows 32 bit is even around anymore
Yes, a touch tablet with 32 bit Windows 10 ( Processor: Intel Bay Trail-T Quad Core Z3735F 1.83GHz processor.
Operating System: Windows 10-1903.
Memory: 1GB LPDDR3.
Display: 8-inch 16:10 IPS HD (1280 x 800) with 5 point multi-touchscreen.
Graphics: Integrated Intel HD Graphics.
Storage: 32GB eMMC.
Camera: Front 2MP and rear 2MP) is currently in use . It is much faster( and usable) than WoA , Windows 10, on Raspberry Pi 3B .
Though ironically the Z3735F-based devices (I've had tablets and compute sticks based on them and the newer Z8350) seem to be far poorer in video replay terms. I didn't ever successfully get Windows to play a 1080i h.264 TV recording with decent deinterlacing on a Windows 10 32-bit install on either of these platforms (I used many different packages - Kodi and MPC came close but were hit or miss) I think there are also issues in these devices with thermal throttling. (The Pipo X7 suffered terribly from it)

The previous Pis were better in the AV replay role than the Windows 10 32 bit Atoms in my experience - the 4B is even better still.

It depends what you want your 'entry level PC' to do I guess. So far I've been impressed with the Pi 4B's speed - particularly at the price point;.

noggin
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:33 am

Leeloo wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:56 pm
Hellos,

I have seen a couple of people throwing around the pi4 is "entry level pc performance" personally I would say (and google said too) the current sub $100 intel i3 and ryzen 3 are 'entry level' but slower things like quad core atom cpus exist so wondering what exactly is entry level pc performance ? what cpu does the pi4 stand up to in raw performance?
Where do you see current i3 Intel PCs available for <$100? The cheapest New i3 CPU I can see on NewEgg in the US is a $75 i3-2130 Sandy Bridge (a pretty old model - but being sold as new). You'd have to find a motherboard and RAM for $25 to get that for $100?

The cheapest i3-8xxx or i3-9xxx series CPU looks to be an i3-8100 at $130?

Not that it's really comparable with a Pi 4B SoC. I think comparisons have been made more with Core2Duo era CPUs?

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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:59 am

r3d4,
its probably possible with JavaScript
Why does everyone bash on Javascript like that?

The Javascript engines are amazingly performant now a days.

Speaking of which, given the work I'm doing now a days an entry level computer for me has to be able to render this https://www.babylonjs.com/demos/v8/ at least at 40 frames per second.

And get a result out of this https://otaniemi.conveqs.fi:3000/public/fibo.html for an input of 4000000 in a few seconds.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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HawaiianPi
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Re: (pi4) so how fast is 'entry level pc performance'

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:03 am

wh7qq wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:47 am
Not sure how this relates to the RPi 4 but my "speedometer 2.0" ran a ripping 16.2 mean. Considering my long satellite latency is a factor so it may be a poor point of reference.
On what system?

I seem to recall my Pi 3B+ scoring single digits. Something like 8.76 if my grey matter is not failing me tonight. My Chromebook scores around 65, and my Win10 budget gaming laptop scores a little over 100. That's off the top of my head, so don't quote me. Whenever my Pi4Bs arrive I'll test again to compare them all under similar conditions.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

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