code_exec
Posts: 273
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:07 pm

I'm building a Debian XFCE image at the moment. Hopefully, it will be released tomorrow.
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop images for the Raspberry Pi 3.

https://github.com/CodeExecution/Ubuntu-ARM64-RPi

jdonald
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:36 pm

Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:29 am

ejolson wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:00 am
The Pi 3B+ running in 32-bit compatibility mode completes the computation in 15.43 seconds. Based on rescaling the clock speeds of a different ARM-based single-board computer, it was estimated that the Pi 3B+ running in 64-bit mode should complete this same computation in only 7.49 seconds. If true, that would be a two-fold increase in speed for a particular application just by switching operating systems.

It would be nice if someone who is running a 64-bit operating system on real 3B+ hardware could confirm that this estimate is correct.
On code_exec's Debian image with a 3B+ I'm consistently getting 33 seconds for 32-bit and 17 seconds for 64-bit, so it's very close to a 2x speedup but the absolute runtimes are not matching others' results. I'll follow up on the other thread.

It also turns out I was unfortunately mistaken on Docker 32-bit. With packages named both docker and docker-ce, I did not realize I had docker-ce:arm64 installed at the time. Testing again, I'm unable to run any aarch64 Docker images on docker-ce:armhf.
code_exec wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:07 pm
I'm building a Debian XFCE image at the moment. Hopefully, it will be released tomorrow.
One issue I encountered with the MATE 64-bit image is that whenever I run sudo it says:

Code: Select all

sudo: unable to resolve host debian-mate-rpi3
To fix this I had to edit /etc/hosts.

ejolson
Posts: 3724
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:25 am

jdonald wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:29 am
ejolson wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:00 am
The Pi 3B+ running in 32-bit compatibility mode completes the computation in 15.43 seconds. Based on rescaling the clock speeds of a different ARM-based single-board computer, it was estimated that the Pi 3B+ running in 64-bit mode should complete this same computation in only 7.49 seconds. If true, that would be a two-fold increase in speed for a particular application just by switching operating systems.

It would be nice if someone who is running a 64-bit operating system on real 3B+ hardware could confirm that this estimate is correct.
On code_exec's Debian image with a 3B+ I'm consistently getting 33 seconds for 32-bit and 17 seconds for 64-bit, so it's very close to a 2x speedup but the absolute runtimes are not matching others' results. I'll follow up on the other thread.
Thanks for testing. I wonder whether the difference is software or hardware. Are you certain you have adequate power supply so that the CPU is not throttling due to low voltage? For the C computer did you use -O3 and any of the -march and -mtune optimisation settings?

Even though everything is slower than expected, it is interesting to see 64-bit code running twice as fast as the 32-bit code.

n67
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:23 pm

Heater wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:47 pm
yvette,
...we really need the 64 bit version.
I'm curious.

Could you say exactly what it is you are wanting to do with a Pi that absolutely requires a 64 bit OS?

If you really need a 64 bit OS on the Pi then there are many to choose from as suggested here already.
What's funny about this thread is that almost all of the responses fall into one of these two categories:

1) You're stupid and go away. The flippant stuff about "If you happen to have 20 million dollars in your pocket..." and so on.

2) Yes, there are 64 bit OSes out there for you to download and run. They're not mainstream (i.e., they're not Raspbian), but they do exist and they do work.

The problem is that, unless you read carefully (and English is your first language), it is hard for the casual reader to tell them apart. I get the impression that yvette hasn't really taken in the existence of the type 2 responses, because they are lost in the sea of type 1 responses.
"L'enfer, c'est les autres"

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Heater
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:11 pm

n67,

Is there a particular reason you quoted my post in your comments about how terrible you perceive lots of the replies here to be? Is there something wrong with it?

It was a genuine question born out of my curiosity. I did not expand on the other 64 bit OS available as that had been done here already.
The problem is that, unless you read carefully (and English is your first language), it is hard for the casual reader to tell them apart. I get the impression that yvette hasn't really taken in the existence of the type 2 responses, because they are lost in the sea of type 1 responses.
Yes, life is hard in the net.
No, I recall there were many helpful suggestions for alternative 64 bit OS before me.

yvette has not bothered to return an answer the question or comment so, meh.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

n67
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:56 pm

Is there a particular reason you quoted my post in your comments about how terrible you perceive lots of the replies here to be? Is there something wrong with it?
Yes there was, in that what I wrote kinda flows from (continues on with) what you wrote.

Nothing antagonistic intended.

FWIW, I do wish there were a lot less "Oh, that's a stupid idea. It'll never happen. It's off-topic" type responses to these sorts of threads.

Also, I maybe shouldn't have mentioned "yvette" by name, since s/he was not the OP. I did not in any way mean to single them out.
"L'enfer, c'est les autres"

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Epmu Sn!

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ejolson
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:47 pm

n67 wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:56 pm
I do wish there were a lot less "Oh, that's a stupid idea. It'll never happen. It's off-topic" type responses to these sorts of threads.
At the risk of going off topic, the question why do you need a 64-bit operating system, is also a bit confrontational. There are almost no Raspberry Pi computers that fulfill any basic need including food, shelter, water and sleep, though the name makes them sound edible.

In the race to the bottom, the industrialised first-world nation with the least educated most computer illiterate workforce is likely to win.

While it has been observed that more computer literacy was taught at schools which did not have the financial resources to replace aging 8 and 16-bit machines running BASIC with office computers running Windows, it should also be noted that the parents of students who attended such schools instinctively viewed STEM subjects as a possible route out of poverty and the students themselves considered those old computers to be modern inventions of the developed world worth mastering. In spite of well intentioned entitlement programs which provide post-secondary opportunities to study fashion design and interior decorating, careers where ability is more important than family connections have proven more effective in lifting people out of poverty. You can't fake being able to write good code. Therefore, obtaining a good programming job depends less on how influential or underprivileged was a person's family background.

Unfortunately, it may not be possible to reverse the race to the bottom by copying the technology used in poorer countries racing to the top. Instead of reproducing the 8 and 16-bit computers, one needs to reproduce the motivation of the students and the approval of the parents. An old computer running BASIC looks new and interesting compared to a bullock cart, but what kind of computer looks similarly interesting compared to a mobile phone and a play station?

The success of Raspberry Pi is not only because of its price, but also because at that price it provides something new, useful, interesting and whatever. Back on topic, much of what makes the Pi successful, in my opinion, is the actual computing power under the hood--it is a real quad-core 32-bit programmable computer with hardware-accelerated 3D graphics and GPIO for real-world interfacing and physical computing. Moving to 64-bit may soon be necessary simply to maintain the sense of awe that makes the Pi attractive in both educational and hobbyist markets. The factor-of-two performance increase for my program that computes million-digit Fibonacci numbers is also nice.

Heater
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:16 pm

ejolson,

Wow, what was all that about?

I do agree with one point. At least one person here has said the Pi "needs" a 64 bit OS without actually expressing what the need is. Then not replying when asked. Can't be much of a need then, now can it?

I don't care much. Generally the Pi performs orders of magnitude better than is needed to do anything I want to do with it.

I only feel sad about all those transistors going to waste as we ignore them with our 32 bit operating systems. Transistors want to feel needed too you know :)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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DavidS
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:35 pm

ejolson wrote: The success of Raspberry Pi is not only because of its price, but also because at that price it provides something new, useful, interesting and whatever. Back on topic, much of what makes the Pi successful, in my opinion, is the actual computing power under the hood--it is a real quad-core 32-bit programmable computer with hardware-accelerated 3D graphics and GPIO for real-world interfacing and physical computing. Moving to 64-bit may soon be necessary simply to maintain the sense of awe that makes the Pi attractive in both educational and hobbyist markets. The factor-of-two performance increase for my program that computes million-digit Fibonacci numbers is also nice.
That increase combined with the loss of performance for much real world stuff when you go 64-bit :) .

There just is not enough that gets a boost in performance to justify the losses in going 64-bit yet. And for me 256 Terabytes of CPU addressed RAM is not likely to be seen for a long time to come, which is the limit for the 32-bit ARM (thanks to a well thought out MMU by ARM).

That said I am still barely touching the GPU with my coding, that is a big one to play with, with a lot of potential for many applications (not just graphics).
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

jdonald
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:50 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:25 am
Are you certain you have adequate power supply so that the CPU is not throttling due to low voltage?
This was the real problem, thanks. I've updated the "Why Avoid BASIC on RPi?" thread with my findings which I think you'll like.
n67 wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:23 pm
2) Yes, there are 64 bit OSes out there for you to download and run. They're not mainstream (i.e., they're not Raspbian), but they do exist and they do work.
Perhaps a nuanced part that gets lost even within (2) is that this thread has also been discussing ways to run 64-bit code on or alongside Raspbian. These methods include kvm, chroot (thanks sakaki), multiarch, and Docker. Even with multiple distros, there's value in making systems that are familiar and close to mainstream.

mfa298
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:04 am

Heater wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:16 pm
I only feel sad about all those transistors going to waste as we ignore them with our 32 bit operating systems. Transistors want to feel needed too you know :)
"...and then of course I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left hand side..."

Those transistors (and diodes) need to feel loved.

ejolson
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:10 am

Heater wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:16 pm
ejolson,

Wow, what was all that about?

I do agree with one point. At least one person here has said the Pi "needs" a 64 bit OS without actually expressing what the need is. Then not replying when asked. Can't be much of a need then, now can it?
Thinking about needs and doing the least to satisfy them is part of the race to the bottom. Going beyond needs to achieve dreams is a race to the top. To satisfy needs you are better off buying a raspberry pie rather than a computer. However, this is a thread about the dream of 35 dollar and 64-bit computing. And like you said, transistors have feelings too.
Last edited by ejolson on Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:49 am

At the risk of going off topic, the question why do you need a 64-bit operating system, is also a bit confrontational.
I suppose for some it is like having one of those V8 engine cars that only use 4 cylinders when commuting.
Some rev heads like to open them up to see how fast they will go.
Then it becomes a "need" to know how fast it goes or how it works.

Yep, think about those poor top 32 bits of 64bit registers that do nothing, just sitting there doing nothing productive.

Desktop PC's, most Smartphones are 64bit anyway, that is the way the World is going, deniers are Flat Earthers?
Sorry guys but 32bits is so last Century.
64 is the new 32 and 32 is the new 8 and 8 bitters are history and should be in museums or retired.
Bring on VLIW 126/256 bits :D

But the SDRAM is only 32bit wide so 64bit instructions take two reads of SDRAM.....
64Bit OS's make sense if the RPF want to teach 64bit coding.
This question keeps popping up, just use whatever OS you want.
RPF use 32bit Raspbian for their "Mission", that does not mean everyone has to use it too.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

W. H. Heydt
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:54 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:49 am
64Bit OS's make sense if the RPF want to teach 64bit coding.
And just what is the difference between 32-bit coding and 64-bit coding in the main launguages--Scratch and Python--specifically pushed for Pis?

I've said before, and I'll repeat it...Eventually Raspbian will almost certainly go 64-bit, but that time is not now for a variety of reasons. To that I can add: One of the reasons preventing a general move to 64-bit has now been resolved by the release of the Pi3A+. That provides an A-series platform that can handle a 64-bit system. So as old boards get retired, or just stop being updated, 64-bit becomes more and more feasible. There is still the problem (when it comes to only officially supporting one image at a time) that there is no 64-bit capable Pi0/Pi0W anywhere in sight.

Edit to add... If the RPF switched to a 64-bit Raspbian tomorrow, and I wanted to be able to keep operating Pis up to date on a current image, I would have to replace at least 11 Pi2Bv1.1 boards. So that would be a *personal* out of pocket expense of about $400. On my budget (I'm retired) that would constitute a Major Expense and one that would have to be spread out and/or planned for. It would also impact getting other bits of Pis and add-ons. While that isn't (and shouldn't be) a consideration by the RPF/RPT, multiplying my situation with--probably--quite a few others, might give them pause to making such a transition in the short term. In the long term, I will probably be replacing at least half of those Pi2Bv1.1 boards with Pi2Bv1.2 over the next year or two...

ejolson
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:11 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:54 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:49 am
64Bit OS's make sense if the RPF want to teach 64bit coding.
And just what is the difference between 32-bit coding and 64-bit coding in the main launguages--Scratch and Python--specifically pushed for Pis?
Scratch 2 runs in the browser using Flash and
Scratch 3.0 is written in HTML5, which is a general term for the latest HTML, CSS, and Javascript web-based markup and programming languages. Scratch 3.0 will primarily use the WebGL, Web Workers, and Web Audio Javascript libraries.
as stated here.

The Firefox browser [edit] still supports 32-bit but the version in Raspbian is quite old. Other mainstream browsers are developed with 64-bit as the primary platform. After some time, only the original Scratch 1 written in Squeak Smalltalk will be available on 32-bit platforms while 64-bit will be required to run the browser technology necessary for currently developed versions. Therefore, the difference between programming Scratch on 32-bit versus 64-bit will be the same as the difference between Scratch 1 and Scratch 3.

In my opinion, Scratch is a bit of a dead end, anyway, when it comes to teaching how to read and write computer programs: No writing is involved when creating the program because it's all done with the mouse and no reading is possible afterwards because it is not possible to print the program out.

Current versions of Python seem likely to be available for much longer on 32-bit platforms. If development switches to just-in-time compiled 64-bit only, then maybe the P in Pi could stand for Pascal instead.
Last edited by ejolson on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:22 am, edited 6 times in total.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:27 am

ejolson wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:11 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:54 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:49 am
64Bit OS's make sense if the RPF want to teach 64bit coding.
And just what is the difference between 32-bit coding and 64-bit coding in the main launguages--Scratch and Python--specifically pushed for Pis?
Scratch 2 runs in the browser using Flash and
Scratch 3.0 is written in HTML5, which is a general term for the latest HTML, CSS, and Javascript web-based markup and programming languages. Scratch 3.0 will primarily use the WebGL, Web Workers, and Web Audio Javascript libraries.
as stated here.

The Firefox browser is already 64-bit only while other mainstream browsers are developed with 64-bit as the primary platform. After some time, only the original Scratch 1 written in Squeak Smalltalk will be available on 32-bit platforms while 64-bit will be required to run the browser technology necessary for currently developed versions. Therefore, the difference between programming Scratch on 32-bit versus 64-bit will be the same as the difference between Scratch 1 and Scratch 3.

Firefox is both x86-32 & x86-64, see:

https://www.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/all/

That's version 63.0.3

Firefox-ESR is likewise..........


Whilst Debian list firefox-esr 60.3.0 for both ARMHF & ARM64

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/firefox-esr

..and Chromium Browser likewise:

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/chromium



Regards Scratch3 there is no mention of machine architecture just "modern" versions of web browsers being supported:

https://scratch.mit.edu/3faq#Compatibility



Have I missed something here ????
Retired disgracefully.....

n67
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:36 am

The Firefox browser is already 64-bit only while other mainstream browsers are developed with 64-bit as the primary platform. After some time, only the original Scratch 1 written in Squeak Smalltalk will be available on 32-bit platforms while 64-bit will be required to run the browser technology necessary for currently developed versions. Therefore, the difference between programming Scratch on 32-bit versus 64-bit will be the same as the difference between Scratch 1 and Scratch 3.
That's what it really always boils down to. The world is "moving on" and people feel like they will be left behind if they don't move with it. At some point, you will not be able to hold your head up high at your cocktail parties if you are still running any piece of 32 bit software.

It is a valid feeling, but it is often more of a psychological/marketing sort of thing than an actual technical thing.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:40 am

As EU stated the RPi 3A+ is the final chapter , I would be very surprised if an ARM64 Raspbian would be supported.

I do believe we will have to wait for RPi 4 for the transition....

Just my opinion..........
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jdonald
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:42 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:54 am
There is still the problem (when it comes to only officially supporting one image at a time) that there is no 64-bit capable Pi0/Pi0W anywhere in sight.
...
If the RPF switched to a 64-bit Raspbian tomorrow, and I wanted to be able to keep operating Pis up to date on a current image, I would have to replace at least 11 Pi2Bv1.1 boards.
Single-image may not be a dealbreaker per se. The bootloader already has code such that if it's on a Pi 2 it will ignore kernel8.img and go straight to booting kernel7.img. If the foundation's policy were single-kernel it would be another story, but that's already not the case as we have both kernel7.img and kernel.img.

Now there are challenges supporting an additional kernel. Obviously there's more to maintain and test across all drivers. I find this similar to the situation with the open-source VC4 driver vs the legacy brcm one. The new driver seems to be what the foundation has chosen yet still plenty of legacy software like Kodi or Retropie requires the old one. We accept this complication, give users the freedom to choose via raspi-config, and move forward, but it isn't the same as having to support two separate distros.

ejolson
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:49 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:27 am
Have I missed something here ????
It seems you are right and 32-bit builds of recent versions of Firefox are still available, even with the most recent quantum rendering engine. For some reason I was under the impression that the newest versions of Firefox didn't run on Raspbian, but I may have misunderstood.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:57 am

ejolson wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:49 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:27 am
Have I missed something here ????
It seems you are right and 32-bit builds of recent versions of Firefox are still available, even with the most recent quantum rendering engine. For some reason I was under the impression that the newest versions didn't run on Raspbian, but I may have misunderstood.

At this point in time only Google Chrome Browser has ditched x86-32 Linux support:

https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/95346

Whilst only offer ARMHF & ARM64 versions for Android Linux OS version 4.1 onwards.......


Firefox-ESR still AFAIAA not been updated to the 60 engine in Raspbian Stretch, it is still on the older 52 engine.....

release-overview-high-res.d3c9788f2dd1.png
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ejolson
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:17 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:57 am
Firefox-ESR still AFAIAA not been updated to the 60 engine in Raspbian Stretch, it is still on the older 52 engine.....
Thanks, I've updated my earlier post to indicate Firefox is still supported on 32-bit systems but the version in Raspbian is old.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:26 am

ejolson wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:17 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:57 am
Firefox-ESR still AFAIAA not been updated to the 60 engine in Raspbian Stretch, it is still on the older 52 engine.....
Thanks, I've updated my earlier post to indicate Firefox is still supported on 32-bit system but the version in Raspbian is old.

Though firefox-esr browser is not needed as Raspbian Stretch ARMHF has chromium-browser which Scratch3 is compatible with......

So what else in the next few years will make ARM32 Raspbian Stretch not usable ????

The RPF already offer OS support longer for the RPi SBC's than Apple & Google devices enjoy......
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jdonald
Posts: 417
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:30 am

ejolson I think you were right the first time. Firefox armhf is not supported on Stretch and has been broken since 55 or earlier. Here's the ticket where they say it's a tier-3 platform and might fix it someday. I just installed firefox-esr (60.3) on Debian and got the usual startup crash.

Earlier this year, it was a miracle when firefox started working again on 18.04 Bionic armhf, and I imagine it's still running on 18.10 Cosmic. When it comes to Debian, I haven't seen any support outside of arm64.

WebGL support in chromium-browser for Raspbian is subpar compared to firefox:arm64. I cannot run any Unity Web Player apps on Chromium for Pi. I'm guessing that Chromium support for WebGL is generally good across most OSs but Google also felt armhf Linux was third-tier so they could take shortcuts. Being a resource-constrained system Scratch 3 for Pi should not have to settle for only one lousy choice.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: 64-bit operating system

Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:45 am

jdonald wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:30 am
ejolson I think you were right the first time. Firefox armhf is not supported on Stretch and has been broken since 55 or earlier. Here's the ticket where they say it's a tier-3 platform and might fix it someday. I just installed firefox-esr (60.3) on Debian and got the usual startup crash.

Earlier this year, it was a miracle when firefox started working again on 18.04 Bionic armhf, and I imagine it's still running on 18.10 Cosmic. When it comes to Debian, I haven't seen any support outside of arm64.

WebGL support in chromium-browser for Raspbian is subpar compared to firefox:arm64. I cannot run any Unity Web Player apps on Chromium for Pi. I'm guessing that Chromium support for WebGL is generally good across most OSs but Google also felt armhf Linux was third-tier so they could take shortcuts. Being a resource-constrained system Scratch 3 for Pi should not have to settle for only one lousy choice.

Unity Web Player for Browser based Games.

Yes but does Raspbian Stretch ARM32 fit the goals of Education and Learning which the Raspberry Pi Foundation's Charitable Aims must adhere to ???

We can all wish, but wishing and reality are unfortunately in life differing outcomes !!!
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