MuntyScruntfundle
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Next raspberry ethernet?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:01 pm

Will the next pi have a dedicated network chipset?

I've been doing some testing with the 3b+ against the Tinker Board S. All I can say is "Bloody hell!"

A simple iperf test one at a time to a central Windows PC running the Windows 10 unix install returns Bandwidth of 293 for the Rasp, 949 for the Tink.
Running both boards together is even more surprising, Rasp 87, Tink 910.

The Rasp is getting hammered. Why it gets battered so much when there's other network traffic I'm not sure. On this test alone my Rasp Mysql server is going to be replaced with this Tink, the extra network bandwidth available is quite a shock for such a small thing, it's true 1000.

I've also run some simple sys bench tests on the cpu, the Tinker comes out on top, but not by much.

The Tinker drawbacks however are pretty considerable. The Raspian OS is well developed, constantly updated and improved, the support is good and the forums are second to none. None of these can be claimed for the Tinker, support is patchy and you're reliant on a branch of Debian that doesn't appear to be very well looked after.

All said and done, I love my little Raspberries, I just wish the network were dedicated.

And if the next version comes out with a true 1000 base interface, does anyone out there want to buy 130 3b+'s? !!

MuntyScruntfundle
Posts: 223
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:04 pm

I should add a caveat.

There are many imgs available for the Tinker, for my tests I was trying to keep the OSs as close as possible. Rasbian being a Debian branch, it seemed appropriate to put Debian on the Tinker.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:27 pm

MuntyScruntfundle wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:04 pm
I should add a caveat.

There are many imgs available for the Tinker, for my tests I was trying to keep the OSs as close as possible. Rasbian being a Debian branch, it seemed appropriate to put Debian on the Tinker.

TinkerOS is actually a fork of Debian ARMHF developed by Asus
:shock:
Retired disgracefully.....
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:30 pm

MuntyScruntfundle wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:01 pm
Will the next pi have a dedicated network chipset?

I've been doing some testing with the 3b+ against the Tinker Board S. All I can say is "Bloody hell!"

A simple iperf test one at a time to a central Windows PC running the Windows 10 unix install returns Bandwidth of 293 for the Rasp, 949 for the Tink.
Running both boards together is even more surprising, Rasp 87, Tink 910.

The Rasp is getting hammered. Why it gets battered so much when there's other network traffic I'm not sure. On this test alone my Rasp Mysql server is going to be replaced with this Tink, the extra network bandwidth available is quite a shock for such a small thing, it's true 1000.

I've also run some simple sys bench tests on the cpu, the Tinker comes out on top, but not by much.

The Tinker drawbacks however are pretty considerable. The Raspian OS is well developed, constantly updated and improved, the support is good and the forums are second to none. None of these can be claimed for the Tinker, support is patchy and you're reliant on a branch of Debian that doesn't appear to be very well looked after.

All said and done, I love my little Raspberries, I just wish the network were dedicated.

And if the next version comes out with a true 1000 base interface, does anyone out there want to buy 130 3b+'s? !!

You will know the answer when the next version of the Raspberry Pi SBC is announced in the Official Blog.

A public Roadmap has never been offered :?
Retired disgracefully.....
This at present is my daily "computer" https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/Chromebit-CS10/

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:40 pm

MuntyScruntfundle wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:01 pm
Will the next pi have a dedicated network chipset?

I've been doing some testing with the 3b+ against the Tinker Board S. All I can say is "Bloody hell!"

A simple iperf test one at a time to a central Windows PC running the Windows 10 unix install returns Bandwidth of 293 for the Rasp, 949 for the Tink.
Running both boards together is even more surprising, Rasp 87, Tink 910.

The Rasp is getting hammered. Why it gets battered so much when there's other network traffic I'm not sure. On this test alone my Rasp Mysql server is going to be replaced with this Tink, the extra network bandwidth available is quite a shock for such a small thing, it's true 1000.

I've also run some simple sys bench tests on the cpu, the Tinker comes out on top, but not by much.

The Tinker drawbacks however are pretty considerable. The Raspian OS is well developed, constantly updated and improved, the support is good and the forums are second to none. None of these can be claimed for the Tinker, support is patchy and you're reliant on a branch of Debian that doesn't appear to be very well looked after.

All said and done, I love my little Raspberries, I just wish the network were dedicated.

And if the next version comes out with a true 1000 base interface, does anyone out there want to buy 130 3b+'s? !!

The Raspberry Pi 3B+ SBC like all RPis with Ethernet go via a USB / Ethernet Chipset, therefore it is USB2 bottlenecked:

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blogs/jeff ... networking
Retired disgracefully.....
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:02 pm

The basic answer has been given. I'd just like to make a few general points...

1. Threads like this tend to devolve to, not shouting matches, but rather poor relations between people to the point of getting locked fairly quickly.

2. The only people that know the features going into the next Pi work at the RPF and RPT. They don't talk about that.

3. Any proposal for adding new hardware on the boards is unlikely to receive a warm reception. Such things add cost and board complexity. (We are given to understand that routing traces is already a nightmare, so adding things that need traces or punch holes in the board that need to be routed around are not looked upon favorably.)

4. While GbE has been a frequently requested upgrade for years, it probably isn't a particularly high priority. Personally, while GbE might be a nice feature, there are other upgrades that, I think, would be of far more overall benefit...though at least one of those would make GbE much more feasible as a side benefit.

5. GbE that *doesn't* run through the USB hub would require a separate interface on the SoC and either having the somewhat difficult to integrate on the same silicon circuitry on the SoC, or your proposed external add-on circuitry as well as an integrated data interface. Either way, it takes money.

LTolledo
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:05 am

maybe in RPi6B+?

....or later models......?

.... maybe....
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:36 am

Retired disgracefully.....
This at present is my daily "computer" https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/Chromebit-CS10/

Marko73
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:21 am

I'm half expecting to get shot down in flames for saying this, but please believe me when I say beforehand that I've had tons of use out of the various models of Raspberry Pi that I've bought over the years (about 10 devices in total, spread over Pi 1, 2, 3 and Zero. I have 5 at present). Having said that, I was kind of hoping the Pi 4 would be released this year. It's been 3 years now since the Pi 3. Yes, I'm aware that new devices take time to develop but to be honest, I never felt the Pi 3 should have existed at all. It was not a big enough upgrade over the Pi 2 in my view, and the benefits of the 64 bit CPU have never been properly utilised. The news that there will be no Pi 4 this year is a blow, and I think it's going to be the final thing that tips me over the edge into moving to an alternative SBC. Indeed, I've already started looking for a suitable one.

I'll still be keeping the various Pi that I have but they won't be used as much.

jamesh
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:46 am

Not going to saw what's in the Pi4, but it would be worthwhile noting that we've been fully aware of the current architecture limitations for years, not just in networking.

As for speed of design and release, it's not the board itself that takes time, but development of a suitable SOC. That is a multi year project.
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wildfire
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:04 am

From that link...
However, the Pi Zero and Zero W have the same, single-core processor as the original Pi 1 that came out in 2012, and they sport just 512GB of RAM.
:shock:

I want one
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rpdom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:10 am

wildfire wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:04 am
they sport just 512GB of RAM.
:lol:

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:03 pm

Marko73 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:21 am
I'm half expecting to get shot down in flames for saying this, but please believe me when I say beforehand that I've had tons of use out of the various models of Raspberry Pi that I've bought over the years (about 10 devices in total, spread over Pi 1, 2, 3 and Zero. I have 5 at present). Having said that, I was kind of hoping the Pi 4 would be released this year. It's been 3 years now since the Pi 3. Yes, I'm aware that new devices take time to develop but to be honest, I never felt the Pi 3 should have existed at all. It was not a big enough upgrade over the Pi 2 in my view, and the benefits of the 64 bit CPU have never been properly utilised. The news that there will be no Pi 4 this year is a blow, and I think it's going to be the final thing that tips me over the edge into moving to an alternative SBC. Indeed, I've already started looking for a suitable one.

I'll still be keeping the various Pi that I have but they won't be used as much.
I agree on the initial points, but not that the Pi3 shouldn't have been launched. The Pi3B and Pi3B+ added one important and then one minor enhancement. To wit, on board WiFi--something that I'm indifferent to, but many people wanted--and the PoE header on the Pi3B+. As far as upgrade over the Pi2B, keep in mind that the Pi3B was about a 60% speed jump over the Pi2Bv1.1...which is what existed at the time. The Pi2Bv1.2 just narrowed the gap, somewhat. They also led to a really big jump from the A+ to Pi3A+. That both clearly differentiates the A+ from the Pi0W and removes a bottleneck fro applications where the single USB port was too restrictive and a hub undesirable.

And, yes, I'd've liked seeing the Pi4B this year, but that isn't going to happen. Even when the Pi4B launches, I don't expect to see a 64-bit Raspbian for some time. What is really needed to maintain the unity of the "ecosystem" is an upgrade to the Pi0/Pi0W (and you'll notice that Dr. Upton addressed that in the Tom's Hardware interview).

Heater
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:21 pm

Marko73,
I never felt the Pi 3 should have existed at all. It was not a big enough upgrade over the Pi 2 in my view...
Given that the price remained the same and it had useful advances, speed, WiFi, 64 bit, I see no reason the Pi 3 should not have existed. It certainly does no harm.
..., and the benefits of the 64 bit CPU have never been properly utilised.
64 bit has been very useful here. I'm very grateful for it.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Marko73
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:23 am

Heater wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:21 pm
64 bit has been very useful here. I'm very grateful for it.
I'm curious - what 64-bit OS are you using?

Heater
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:44 am

I'm using Debian as provided by babarni https://github.com/bamarni/pi64

Not ideal as it is a bit dated and not being updated. Does not run on a Pi 3B +.

An updated fork is here: https://github.com/Crazyhead90/pi64

There are of course other 64 bit options now.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jahboater
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:41 am

I use this fast and well supported 64-bit distro by Sakaki:

https://github.com/sakaki-/gentoo-on-rpi3-64bit

It works perfectly on the Pi3B+

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:49 am

I use this fast and well supported 64-bit distro by Sakaki:
Sakaki has done a Gentoo64 and a Raspbian/Debian64/32, both are excellent.

By the time Pi4 is out aarch64 on Pi3B+ will be solid and very mainstream.
Unless RPF adds very weird stuff to the Pi4 it should just run a (or many) 64bit OS's from day one.
Everything will be better and faster?

If I make any more predictions this will be locked.
Did anyone notice what Scott Grimes suggested should be painted on the side of new Ship?.
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rpdom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:49 am
Did anyone notice what Scott Grimes suggested should be painted on the side of new Ship?.
The Orville, Series 1, Episode 1 around 6:40minutes, "Flames and.....".
I'll have to rewatch it to find out.

chwe
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:33 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:27 pm
MuntyScruntfundle wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:04 pm
I should add a caveat.

There are many imgs available for the Tinker, for my tests I was trying to keep the OSs as close as possible. Rasbian being a Debian branch, it seemed appropriate to put Debian on the Tinker.

TinkerOS is actually a fork of Debian ARMHF developed by Asus
:shock:
TinkerOS is not really a fork.. It's likely that they use rockchips rk-rootfs-build script (https://github.com/rockchip-linux/rk-rootfs-build) with some adjustments. A qemu, debootstrap script.. More or less similar the way raspian gets built.. It grabs the packages from debians repository and you're done (okay.. raspian has it's own repo due to backwards compatibility)..
kingbily wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:12 am
Getting Gigabit Networking on a Raspberry Pi 2, 3 and B+ tl;dr You can get Gigabit networking working on any current Raspberry Pi (A+, B+, Pi 2 model B, Pi 3 model B), and you can increase the throughput to at least 300+ Mbps (up from the standard 100 Mbps connection via built-in Ethernet).
that's not GbE... And to work reliable, flow-control on the other side is needed.. If you want the 300Mb just buy the 3b+ it's overall the better bet than 'upgrade' a old one with a GbE adapter...
MuntyScruntfundle wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:01 pm
The Tinker drawbacks however are pretty considerable. The Raspian OS is well developed, constantly updated and improved, the support is good and the forums are second to none. None of these can be claimed for the Tinker, support is patchy and you're reliant on a branch of Debian that doesn't appear to be very well looked after.
I wouldn't agree on this one.. The tinker crew maintains it own forum (iirc started as a community founded forum now officially maintained by ASUS but not sure).. There are other debian/ubuntu flavored distros which support the tinker as well. Most of the issues people have with SBCs are more or less generic debian/ubuntu issues.. You could ask in the RPi forum and quite often the solution would also work for the tinker or any other arm SBC except a few hardware hacks (e.g. camera, hw accelerated de-/en-coding, gpio related stuff). So support isn't an issue for the tinker. Kernel support neither (for multimedia you're stick to RKs 4.4, for everything else mainline support is decent - mine started as a small git server with 4.15 now at 5.0-rc2, sticking to development branches of my distro cause I now how to fix a broken kernel/DT on the conservative side it would be a 4.19... ). The only drawback the tinker has are the same as the Pi (except GbE :lol: ) powered through a microUSB (and RK3288 is even more powerhungry and USB2 is shared on all 4 ports, don't know if they partly fixed it for the S model but the SoC isn't capable of more than 3, one otg two master and unlikely that they fixed it).. And the small heatsink provided to the TB is just a joke - thermal throttling happens to early cause the A17 32 bit cores tend to get hot under load..
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:49 am
By the time Pi4 is out aarch64 on Pi3B+ will be solid and very mainstream.
Unless RPF adds very weird stuff to the Pi4 it should just run a (or many) 64bit OS's from day one.
on the assumption that a Pi4 will still use VC4 otherwise.. go back to field 1... :lol: and if they do so, most of the limitations of the VC4 are still here (e.g. ram limitation, single USB2).. But that's all speculative... and jamesh doesn't like speculations about a PiX :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:49 am
Everything will be better and faster?
Likely not.. a 64bit OS tends to be memory hungry (compared to 32bit) and the RPi is on the low-end towards memory anyway.. One of those 64bit users here ever compared Raspian with a 64 bit OS in terms of performance?

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:07 pm

chwe wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:33 pm
on the assumption that a Pi4 will still use VC4 otherwise.. go back to field 1... :lol: and if they do so, most of the limitations of the VC4 are still here (e.g. ram limitation, single USB2).. But that's all speculative... and jamesh doesn't like speculations about a PiX :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I think the use of the VC4 as we know and love it is unlikely. Since it is openly acknowledged that the Pi4 *won't* be a 40nm part, and doing a die shrink to the VC4 would be prohibitively expensive, the next SoC is far more likely to use the follow on to the VC4 that Broadcom is already putting in other--28nm--chips.

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rpdom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:39 pm

chwe wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:33 pm
kingbily wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:12 am
Getting Gigabit Networking on a Raspberry Pi 2, 3 and B+ tl;dr You can get Gigabit networking working on any current Raspberry Pi (A+, B+, Pi 2 model B, Pi 3 model B), and you can increase the throughput to at least 300+ Mbps (up from the standard 100 Mbps connection via built-in Ethernet).
that's not GbE...
Why not? It connects at 1000mb/S. GbE doesn't define the actual throughput. It defines the connection speed. It's like those DM9601 USB ethernet adaptors that have 100mb/S ethernet chips on an 11 mb/S USB 1.1 connection.

jamesh
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:47 pm

rpdom wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:39 pm
chwe wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:33 pm
kingbily wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:12 am
Getting Gigabit Networking on a Raspberry Pi 2, 3 and B+ tl;dr You can get Gigabit networking working on any current Raspberry Pi (A+, B+, Pi 2 model B, Pi 3 model B), and you can increase the throughput to at least 300+ Mbps (up from the standard 100 Mbps connection via built-in Ethernet).
that's not GbE...
Why not? It connects at 1000mb/S. GbE doesn't define the actual throughput. It defines the connection speed. It's like those DM9601 USB ethernet adaptors that have 100mb/S ethernet chips on an 11 mb/S USB 1.1 connection.
This. The electrical characteristics are GigE. The fact that thoughput cannot reach that (and cannot on some other SBC's either) doesn't mean its not GigE.

Flow control over ethernet, which has been around for many years, well before GigE, was designed for exactly this circumstance, where devices could not accept data as fast as the sender could send it.
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chwe
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:59 pm

rpdom wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:39 pm
chwe wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:33 pm
kingbily wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:12 am
Getting Gigabit Networking on a Raspberry Pi 2, 3 and B+ tl;dr You can get Gigabit networking working on any current Raspberry Pi (A+, B+, Pi 2 model B, Pi 3 model B), and you can increase the throughput to at least 300+ Mbps (up from the standard 100 Mbps connection via built-in Ethernet).
that's not GbE...
Why not? It connects at 1000mb/S. GbE doesn't define the actual throughput. It defines the connection speed. It's like those DM9601 USB ethernet adaptors that have 100mb/S ethernet chips on an 11 mb/S USB 1.1 connection.
If you have a full HD display but 2/3 of it is always black, do you call it fullHD? Just ask for a friend..
Yes, it is faster than fast Ethernet on previous RPis but far away from real GbE..

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rpdom
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Re: Next raspberry ethernet?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:20 pm

chwe wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:59 pm
If you have a full HD display but 2/3 of it is always black, do you call it fullHD? Just ask for a friend..
Yes. If it is a true HD display. It may be that the device driving it isn't capable of full HD, but that is not the point. (I'll skip the overscan issue here because that isn't "2/3 of it").
Yes, it is faster than fast Ethernet on previous RPis but far away from real GbE..
The data is sent down the cable at 1000mb/S. No matter how you word it that is a fact.

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