scotty101
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:39 pm

noggin wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:22 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:07 pm
It's a shame Freeview/FreeviewPlay don't sell a reasonable priced program to use, given most the TVs /boxes run Linux or Android in the background anyway.
I'm afraid that's not likely to happen. Freeview HD licensing mandates the ability to use DTCP copy protection DRM on all recordings made of Freeview HD content. That restricts playback of material to the device the material was originally recorded on. I don't see this really being a popular application...
There are also ridiculous restrictions on "Freeview" boxes that prevent them from being able to automatically skip adverts.
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ab1jx
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:10 pm

scotty101 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:37 pm
wolf.z wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 pm
I wonder, how good the hardware developers handled the noise issue with the hat being such close to the "noisy" Pi itself in comparison to USB dongles.
If you look at the PCB almost the whole back side of it is a ground plane and there are huge number of vias between the layers of the PCB.
And there's probably no reason you couldn't cut a piece of aluminum with a gap where the connectors are, maybe cover both sides with tape for insulating purposes and put it between. In fact you could carefully design an aluminum (or copper or PCB with soldered seams) box to sit on there. Or one step further put a header into it with bypass caps on appropriate pins.

The pi bus has become sort of a standard with other SBC manufacturers also using it, that increases the chance of there being 3rd party add-ons. Seems like I've seen Vectorboard to fit so people can make their own. https://m.banggood.com/Experimental-Pla ... mds=search
Last edited by ab1jx on Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:32 pm

scotty101 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:39 pm
noggin wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:22 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:07 pm
It's a shame Freeview/FreeviewPlay don't sell a reasonable priced program to use, given most the TVs /boxes run Linux or Android in the background anyway.
I'm afraid that's not likely to happen. Freeview HD licensing mandates the ability to use DTCP copy protection DRM on all recordings made of Freeview HD content. That restricts playback of material to the device the material was originally recorded on. I don't see this really being a popular application...
There are also ridiculous restrictions on "Freeview" boxes that prevent them from being able to automatically skip adverts.
To be fair - given that Freeview is part-owned by ITV - you can see why they would want to avoid running a platform that helped reduce the income that they rely on to exist... They do let you FF through the ads, unlike some other platforms...

FreakShow!
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:43 pm

I've not been able to find reviews of people actually using this.

I currently have a RPi 3 set up with a Hauppauge WinTV-DualHD TV stick plugged in. I stream TV over the network using Plex. The Pi3 is just about managing to do the job, but it's not perfect. I've not tried it with two streams yet either.

Has anyone that has this been able to watch TV and give a typical CPU usage metric? Is this better optimised for the Pi or is this similar to the stick I have?

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DougieLawson
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:16 pm

I've got it playing Channel 4 SU2C from the live Freeview broadcast (UK Hannington) and the CPU indicator on the taskbar shows 11%. Top shows Kodi running at max 45% of one of the four cores.

That's on a 3B booted with Raspbian from a WD hard-drive.

Most of the heavy lifting is done on the TV tuner board.
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mooblie
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:21 pm

Regarding the antenna connection: I understand there is a female coax adapter included in the TV Hat kit, but is the connector actually on the TV Hat board known as an "MCX" socket, taking one of these plugs?:

Image

( I plan to case the unit, and I will be looking for a short pigtail cable, with an MCX plug to panel-mounted coax socket. )

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DougieLawson
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:37 pm

It does have an MCX socket on the board and is supplied with a PAL coax to MCX adapter.
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mooblie
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:41 pm

OK, thanks.

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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:26 am

FreakShow! wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:43 pm
I've not been able to find reviews of people actually using this.

I currently have a RPi 3 set up with a Hauppauge WinTV-DualHD TV stick plugged in. I stream TV over the network using Plex. The Pi3 is just about managing to do the job, but it's not perfect. I've not tried it with two streams yet either.

Has anyone that has this been able to watch TV and give a typical CPU usage metric? Is this better optimised for the Pi or is this similar to the stick I have?
It's not not a question of the hardware (USB/Hat), but of the software you are using. I'm using a USV-Sat-TV-Box, MuMuDVB as backend software and my own frontend. Just for testing:
Streaming a complete transponder (7 HD channels), watching one channel locally (omxplayerGUI), two more on other computers (RPi, omxplayerGUI), running top:

Code: Select all

top - 07:23:20 up  8:59,  1 user,  load average: 0,53, 0,62, 0,48
Tasks: 187 total,   3 running, 184 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
%Cpu(s): 10,9 us,  5,5 sy,  0,0 ni, 80,2 id,  0,0 wa,  0,0 hi,  3,4 si,  0,0 st
KiB Mem:    815592 total,   762624 used,    52968 free,    26084 buffers
KiB Swap:  1650684 total,       68 used,  1650616 free.   366916 cached Mem

  PID USER      PR  NI    VIRT    RES    SHR S  %CPU %MEM     TIME+ COMMAND                                                                       
 1924 pi        20   0   24260  21644   3320 R  26,1  2,7   3:53.65 mumudvb                                                                       
 2026 pi        20   0  143584  26108  14788 S  13,2  3,2   2:01.89 omxplayer.bin                                                                 
I think in your case Plex is the culprit.
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noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:10 am

FreakShow! wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:43 pm
I've not been able to find reviews of people actually using this.

I currently have a RPi 3 set up with a Hauppauge WinTV-DualHD TV stick plugged in. I stream TV over the network using Plex. The Pi3 is just about managing to do the job, but it's not perfect. I've not tried it with two streams yet either.

Has anyone that has this been able to watch TV and give a typical CPU usage metric? Is this better optimised for the Pi or is this similar to the stick I have?
TV Headend was using 30-40% CPU on a Pi 3B+ when streaming 3 DVB-T2 HD streams - BBC One HD, BBC Two HD and ITV HD - to three separate clients over Ethernet on my set-up, with no frame drops or corruption. A Pi Zero (with OTG Ethernet adaptor) was able to do the same without dropping frames or corruption too - but I forgot to run top on it. I ran out of clients to test with - but it looked to me as if streaming all 5 HD services on PSB3 (BBC One, BBC Two, ITV, C4 and C5 HD) might be feasible on a cabled 3B+ - though recording as well may push it hard (though that might depend whether you use a uSD card or USB storage)

Is your Plex install transcoding the received streams or just passing them through? If it's transcoding them - then the Pi may well run out of steam very quickly, particularly if the transcode is being done in software not the Pi GPU/VPU combo. If it's just passing them through untouched - then it should be fine - and I'd be surprised if it was struggling with a single stream - TV Headend can do at least 3 (and probably more)

AIUI Plex server often transcodes content - this may be the issue. (Transcoding needs a much more powerful platform than just streaming)

The major advantage of the TV uHAT over a USB DVB tuner is that the DVB transport stream (which can be up to 40.25Mbs) is not being carried over the Pi's single USB bus, and instead is being carried over SPI. This means that your full USB capacity is available for Ethernet and/or USB storage access.

Apart from shifting the bandwidth from the USB to SPI bus, the TV uHAT is doing pretty much the same thing as a USB DVB-T/T2 tuner, tuning the RF frequency, demodulating the DVB-T/T2 broadcasts to an MPEG2 transport streamm (*), and passing that transport stream across the USB or SPI bus to the Raspberry Pi.

Both the TV uHAT and many DVB-T/T2 USB dongles, I believe, offer optional PID filtering, where you can reduce the bandwidth of the transport stream being carried by filtering out PIDs of services you don't want/need, but AIUI this is optional and most DVB-T/T2 USB tuners and the TV uHAT can stream a full DVB-T/T2 mux transport stream. (This would allow you to demodulate PSB3 - which is a 40.25Mbs mux - but only send the PIDs (i.e. individual audio, video, subtitle and ancillary streams) for one channel - which would reduce the bitrate hugely. The PSB 3 HD video streams have an average bitrate of around 4.5Mbs - but can peak at over 16Mbs)

(*) Although the video and audio codecs used don't have to be MPEG2 or MP2 these days, when we also use H264/AVC and AAC audio, the transport stream standard we use is still based on the MPEG2 transport stream standard. (This can be confusing)

bromham
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:26 pm

I have the TV HAT running on a Pi Zero and it's impressive how well it works. The Zero is quite happy streaming to four separate devices (and probably more) simultaneously. Like others have found, the picture is very jerky and unwatchable when using the tvheadend web server but is perfect when using VLC as a client.

One question: can anyone suggest a suitable case for the Zero with TV Hat?

noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:39 pm

Just an update. Have installed my uHAT back on a Pi Zero W and am testing with the internal WiFi (previously I've used cabled Ethernet)

BBC One HD is streaming to an iPhone (using the TVH client) - occasional drop outs - but very occasional. The Zero W's WiFi is 2.4GHz only (understandable for a tenner) but just about copes. Personally I think I'd stick with a Pi 3B+ if you want to use WiFi from the Pi (but if you have an OTG Ethernet adaptor for a Zero) you'll get decent streaming performance I'd suggest.

Did a bit more research using my OTG Ethernet adaptor + PSU combo (designed for a Google Chromecast - but works very well with a Zero)

top reports TV Headend streaming 1 HD stream takes ~8-20% (peaks at 20% but drops to ~12%?) CPU on the Zero W
2 HD streams ~22-25%
3 HD streams ~30-33%
4 HD streams ~40-44% (This was BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, ITV HD and C4 HD)
top reports TV Headend running ideal takes ~3-6% on the Zero W.

Pretty impressive - and quite a cost effective solution.
Last edited by noggin on Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ab1jx
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:02 pm

Hmm, next you'll find a way to stream BBC One across the pond over internet. Video standards I can't use watching programs I can't get. Oh well, much wasted time any way, rotten grapes. :)

noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:31 pm

ab1jx wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:02 pm
Hmm, next you'll find a way to stream BBC One across the pond over internet. Video standards I can't use watching programs I can't get. Oh well, much wasted time any way, rotten grapes. :)
Oh - I've been doing that for quite a long time now :) I can watch any UK OTA channel wherever I am in the world thanks to a personal VPN server which lets me connect to my home LAN as if I were at home.

If I have decent broadband in the country I'm in I can watch at lossless quality, but if I'm bandwidth-poor my TV Headend server (running on an x86 box) can transcode to low bitrate MP4. (The Pi could probably do this with it's H264 encoder if it weren't for the requirement to deinterlace?)

(I originally had a DVB-T Slingbox 1st gen to do this - but the quality was not great. My home-made solution - coupled with broadband speeds increasing - is more satisfying. I've watched entire UK shows live from my hotel room via this route.)

noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:34 pm

bromham wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:26 pm
I have the TV HAT running on a Pi Zero and it's impressive how well it works. The Zero is quite happy streaming to four separate devices (and probably more) simultaneously. Like others have found, the picture is very jerky and unwatchable when using the tvheadend web server but is perfect when using VLC as a client.

One question: can anyone suggest a suitable case for the Zero with TV Hat?
That's a good question. I imagine two slices of laser cut acrylic and modified stand-offs might be a solution ? That wouldn't be a full case but would afford some protection?

For the Pi 3B+ I can imagine a neat case with an MCX (I thought it was SMA but was wrong I believe) to Belling-Lee pigtail cable to allow the RF socket to be neatly mounted - rather than hard attached to the uHAT.

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DougieLawson
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:41 am

ab1jx wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:02 pm
Hmm, next you'll find a way to stream BBC One across the pond over internet. Video standards I can't use watching programs I can't get. Oh well, much wasted time any way, rotten grapes. :)
You have to pay the GBP £150.50 BBC household tax (aka TV Licence) to be allowed to watch their output. Licences are only issued to UK residents with a UK post code. [There are some exceptions for blind, students and anyone over 74 years old.]

So sorry, you're not getting it streamed across the pond until I have to stop paying my BBC tax.
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Mettauk
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:07 pm

bromham wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:26 pm
I have the TV HAT running on a Pi Zero and it's impressive how well it works. The Zero is quite happy streaming to four separate devices (and probably more) simultaneously. Like others have found, the picture is very jerky and unwatchable when using the tvheadend web server but is perfect when using VLC as a client.

One question: can anyone suggest a suitable case for the Zero with TV Hat?
If you have access to a 3d printer there is one for the full size Pi at https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3174043

Edit: I've also posted a 3D model of the TV hat on Thingiverse to encourage someone to design a Zero case for the TV Hat https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3185096
Last edited by Mettauk on Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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john564
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 pm

noggin wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:31 pm

Oh - I've been doing that for quite a long time now :) I can watch any UK OTA channel wherever I am in the world thanks to a personal VPN server which lets me connect to my home LAN as if I were at home.
If I have decent broadband in the country I'm in I can watch at lossless quality, but if I'm bandwidth-poor my TV Headend server (running on an x86 box) can transcode to low bitrate MP4. (The Pi could probably do this with it's H264 encoder if it weren't for the requirement to deinterlace?)
(I originally had a DVB-T Slingbox 1st gen to do this - but the quality was not great. My home-made solution - coupled with broadband speeds increasing - is more satisfying. I've watched entire UK shows live from my hotel room via this route.)
Had the slingbox classic also, it was very good in analog times.
Could automatically adjust quality to bandwidth.
You could connect sky box or TV box, composite, and use remote control infer red remotely.
But it started to get hot, which is a dangerous sign. So its binned.
And before Raspberry PI, I had what was called a "plug computer" by Sheevaplug.

So yeah, I'm actually excited by this Raspberry TV Hat.
Hope it can tune in both Saorview and Freeview at same time.
Hope it can adjust to lower bandwidth for live.
Plan to use big harddisk and PVR.

noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:13 am

john564 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 pm
Had the slingbox classic also, it was very good in analog times.
Could automatically adjust quality to bandwidth.
You could connect sky box or TV box, composite, and use remote control infer red remotely.
But it started to get hot, which is a dangerous sign. So its binned.
Yep - mine ran very hot, so was retired.
So yeah, I'm actually excited by this Raspberry TV Hat.
Hope it can tune in both Saorview and Freeview at same time.
Hope it can adjust to lower bandwidth for live.
Plan to use big harddisk and PVR.
No reason why you can't have both Freeview and Saorview in the same line-up - though you may have to manually edit channel numbers if the LCNs (broadcaster specified) channel numbers are duplicated on both platforms. As it's a single tuner you won't be able to watch/record channels on different frequencies at the same time though.

If you want to stream over the internet, and don't have a high bandwidth connection, then TV Headend will need to transcode to reduce the bitrate of the TV stream. The Pi may not be a great choice for this as it may run out of CPU power (there have been some experimental builds of TV Headend that use the Pi's internal H264 encoder to assist with this - but I don't think they handled interlace that well?) I'd only consider it with a 3B+ these days.

gkreidl
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:33 am

noggin wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:13 am
...
If you want to stream over the internet, and don't have a high bandwidth connection, then TV Headend will need to transcode to reduce the bitrate of the TV stream. The Pi may not be a great choice for this as it may run out of CPU power (there have been some experimental builds of TV Headend that use the Pi's internal H264 encoder to assist with this - but I don't think they handled interlace that well?) I'd only consider it with a 3B+ these days.
I've published a separate real time transcoding package for the RPi which uses the GPU:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=123876

I cannot guarantee that it will work with a tvheadend, but some users of my older version have reported that they got it to work with tvheadend.
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noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:31 pm

gkreidl wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:33 am
noggin wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:13 am
...
If you want to stream over the internet, and don't have a high bandwidth connection, then TV Headend will need to transcode to reduce the bitrate of the TV stream. The Pi may not be a great choice for this as it may run out of CPU power (there have been some experimental builds of TV Headend that use the Pi's internal H264 encoder to assist with this - but I don't think they handled interlace that well?) I'd only consider it with a 3B+ these days.
I've published a separate real time transcoding package for the RPi which uses the GPU:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=123876

I cannot guarantee that it will work with a tvheadend, but some users of my older version have reported that they got it to work with tvheadend.
I'll give it a look.

florca
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:32 pm

I've been playing with one of these attached to an original PiB+ (I think the oldest device it will work with?). Bought one out of interest to see how it stacks up against an XBox One TV tuner attached to my CM3-modded Slice running the latest LibreElec, which works well as a general purpose, family-friendly PVR and general video player.

It will, just about, both receive and play Live TV via Raspian Lite + tvheadend using either omxplayer (with a FIFO pipe as per instructions here: https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... thout-kodi ) or pidvbip as per here: viewtopic.php?t=99011 (build using the GitHub fork in the latest post, and make sure you set gpu_mem to at least 128 to avoid baffling segfaults). Not sure either of these are really practical for day to day use, but quite impressed that it will work at all.

As a standalone tvheadend server it works brilliantly - attached to the same aerial (log periodic, medium signal strength) as the Xbox One tuner it seems to be slightly more stable / resilient (the Xbox tuner gets sporadic Transmission / Continuity errors, the TV Hat none) and as per other posts has the advantage that by using SPI rather than USB interface you should be able to serve / record more concurrent streams due to lower USB contention.

Very happy camper!

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mooblie
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:18 pm

noggin wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:34 pm

For the Pi 3B+ I can imagine a neat case with an MCX (I thought it was SMA but was wrong I believe) to Belling-Lee pigtail cable to allow the RF socket to be neatly mounted - rather than hard attached to the uHAT.
I too have been looking for an MCX-to-Belling-Lee pigtail, but can't find one that includes a panel-mounted Belling-Lee anywhere. May have to make one up from components.

noggin
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:53 pm

mooblie wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:18 pm
noggin wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:34 pm

For the Pi 3B+ I can imagine a neat case with an MCX (I thought it was SMA but was wrong I believe) to Belling-Lee pigtail cable to allow the RF socket to be neatly mounted - rather than hard attached to the uHAT.
I too have been looking for an MCX-to-Belling-Lee pigtail, but can't find one that includes a panel-mounted Belling-Lee anywhere. May have to make one up from components.
There are few MCX to F-types around, and Belling to F-type adaptors and cables are available. That might be a solution?

You can also get MCX to SMA bulkhead pigtails - which might also be a neat solution?

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mooblie
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Re: New TV Tuner from HQ

Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:41 pm

Some good ideas for alternatives there. Thanks!

For a neat solution (acceptable to SWMBO) I was thinking of mounting a Pi+TVhat in an old set-top Freeview tuner box (available at all good car-boots for a quid or two). But the Belling-Lee sockets on those are usually either PCB-mounted or fixed to a UHF tuner module - not much use. :(
Last edited by mooblie on Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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