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Re: Pi 3 A+ !!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:02 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:52 pm

The 3A+ will have a market - headless devices that need power but not memory (which is actually most applications, anyone who thinks they need 1GB of RAM probably needs to fix their code). No need to increase the price to $30 and have 1GB.
True, cost is indeed a valid reason to keep memory to a reasonable amount and true, the A+ is perfect for embedded designs. The old A+ does well there, the new A+ adds more CPU power and less memory means less power usage also.

If you need a Pi desktop, 1 GB and USB ports and LAN, get a B+ (and even that will not replace my I7 Intel notebook!).

And 1 GB RAM that is a lot! You can do marvels with much less if you leave out the enormous Linux kernel and the rest of the bloated software!

See https://ultibo.org/ for examples!
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm

So basically a RPi3B+ with just 512MB ram & one USB port - does it boot from USB as does the RPi3B+, & if so, will it boot via an unpowered USB hub with keyboard & mouse, from a pendrive?

(Thinking of maybe using it as a media centre type of system.)

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Re: Pi 3 A+ !!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:45 pm

hippy wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am
So 3A+ is about closing things out in style answering one of our most frequent customer requests
That will please W. H. Heydt who has long argued the case for having a 3A+.

I'm not sure though how these frequent requests make it through to Eben seeing how any discussion of desired product or features is quickly shut down on the forum with some members regularly being quick off the mark to tell us that such requests are "pi in the sky thinking" and making the case for new product is "just hot air and insulting to RPT/RPF".
Yes, it does please me. (One of the first e-mails I came to this morning was the Pi Hut making this announcement.)

As for discussions...the thread I started in Off Topic was never shut down, that I know of (I may go there and make an update that the launch has happened). But then, that thread was laying out reasons why Pi3A/Pi3A+ made sense and not asking for new *features* or proposing anything that the RPT wasn't already doing.

I think the statement from Dr. Upton pretty much closes off the idea of a Pi2B+, which is a bit of a pity, though I'll grant that the case for a "third generation" Pi2B is much weaker than for the Pi3A/Pi3A+.

And for the "64-bit OS at any cost" crowd, the Pi3A+ increases the feasibility of that. The Pi0 line becomes the only Pi series that doesn't have a 64-bit capable SoC. And, as oft stated, I can think of ways to get there technically...but not how to pay for it.

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:46 pm

k-pi wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm
So basically a RPi3B+ with just 512MB ram & one USB port - does it boot from USB as does the RPi3B+, & if so, will it boot via an unpowered USB hub with keyboard & mouse, from a pendrive?

(Thinking of maybe using it as a media centre type of system.)
Don't forget it has no ethernet.
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Re: Pi 3 A+ !!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:49 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:45 pm
hippy wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am
So 3A+ is about closing things out in style answering one of our most frequent customer requests
That will please W. H. Heydt who has long argued the case for having a 3A+.

I'm not sure though how these frequent requests make it through to Eben seeing how any discussion of desired product or features is quickly shut down on the forum with some members regularly being quick off the mark to tell us that such requests are "pi in the sky thinking" and making the case for new product is "just hot air and insulting to RPT/RPF".
Yes, it does please me. (One of the first e-mails I came to this morning was the Pi Hut making this announcement.)

As for discussions...the thread I started in Off Topic was never shut down, that I know of (I may go there and make an update that the launch has happened). But then, that thread was laying out reasons why Pi3A/Pi3A+ made sense and not asking for new *features* or proposing anything that the RPT wasn't already doing.

I think the statement from Dr. Upton pretty much closes off the idea of a Pi2B+, which is a bit of a pity, though I'll grant that the case for a "third generation" Pi2B is much weaker than for the Pi3A/Pi3A+.

And for the "64-bit OS at any cost" crowd, the Pi3A+ increases the feasibility of that. The Pi0 line becomes the only Pi series that doesn't have a 64-bit capable SoC. And, as oft stated, I can think of ways to get there technically...but not how to pay for it.
I cannot see there ever being a 2A+.

As for a 64bit OS, we have been discussing this recently. Eventually it will have to happen.
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Re: Pi 3 A+ !!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:50 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 am
We also have a roadmap for the next 5 years. Which could change, but not the Pi4, that's pretty much set in stone.
Heh. That last is the least surprising thing anyone could say.

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Re: Pi 3 A+ !!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:56 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:49 pm
I cannot see there ever being a 2A+.
I agree that that ship has sailed. The other board I have argued in favor of would be a Pi2B with the BCM2837B0 stepping. As I said, there is a case for one, but it's a weak case. It would--functionally--be a Pi3B+ without the WiFi, but with the other new features, faster Ethernet, modestly faster CPU, PoE header, better thermal control. Not a strong case to be made for it, but not completely negligible, either.
As for a 64bit OS, we have been discussing this recently. Eventually it will have to happen.
Yes...that's been my take, too. The Pi0/Pi0W pose a conundrum to such a move, though.

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:59 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:46 pm
k-pi wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm
So basically a RPi3B+ with just 512MB ram & one USB port - does it boot from USB as does the RPi3B+, & if so, will it boot via an unpowered USB hub with keyboard & mouse, from a pendrive?

(Thinking of maybe using it as a media centre type of system.)
Don't forget it has no ethernet.
It would be a self contained system, with everything on the pendrive - if it can boot via USB unpowered hub.

Edit: Perhaps I should have said computer rather than system. ;)

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:16 pm

I will say that there is one point about the Pi3A+ that I find mildly surprising. Not the 512MB RAM...that makes sense. It's the power specification of 2.5A--same as the Pi3B+. With less RAM, and especially without the LAN chip, one would expect a lower power requirement.

I dare say that the usual suspects will do actual power requirement tests and compare the Pi3A+ to the Pi3B+ (and probably the Pi3B as well). One might suspect that the actual requirements will come in the better part of 500mA less for the Pi3A+.

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:42 pm

TBH, probably nohere nr tht high unless really loaded up. It's bound to be less then the 3B+, the LAN chip is quite power hungry.
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:06 pm

Cool, now we have a perfect RPi for robotics controllers (like the cartesian robots we call 3D printers :) ). Now someone is going to have to write a bare metal Bluthtooth interface (or at least one for RISC OS).

This is good news for sure. Just add a RAMPS style controller, a lot of code, a 7 inch SPI Display (so that it can be drivin from homebrew bare metal VideoCoreIV code), a few momentary switches, and we have a 3D printer controller that can use USB mass storage devices for the gcode files, and have the abiltity to take an STL and slice it on printer :) .

Yea we could do all this with the A+, though the 3A+ adds bluetooth, cores, and speed.
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:19 pm

https://medium.com/@ghalfacree/benchmar ... d4df181244

gives comprehensive benchmarks of the 3 A+ compared with the rest of the Pi family.

It confirms my expectation that under heavy CPU load it is nearly quite as power hungry as the 3B. but less than the 3 B+.
With no load the absence of Ethernet and USB hub is visible in much lower power draw.

So yea, the PSU 2.5A is not a bad idea!
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:20 pm

hansotten wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:19 pm
https://medium.com/@ghalfacree/benchmar ... d4df181244

gives comprehensive benchmarks of the 3 A+ compared with the rest of the Pi family.

It confirms my expectation that under heavy CPU load it is nearly quite as power hungry as the 3B. but less than the 3 B+.
With no load the absence of Ethernet and USB hub is visible in much lower power draw.

So yea, the PSU 2.5A is not a bad idea!
Thanks for that data. It looks like a Pi3A+ would run happily on a 1A supply, so long as any peripherals only require minimal power.

One very minor quibble with your data...when you compare to a "Pi 2", that would have to be a Pi2B...but which one? There is considerable difference between the Pi2Bv1.1 and the Pi2Bv1.2. A note specifying which version would be a good idea.

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:50 pm

Its not my data :)

Gareth Halfacree deserves the credit !
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:58 pm

k-pi wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm
So basically a RPi3B+ with just 512MB ram & one USB port - does it boot from USB as does the RPi3B+
...
FWIW, I've only recently (and briefly) played with USB booting, initially with P3B+ cloned image to a USB stick - powered off, removed uSD card and then tested booting. Subsequently moved the USB stick to a P3A+ and it also booted O.K. but, NB., this was without an additional hub, keyboard & mouse. (I VNC'd and SSH'd into it).
Trev.
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:17 pm

Probably one of those questions you wish didn't get asked, but I'm unrepentant: when will we see the schematic? And How much detail will we be allowed to see?

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Re: Pi 3 A+ !!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:49 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 am
We also have a roadmap for the next 5 years. Which could change, but not the Pi4, that's pretty much set in stone.
Can I be King Arthur the person who pulled the Pi from stone?
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Re: Pi 3 A+ !!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:03 pm

DarkPlatinum wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:49 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 am
We also have a roadmap for the next 5 years. Which could change, but not the Pi4, that's pretty much set in stone.
Can I be King Arthur the person who pulled the Pi from stone?
I believe that Dr. Upton has earned that privilege.

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:25 pm

It's quite funny to see 4-5 stars on all Raspberry Pi products on amazon, yet many other SBCs have 2-4 stars.
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:27 pm

I think someone needs to have a little chat with Premier Farnell as this https://www.newark.com/raspberry-pi/rpi ... p/80AC9303 page shows the Pi3A+ with a price of $47.30. Since it's a US site, that's without taxes.

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:35 pm

FTrevorGowen wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:58 pm
FWIW, I've only recently (and briefly) played with USB booting, initially with P3B+ cloned image to a USB stick - powered off, removed uSD card and then tested booting. Subsequently moved the USB stick to a P3A+ and it also booted O.K. but, NB., this was without an additional hub, keyboard & mouse. (I VNC'd and SSH'd into it).
Trev.
Thanks, Trev - should be OK then, as my RPi3B+ booted up via my unpowered USB hub. 8-)

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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:44 pm

I'm trying to be excited about this, but that RAM just kills it for me. Why would anyone need so much processing power, but next to no RAM?

Is it possible, provided one has the tools and skills, to remove the 512MB chip and replace it with a 1GB chip?
Theoretically it seems possible.

And before you complain, Jamesh, I ask because not everyone has the luxury of controlling how much RAM their software needs. Take Raspbian for example, it won't run on 32Kb.
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:12 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:44 pm
I'm trying to be excited about this, but that RAM just kills it for me. Why would anyone need so much processing power, but next to no RAM?

Is it possible, provided one has the tools and skills, to remove the 512MB chip and replace it with a 1GB chip?
Theoretically it seems possible.

And before you complain, Jamesh, I ask because not everyone has the luxury of controlling how much RAM their software needs. Take Raspbian for example, it won't run on 32Kb.
:lol: That is a smart comeback. Personally I hope the future Pi will not have stupid naming systems like the iPhone XS Max.
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:30 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:44 pm
I'm trying to be excited about this, but that RAM just kills it for me. Why would anyone need so much processing power, but next to no RAM?

Is it possible, provided one has the tools and skills, to remove the 512MB chip and replace it with a 1GB chip?
Theoretically it seems possible.

And before you complain, Jamesh, I ask because not everyone has the luxury of controlling how much RAM their software needs. Take Raspbian for example, it won't run on 32Kb.
Not everyone has to be excited about it. Those for whom it has no interest can remain unexcited, those for whom it does the job can be excited.

I believe Raspbian lite takes about 300MB, perhaps less. leaving over 200MB for your software to run in. You can do a lot in 200MB. Or roll your own distro, and you can get in under 100MB in use, leaving much more RAM for your software.

If you need more RAM, use a 3B+. It has more RAM.
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Re: STICKY: Pi 3 A+

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:32 pm

Burngate wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:17 pm
Probably one of those questions you wish didn't get asked, but I'm unrepentant: when will we see the schematic? And How much detail will we be allowed to see?
I imagine it will be the same as before. I wasn't given anything up front to upload to the docs, so will have to wait for the engineer to get back from holiday. Same with compliance docs.
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