raspnoobfan
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What? no Android support?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:11 am

Why don't you people support android on a pi. What's wrong with you.

Brandon92
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:16 am


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DougieLawson
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:16 am

It's clearly defined why the Educational Raspberry Pi Foundation have no interest in Android. It goes completely against their educational mission. Android isn't an open source eco-system - you're tied to the ways and whims of Google. Android doesn't teach anyone how computer hardware works. Android isn't an IoT (physical computing) OS. Android doesn't really offer much in the software space either (building an APK is largely a jigsaw of ready built components with a very small amount of user code).

If you want Android with support there are versions available for a suitable price.
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:21 am

raspnoobfan wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:11 am
Why don't you people support android on a pi. What's wrong with you.

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=71658&sid=9e6fa2c4 ... 9d65d232ac
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k-pi
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:26 am

Ye gods! No thank you, I don't want Android, it's an abomination of Linux! :lol: :D

I like a proper operating system, on a proper computer, with a (reasonably) big screen, a keyboard, & a mouse...........how it should be. :mrgreen:

jahboater
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:37 am

I tried Android on another SBC (Odroid C2) and frankly it was horrible.

Long live Raspbian!

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hansotten
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:02 pm

The RPi Foundation point of view is not as black and white as Dougie or Mahjong in the sticky state, look at the statement on Android Things e.g.

Quote from from raspberrypi.org:

WILL IT RUN ANDROID OR ANDROID THINGS?
Raspberry Pi themselves do not support the consumer version of Android that you may be familiar with from your mobile phone. There are community efforts to make a version available that can be found online.

Google supports Android Things on the Raspberry Pi 3 as a development platform. Android Things is a variant of the Android platform enabling developers to build software for embedded and Internet of Things (IoT) devices with the Android SDK. To learn more about the platform and how to get started, visit developer.android.com/things.
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:35 pm

We do not have enough staff, or indeed the inclination to support Android
It's huge, horrendously difficult to support, and for any decent performance needs more Ram

I've been on an android support team. Over 30 engineers, multiple year project. Most unpleasant at times.
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:44 pm

hansotten wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:02 pm
The RPi Foundation point of view is not as black and white as Dougie or Mahjong in the sticky state, look at the statement on Android Things e.g.

Quote from from raspberrypi.org:

WILL IT RUN ANDROID OR ANDROID THINGS?
Raspberry Pi themselves do not support the consumer version of Android that you may be familiar with from your mobile phone. There are community efforts to make a version available that can be found online.

Google supports Android Things on the Raspberry Pi 3 as a development platform. Android Things is a variant of the Android platform enabling developers to build software for embedded and Internet of Things (IoT) devices with the Android SDK. To learn more about the platform and how to get started, visit developer.android.com/things.

Android Things is supported as a Development Platform not as an End User Platform.
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hippy
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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:49 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:16 am
It's clearly defined why the Educational Raspberry Pi Foundation have no interest in Android. It goes completely against their educational mission.
Eben has said that half of all Pi sold go to commercial customers and I don't see how Android "goes completely against their educational mission".

I don't see how writing code, or learning to write code, targeted at Android is any different, any less educational, or has less value, than writing code for any other platform or framework.

Most criticisms levelled at Android can be pretty much applied to any OS, programming language or framework.
jahboater wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:37 am
I tried Android on another SBC (Odroid C2) and frankly it was horrible.
Running KongstaKANG's LineageOS 14.1 (Android 7.1.2) build for the Pi 3B was far from horrible for me.

Android on a Pi won't suit everyone but it rests on what one wants to do. If one wants to write apps for Android, learn how to do that, and have those apps run on a Pi, it's perfectly good for that.

If one wants other than that then Android is probably not the best choice for the job.

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Re: What?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:43 pm

hippy wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:49 pm
DougieLawson wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:16 am
It's clearly defined why the Educational Raspberry Pi Foundation have no interest in Android. It goes completely against their educational mission.
Eben has said that half of all Pi sold go to commercial customers and I don't see how Android "goes completely against their educational mission".

I don't see how writing code, or learning to write code, targeted at Android is any different, any less educational, or has less value, than writing code for any other platform or framework.

Most criticisms levelled at Android can be pretty much applied to any OS, programming language or framework.
jahboater wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:37 am
I tried Android on another SBC (Odroid C2) and frankly it was horrible.
Running KongstaKANG's LineageOS 14.1 (Android 7.1.2) build for the Pi 3B was far from horrible for me.

Android on a Pi won't suit everyone but it rests on what one wants to do. If one wants to write apps for Android, learn how to do that, and have those apps run on a Pi, it's perfectly good for that.

If one wants other than that then Android is probably not the best choice for the job.
You (generally) don't write code ON an Android device, you RUN code on an Android device. Android app development is done on a host PC. Unfortunately IIRC, its done on Eclipse, which does not have a recent ARM version. If anyone is able to compile the latest Eclipse for Pi, you are a certified genius. Even Debian have given up with Eclipse.

So, not Android is not a good learning to program platform. Raspbian, however, is.

As for commercial sales, we do indeed sell a lot in to commercial areas, but the profits go directly to education. Would we sell more if Anroid was supported? Perhaps. But not enough to pay for the development.
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Re: What? no Android support?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:59 pm

It's not part of Eclipse. But it does require 64bit with 3GB RAM minimum. The only requirement the Raspberry satisfies with it's hands tied behind its back is the 1200x800 screen size.

https://developer.android.com/studio/#downloads
There's no ARM build and no source code download so the ADK is a non-starter (just like Eclipse) on a Raspberry.
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Re: What? no Android support?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:24 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:43 pm
Android app development is done on a host PC. Unfortunately IIRC, its done on Eclipse
I used an old, slow, x86 laptop. Eclipse was too slow, so I did my builds using gedit and the general android tools, then transferred to the android device for testing. I only wrote one app (a customised RFID tag reader/writer for some specialist tags), and it worked.

I prefer to work on my Pi.

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Void Frost
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Re: What? no Android support?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:35 pm

There are like two versions of Android for the Raspberry pi 3 B+ and one is so laggy its unusable, and the other one i'm not sure about yet :D The problem with the new ones is the fact that they are android 8.0. As long as you are running a pi 3 B (with more support for OS'es) you may be able to run android without lag.
Anyway, here are some links.

Lineage OS (Android for pi): https://konstakang.com/devices/rpi3/
RaspAnd by Exton(android for pi):http://raspex.exton.se/
Raspis(Android and other things for pi): https://raspis.eu/
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Imperf3kt
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Re: What? no Android support?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:39 am

rpdom wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:24 pm
jamesh wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:43 pm
Android app development is done on a host PC. Unfortunately IIRC, its done on Eclipse
I used an old, slow, x86 laptop. Eclipse was too slow, so I did my builds using gedit and the general android tools, then transferred to the android device for testing. I only wrote one app (a customised RFID tag reader/writer for some specialist tags), and it worked.

I prefer to work on my Pi.
I'm a bit different, I dislike using my Pi to do this sort of work - it's too slow / unsupported.
I find it much easier to do my programming on a super budget Windows laptop (essentially a tablet - about the same size as a Pi - in a notebook shell) or an Android smartphone and then build it and transfer it to the Pi or convert my code to Android apk using Gradle for Android use.

At this point, my Pi collection gathers dust
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

hippy
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Re: What?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:52 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:43 pm
You (generally) don't write code ON an Android device, you RUN code on an Android device. Android app development is done on a host PC.
That's true, but that's how a lot of software development is done. In fact it has been the historical model for development of embedded systems and some still recommend it even when developing for a Pi.

It's the model for Windows 10 IoT and Ultibo development for a Pi.

I don't see much difference in what's being done and learned, whether developing on a Pi or developing for a Pi using some other platform. Software skills learned are often completely divorced from the platform they run on.
jamesh wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:43 pm
Unfortunately IIRC, its done on Eclipse, which does not have a recent ARM version.
Android Studio is what is currently recommended for Android code development.

I am told there are tools for developing Android apps on Linux and on ARM platforms but I don't have any personal experience of that.

I also don't know what is available for on-line development of comprehensive Android projects but MIT App Inventor 2 is great for simpler and educational projects and that runs on any platform with a decent browser including the Pi (Raspbian) and devices running Android. That's probably why there's such a large educational community grown around using that.

The bottom line is that one doesn't have to use native tools or be developing on the target platform for what one is doing to be educational or worthwhile. Doing so may bring more into the mix but it's not an essential.

One can even gain computer skills without ever seeing, owning or using a computer, though having access to one obviously helps. In the sixties, at junior school, I was taught flowcharting, logic and control processes. I wouldn't call that 'not educational' even though we had no access to any computers.

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Re: What? no Android support?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:58 pm

Actually, it appear Eclipse is no longer used, it's based on Netbeans now, and there is a fairly recent version of that that runs on the Pi, albeit a bit slowly. Not sure how recent it is though. So you could, probably, use a Pi for Android development.

But why bother?

As for actual Android running on the Pi, I remain entirely unconvinced there is much computer educational benefit to this. Certainly nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile having an official port, with the huge associated costs.
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hippy
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Re: What? no Android support?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:26 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:58 pm
But why bother?
It seems to me it's up to each individual to decide whether it's worth bothering with or not. I don't believe anyone should have to justify what they want to do; "because" is good enough for me.

And, for me, I find being able to run my Android apps on a Pi more convenient than having to port those apps to some other programming language, framework or OS to have them run on a Pi.

For those who are learning how to program or are being taught with a focus on Android it makes sense to have a Pi as part of that ecosystem rather than not.

Every Pi sold generates revenue for the Foundation's cause and it's better to have that revenue than not.

I'd rather give my money to the Foundation to run my Android apps than give it to some other Android device manufacturer who isn't doing the good work which the Foundation is doing, isn't supporting the Pi community in any way.

I wouldn't want to do Android development on a Pi. I do most of my development for the Pi on a PC anyway. But if people want to that's fine by me; that's their choice.
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:58 pm
As for actual Android running on the Pi, I remain entirely unconvinced there is much computer educational benefit to this. Certainly nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile having an official port, with the huge associated costs.
And that's fair enough and I think the current situation is acceptable; Android Things supported by Google, Android supported by the community.

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Re: What? no Android support?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:40 pm

Void Frost wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:35 pm
RaspAnd by Exton(android for pi)
Raspis(Android and other things for pi)
I'd like to advise everyone to stay away from _any_ release by Arne Exton. See viewtopic.php?f=73&t=224852#p1381343 & https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/commen ... s_9_build/.

Arne Exton has failed to provide Linux kernel source for his RaspAnd releases. Linux kernel is licensed under GPLv2 (https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licens ... .0.en.html) which obligates anyone distributing a binary to provide corresponding source code. Any RaspAnd release since December 15th 2017 is built based on my sources (https://github.com/lineage-rpi) and Linux kernel includes my work that is licensed under GPLv2. I feel that I've done some significant work merging together Raspberry and AOSP reference kernels and configuring it for this device and Android. This kernel wouldn't boot on any other device nor boot any other OS on the Pi.

I've also requested Linux kernel source code for another one of his Linux releases for Raspberry Pi and he only gave me a link to kernel.org. Nothing that you find on kernel.org will even boot on Raspberry Pi as the code for Pi hardware support is not included in mainline Linux...
Last edited by Konsta on Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What? no Android support?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:42 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:58 pm
As for actual Android running on the Pi, I remain entirely unconvinced there is much computer educational benefit to this. Certainly nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile having an official port, with the huge associated costs.
Any open source development can be very educational. :) While I agree that any official Android support/release by Broadcom/Pi Foundation is too much to ask, I'd still hope Broadcom/Pi Foundation could find ways to support open source efforts to run Android on the Pi. Main issue with running Android on the Pi has been graphics performance (RAM limitations only come second). Broadcom doesn't provide Android specific GPU drivers (as it's not an Android device to begin with) and using open source VC4 driver has its issues (well, we're using "old" kernel and old mesa version with LineageOS 14.1 so there's that, too). With Linux 4.14 used in newer Android versions (Oreo, Pie), using mainline graphics stack with Android (VC4 DRM, mesa, libdrm, drm_hwcomposer, gbm/minigbm_gralloc) should be possible(?). It would be great to see some effort from Broadcom/Pi Foundation to make this happen (or documentation if there's already been some efforts). If I'm not mistaken, it would also mean graphics on new Android versions could be supported with minimal effort pretty much indefinitely.

Even many LineageOS users have misconception what Android should be on the Pi. Somehow just because it's running Android, they think it should be a media/TV device or something that they can use for intensive gaming. It works for some users for some usecases and if it doesn't, that's just something they have to deal with. Mainly I've just viewed it as an open source development project and it's already allowed me to have some cool stuff (e.g. Linux 4.14 with Android that we'll maybe see on first retail Android devices next year and more commonly years after that). And it's just cool to have Android running on a device that isn't supposed to have Android. ;)

I'm personally moving away from Android development on the Raspberry Pi because of certain toxicity in the community. I see no reason why I would do any work for free and open source my efforts just that someone can take it and sell it for their own personal profit (while violating GPLv2 as well). I'll just rather eat that Pie myself. ;) I of course hope _open source_ efforts to run Android on the Pi continue.
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Re: What? no Android support?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:18 pm

The only Android support I have directly seen from Raspberry Pi Foundation is Android Things, by advertising it along with ways to use it in the magazines.
On the website, they use App Inventor II to create Android Apps for their Educational needs.
Also using the Android devices as a tool alongside the Pi or other Zombie finding activities.
So yes somebody does see Android as useful in Education.
That may not be Android actually running on the Pi.

This is, of course, the Foundation and not the Trading side.


It is great to see how flexible the Pi is with the community trying to get different OS's to work on it, Android, Risc, Windows etc.

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Re: What? no Android support?

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:23 am

Konsta wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:42 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:58 pm
As for actual Android running on the Pi, I remain entirely unconvinced there is much computer educational benefit to this. Certainly nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile having an official port, with the huge associated costs.
Any open source development can be very educational. :) While I agree that any official Android support/release by Broadcom/Pi Foundation is too much to ask, I'd still hope Broadcom/Pi Foundation could find ways to support open source efforts to run Android on the Pi. Main issue with running Android on the Pi has been graphics performance (RAM limitations only come second). Broadcom doesn't provide Android specific GPU drivers (as it's not an Android device to begin with) and using open source VC4 driver has its issues (well, we're using "old" kernel and old mesa version with LineageOS 14.1 so there's that, too). With Linux 4.14 used in newer Android versions (Oreo, Pie), using mainline graphics stack with Android (VC4 DRM, mesa, libdrm, drm_hwcomposer, gbm/minigbm_gralloc) should be possible(?). It would be great to see some effort from Broadcom/Pi Foundation to make this happen (or documentation if there's already been some efforts). If I'm not mistaken, it would also mean graphics on new Android versions could be supported with minimal effort pretty much indefinitely.

Even many LineageOS users have misconception what Android should be on the Pi. Somehow just because it's running Android, they think it should be a media/TV device or something that they can use for intensive gaming. It works for some users for some usecases and if it doesn't, that's just something they have to deal with. Mainly I've just viewed it as an open source development project and it's already allowed me to have some cool stuff (e.g. Linux 4.14 with Android that we'll maybe see on first retail Android devices next year and more commonly years after that). And it's just cool to have Android running on a device that isn't supposed to have Android. ;)

I'm personally moving away from Android development on the Raspberry Pi because of certain toxicity in the community. I see no reason why I would do any work for free and open source my efforts just that someone can take it and sell it for their own personal profit (while violating GPLv2 as well). I'll just rather eat that Pie myself. ;) I of course hope _open source_ efforts to run Android on the Pi continue.
Graphics was always (but not exclusively) the main issue with Android on the Pi. The VC4 graphics system doesn't really match up to that requried by Android. Of course, there have been VC4 firmwares that ran Android on things like Samsung phones (I worked on the camera stuff), but the amount of work required was huge. Of course, that work was done (8 years ago?), but we don't have much of it in the current image, and bringing it in after 5 years of firmware development without it would be a horrible job. And of course Android has changed massively in that time, so most of the work would need to be redone anyway.
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Re: What? no Android support?

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:33 pm

Android Things can run on the RPi3, but I doubt it's anything like the version of Android you'll find on the tablet or phone. It's for embedded IoT apps, not for use as a main OS.
Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop images for the Raspberry Pi 3.

https://github.com/CodeExecution/Ubuntu-ARM64-RPi

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Re: What? no Android support?

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:40 pm

code_exec wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:33 pm
Android Things can run on the RPi3, but I doubt it's anything like the version of Android you'll find on the tablet or phone. It's for embedded IoT apps, not for use as a main OS.

Android Things, will state again, is only supported by Google as a Development Platform.

The OP wants an End User fully functioning and supported version of Android.

Therefore Android Things has no relevance to the wants and desires (utopian dreams) of the OP..



The bottom line is one can buy a Consumer Device running Android 7/8/9 for less than the price of the RPi 3B+ SBC.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Android-SMALLR ... 07JG2CMBL/
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Re: What? no Android support?

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:15 pm

code_exec wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:33 pm
Android Things can run on the RPi3, but I doubt it's anything like the version of Android you'll find on the tablet or phone. It's for embedded IoT apps, not for use as a main OS.
Android Things is very much Android but the main difference is that it is intended to run only one specific Android app at start-up rather than a Launcher or Home Screen app. It is much like any other OS used in 'kiosk mode'.

That's fine if that's all one want but I believe you are right and the OP is looking for something more, a more typical 'full Android' experience out of the box. That's available but not officially Foundation supported.

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