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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:59 pm

You're all wrong, x64 means the current crop of 64 core processors.

jahboater
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:00 pm

x64 has been a common contraction of x86_64 for years, it is just easier to type
A64 is ARM's name for the aarch64 instruction set.
A32 and T32 are the correct names for the instruction sets used in the aarch32 mode
T32 is thumb2
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:59 pm
You're all wrong, x64 means the current crop of 64 core processors.
:)

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DavidS
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:15 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:59 pm
You're all wrong, x64 means the current crop of 64 core processors.
LOL

I do know of what you speak, though that is not in common use.
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Heater
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:39 pm

DavidS,
And the copy of the Intel manuals I have call the intel implementation of AMD64 (licensed from AMD) IA64,
Let's not get confused here.

What Intel called "IA-64" in the manuals was their Itanium architecture. A totally different thing.

For example: http://refspecs.linux-foundation.org/IA ... n-vol1.pdf

I very much doubt that you have an Intel manual that refers to what we know as 64 bit x86 as "IA64". Do post a link if you have such a thing.

What Intel actually calls it is "Intel® 64 architecture". For example: https://software.intel.com/en-us/downlo ... chitecture

Which is kind of disgusting give that it was AMD that created the specification.

And yes, AMD produced them first. Because Intel had no idea to do such a thing. They were busy betting on Itanium at the time.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:29 pm

Whatever !

Personally find the following is generally understood:

x86-32
x86-64

ARM32
ARM64

"to each his own"
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DavidS
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:30 am

Heater wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:39 pm
DavidS,
And the copy of the Intel manuals I have call the intel implementation of AMD64 (licensed from AMD) IA64,
Let's not get confused here.

What Intel called "IA-64" in the manuals was their Itanium architecture. A totally different thing.

For example: http://refspecs.linux-foundation.org/IA ... n-vol1.pdf

I very much doubt that you have an Intel manual that refers to what we know as 64 bit x86 as "IA64". Do post a link if you have such a thing.

What Intel actually calls it is "Intel® 64 architecture". For example: https://software.intel.com/en-us/downlo ... chitecture

Which is kind of disgusting give that it was AMD that created the specification.

And yes, AMD produced them first. Because Intel had no idea to do such a thing. They were busy betting on Itanium at the time.
No it is what intel called IA64 not IA-64, difference. And they also call them Intel 64 Archetecture, in the same manuals. I admit that my manuals are a bit dated, though does not change the fact.

In fact I remember when we used to make the distinction rather loudly between IA-64 which was out of reach and IA64 which we could reach. I am looking at the op code tables for IA64 as I type this, which are largely the IA32 opcodes (not IA-32, another lost Intel ISA from the 1980's), with REX extensions, and it says in huge print at the top of the tables IA64 and IA32.

I still call them AMD64 as everyone already knows, so this is more an intelectual exersize.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:32 am

Heater wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:39 pm
DavidS,
And the copy of the Intel manuals I have call the intel implementation of AMD64 (licensed from AMD) IA64,
Let's not get confused here.

What Intel called "IA-64" in the manuals was their Itanium architecture. A totally different thing.

For example: http://refspecs.linux-foundation.org/IA ... n-vol1.pdf

I very much doubt that you have an Intel manual that refers to what we know as 64 bit x86 as "IA64". Do post a link if you have such a thing.

What Intel actually calls it is "Intel® 64 architecture". For example: https://software.intel.com/en-us/downlo ... chitecture

Which is kind of disgusting give that it was AMD that created the specification.

And yes, AMD produced them first. Because Intel had no idea to do such a thing. They were busy betting on Itanium at the time.
How do I post a link to a physical book sitting on my desk?
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:32 am

Forum double posted on me.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:02 am

DavidS wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:32 am
How do I post a link to a physical book sitting on my desk?
Look for the isbn number and post that.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:39 am

DavidS,

I admire your dogged persistence to be wrong :)

Dr. Allan Knies, of the Intel IA64 Processor Division, would like to disagree with you.
As would Dr. Wei Li, of Intel's Microcomputer Software Labs and Dr. Jesse Fang, of Intels Microprocessor Research Labs
https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/0405/ ... 4-tut1.pdf

"IA64" is the Itanium. The 64 bit extension of x86 is known by Intel as "Intel(R) 64"

As shown in a ton of other documentation around the net. From Intel an elsewhere:

https://wccftech.com/intel-itanium-kitt ... sors-32nm/
https://superuser.com/questions/276994/ ... 64-and-x64
https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums ... pic/499210


If you have an Intel publication that says otherwise I'm sure you can get google to find it on the net and post a link.

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:36 am

DavidS wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:32 am
How do I post a link to a physical book sitting on my desk?
use a device powered by a tiny imp who sits inside and paints pictures of whatever it sees, on demand

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:38 am

fanoush wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:36 am
DavidS wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:32 am
How do I post a link to a physical book sitting on my desk?
use a device powered by a tiny imp who sits inside and paints pictures of whatever it sees, on demand
:lol:
https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Iconograph I assume ?
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:37 am

PeterO wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:38 am
:lol:
https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Iconograph I assume ?
PeterO
Indeed. One can also transmit iconographs thousands of miles through the Clacks semaphore system. So imagine a book with something others would not believe. You could use this and send it across whole disc so they could see themselves. Magic.

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:26 pm

The Pi 3 does not have a x64 processor. x64 is 64-bit x86. The Pi 3 has a 64-bit ARM processor (ARM64) and can run 64-bit ARM OSes but not 64-bit x86 ones.

A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.

https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/ ... -8300.html

An ARM SBC is capable of a lot of tasks you can do on a x64 PC.
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop images for the Raspberry Pi 3.

https://github.com/CodeExecution/Ubuntu-ARM64-RPi

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:43 pm

code_exec wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:26 pm
x64 is 64-bit x86.
Havn't you been paying attention ? :D "x86-64" is a 64 bit x86 as shown here ....

Code: Select all

petero@EliteDesk1:~$ uname -a
Linux EliteDesk1 4.15.0-39-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Tue Oct 23 15:48:01 UTC 2018 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
petero@EliteDesk1:~$

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm

A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.
Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:27 pm

n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm
A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.
Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
Even by using EOL x86-64 CPUs, you still aren't going to approach the cost of an obsolete ARM design. For one thing, Intel maintains about a 60% profit margin on processor chips. For another, those EOL CPUs don't include any sort of graphics processor, so now you've got *two* relatively large, expensive packages to get onto the board (and that's before looking at RAM). Plus you'll need a chip set to control all the traffic between various system parts--CPU, GPU, RAM, I/O ports--so there goes more cost and more board space.

Intel has *tried* to get into the phone and tablet space (which ARM dominates) and has failed miserably. They can't get the size, power requirements, and cost down far enough. Why that matters when it comes to the Pi is that the Pi SoCs are, basically, "old and slow" cell phone style devices. Think about it for a minute. For a Pi0, even with the one per customer limit, to sell for $5, the SoC and RAM have to *each* sell at wholesale for less than $1 each. Where are you going to find an Intel or AMD CPU (let alone a whole SoC) for that sort of price? Or even within an order of magnitude of it...

A quick check on Newegg shows the cheapest i3 CPU they list is a *refurbished* one that sell for $20. You're not going to be able to get 5 million of those per year. You're also not going to be able to make a board that has one on it that sells for $35.

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:39 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:27 pm
n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm
A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.
Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
Even by using EOL x86-64 CPUs, you still aren't going to approach the cost of an obsolete ARM design. For one thing, Intel maintains about a 60% profit margin on processor chips. For another, those EOL CPUs don't include any sort of graphics processor, so now you've got *two* relatively large, expensive packages to get onto the board (and that's before looking at RAM). Plus you'll need a chip set to control all the traffic between various system parts--CPU, GPU, RAM, I/O ports--so there goes more cost and more board space.

Intel has *tried* to get into the phone and tablet space (which ARM dominates) and has failed miserably. They can't get the size, power requirements, and cost down far enough.
Fairly sure Intel didn't fail...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Atom

Also, as to size, my laptop is made from an SBC the same size as a Pi. While it did cost me 5 times the price, it also came with everything needed. Screen, case, power supply, batteries, keyboard, 4GB RAM, 32GB eMMC, software licenses, etc.

Not saying RPi foundation should do it, just that, theoretically, they could do it.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:39 pm
Fairly sure Intel didn't fail...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Atom

Also, as to size, my laptop is made from an SBC the same size as a Pi. While it did cost me 5 times the price, it also came with everything needed. Screen, case, power supply, batteries, keyboard, 4GB RAM, 32GB eMMC, software licenses, etc.

Not saying RPi foundation should do it, just that, theoretically, they could do it.
How many cell phones do you know of that are powered by the Intel Atom?

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:27 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 am
Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:39 pm
Fairly sure Intel didn't fail...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Atom

Also, as to size, my laptop is made from an SBC the same size as a Pi. While it did cost me 5 times the price, it also came with everything needed. Screen, case, power supply, batteries, keyboard, 4GB RAM, 32GB eMMC, software licenses, etc.

Not saying RPi foundation should do it, just that, theoretically, they could do it.
How many cell phones do you know of that are powered by the Intel Atom?

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3063508 ... chips.html
Retired disgracefully.....

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:32 am

Looks to me like they're still selling them and similar chips
https://au.mouser.com/Mobile/Intel/Semi ... ?P=1yy6lwv
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:35 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:27 pm
n67 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm
A x64 Pi would bump up the price a lot. And by a lot, I mean by over £100. An Intel Core i3 8th Generation can be purchased from £139.99.
Keep in mind that a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi wouldn't have to run - and, in fact, would not run - any sort of "state of the art", latest-and-greatest, x86 processor. Nor would it have to run the latest-and-greatest (Yech!) MS operating system. Remember that the Pi phenomenon started with a GPU/CPU combination that was pretty much EOL at the start. I'd imagine something similar could have been done (and theoretically, still could, although it is unlikely) to build a (hypothetical) x86 based Pi.
Even by using EOL x86-64 CPUs, you still aren't going to approach the cost of an obsolete ARM design. For one thing, Intel maintains about a 60% profit margin on processor chips. For another, those EOL CPUs don't include any sort of graphics processor, so now you've got *two* relatively large, expensive packages to get onto the board (and that's before looking at RAM). Plus you'll need a chip set to control all the traffic between various system parts--CPU, GPU, RAM, I/O ports--so there goes more cost and more board space.

Intel has *tried* to get into the phone and tablet space (which ARM dominates) and has failed miserably. They can't get the size, power requirements, and cost down far enough. Why that matters when it comes to the Pi is that the Pi SoCs are, basically, "old and slow" cell phone style devices. Think about it for a minute. For a Pi0, even with the one per customer limit, to sell for $5, the SoC and RAM have to *each* sell at wholesale for less than $1 each. Where are you going to find an Intel or AMD CPU (let alone a whole SoC) for that sort of price? Or even within an order of magnitude of it...

A quick check on Newegg shows the cheapest i3 CPU they list is a *refurbished* one that sell for $20. You're not going to be able to get 5 million of those per year. You're also not going to be able to make a board that has one on it that sells for $35.
My Atom chip in this tablet has GPU in the processor, even has HDMI out https://ark.intel.com/products/80274/In ... -1-83-GHz- which is pretty much EoL being almost 5 years old, it's a shame the tablet isn't opened up and ubuntu or similar running on it.
and a C3360 was launch earlier this year.
both, of course, cost more or about the same as a Pi 3A+, not much room for anything else.

Both st
Anyway, there is not just Intel in the x86-64 market. One of the other ones does a nice job in the console market ;-)

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:36 am

Intel do have some mobile chips, but very few people use them. ARm dominates the mobile space. And seems likely to continue to do so.

We, the RPF(T), have no plans whatsoever to use x86 chips in the Raspberry Pi, and those plans go at least 4 years out from now (to Pi5)

No-one else makes a SBC with a x86 chip at the prices of the Pi AFAIK. The reasons are outlined in posts above.

How much is a Windows licence nowadays, and how much RAM does it need? Windows would be the ONLY reason why you might want x86, and the costs of making that work would be very high indeed in RAM and licences.

It really is a no brainer to keep off x86.
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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:11 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 am
I cannot see us ever going x86.
Happy to hear this.

Also we're happy about how smooth Linux runs on an ARM platform like the Pi.

The Pi's unique ARM based hardware combined with the fine Linux makes this little device so valuable.

And Davids, we used the good old Acorn Archimedes für many years, so we absolutely need an ARM based Pi in order to be able to insert a RISC OS SD card when we're in the mood, don't we? :-)

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Re: Raspberry pi 4 - x64 Processor ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:46 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:36 am

How much is a Windows license nowadays?
I have been looking at
https://www.quietpc.com
where you have options for the OS:
No pre-installed operating system: -
Windows 10 Home 64-bit: + £98.60
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit: + £134.16

You might also want to pay extra for all the anti-virus stuff, office products, visual studio etc.

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