gcolello
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:34 pm

The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:38 pm

[Note, "mahjongg"'s original post (Please don't call this OS "Raspbian"!) was locked, forcing me to create this new post. Sorry]...

I love the Raspberry Pi Foundation and everything associated with it, so take all the following with the appropriate grain of salt...

I appreciate "mahjongg" pointing out that the correct name to refer to the PC version of Raspberry Pi Desktop is (probably?) something like the name of this forum "The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac based on Debian Stretch"? That's a lot of words for this age of acronyms, and I 'm not even sure why it's all needed (legal reasons?).

This is what is posted on the foundation's download pages for its two respective main products:

------------------------
RASPBIAN STRETCH WITH DESKTOP
Image with desktop based on Debian Stretch

DEBIAN STRETCH WITH RASPBERRY PI DESKTOP
The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac - based on Debian Stretch
------------------------

I think it takes a careful eye to spot or understand the differences. But yes, "The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac - based on Debian Stretch" does stand out in there.

However, I found myself wanting to answer a question, "What is "Debian" exactly, and how does "Desktop" fit into that picture?" And what's the nomenclature focus all about?

First I discovered Debian is currently called "Debian 9 - Stretch".

Second, the following is from the Debian Wiki, "DebianDesktopHowTo" (https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktopHowTo), used when you install Debian itself (my Bolding for emphasis):

------------------------
Select a Desktop Environment

To select the desktop environment that the debian-installer installs, enter "Advanced options" on the boot screen and scroll down to "Alternative desktop environments".

[DEFAULT:] Otherwise, debian-installer will choose GNOME.

KDE is of course a renowned, heavy alternative.

Xfce is a fast and light alternative, and especially suited if you were using GNOME 2 and find GNOME 3 disappointing.

For older computers, consider using LXDE or Xfce, because they are less resource-hungry than GNOME or KDE.

Or, you may choose e17 (Enlightenment), a new candidate that also features a touchscreen mode.
------------------------

Ok. Debian Stretch comes with 5 desktop choices. Note that "Raspbian Pi Desktop" is not one of them, but that's understandable; because it's not a built-in alternative.

What's not understandable to me in this age of acronyms is why "Raspbian Pi Desktop", which is a clearly recognizable assemblage, does not have a simple formal name, like GNOME? That way people referring to it do not need to write long things like "The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac based on Debian Stretch".

Frankly it seems easier to me to simply refer to the base version as "Raspbian Stretch", and then the PC/MAC version as "Raspbian Stretch PC", and who cares about all the underlying particulars (for example, I left out MAC, a particular).

But apparently "Raspbian" is not technically the name of the desktop. It's the name of the OS (I guess)? But even that is hard to understand, since the OS is always really Debian under the hood. Raspbian then is a particular set of Linux-level changes to Debian; but then it also comes bundled with a custom desktop, which is not called Raspbian?

So then what is the desktop's official name? Thinking historically, I believe that desktop was referred to as "Pixel" not too long ago. Is that still true?

SUMMARY:

Yes, in this IT business, nomenclature matters, but it's up to the originators to come up with and post prominently simple product names, and explain the reasons, that are legally valid for the rest of us to use.

I vote for "Raspbian Stretch" and "Raspbian Stretch PC", which is apparently in complete disagreement with "mahjongg".

But of course nobody put this up for a vote.

Just saying...

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 20924
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:47 pm

gcolello wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:38 pm
[Note, "mahjongg"'s original post (Please don't call this OS "Raspbian"!) was locked, forcing me to create this new post. Sorry]...

I love the Raspberry Pi Foundation and everything associated with it, so take all the following with the appropriate grain of salt...

I appreciate "mahjongg" pointing out that the correct name to refer to the PC version of Raspberry Pi Desktop is (probably?) something like the name of this forum "The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac based on Debian Stretch"? That's a lot of words for this age of acronyms, and I 'm not even sure why it's all needed (legal reasons?).

This is what is posted on the foundation's download pages for its two respective main products:

------------------------
RASPBIAN STRETCH WITH DESKTOP
Image with desktop based on Debian Stretch

DEBIAN STRETCH WITH RASPBERRY PI DESKTOP
The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac - based on Debian Stretch
------------------------

I think it takes a careful eye to spot or understand the differences. But yes, "The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac - based on Debian Stretch" does stand out in there.

However, I found myself wanting to answer a question, "What is "Debian" exactly, and how does "Desktop" fit into that picture?" And what's the nomenclature focus all about?

First I discovered Debian is currently called "Debian 9 - Stretch".

Second, the following is from the Debian Wiki, "DebianDesktopHowTo" (https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktopHowTo), used when you install Debian itself (my Bolding for emphasis):

------------------------
Select a Desktop Environment

To select the desktop environment that the debian-installer installs, enter "Advanced options" on the boot screen and scroll down to "Alternative desktop environments".

[DEFAULT:] Otherwise, debian-installer will choose GNOME.

KDE is of course a renowned, heavy alternative.

Xfce is a fast and light alternative, and especially suited if you were using GNOME 2 and find GNOME 3 disappointing.

For older computers, consider using LXDE or Xfce, because they are less resource-hungry than GNOME or KDE.

Or, you may choose e17 (Enlightenment), a new candidate that also features a touchscreen mode.
------------------------

Ok. Debian Stretch comes with 5 desktop choices. Note that "Raspbian Pi Desktop" is not one of them, but that's understandable; because it's not a built-in alternative.

What's not understandable to me in this age of acronyms is why "Raspbian Pi Desktop", which is a clearly recognizable assemblage, does not have a simple formal name, like GNOME? That way people referring to it do not need to write long things like "The Raspberry Pi Desktop OS for PC and Mac based on Debian Stretch".

Frankly it seems easier to me to simply refer to the base version as "Raspbian Stretch", and then the PC/MAC version as "Raspbian Stretch PC", and who cares about all the underlying particulars (for example, I left out MAC, a particular).

But apparently "Raspbian" is not technically the name of the desktop. It's the name of the OS (I guess)? But even that is hard to understand, since the OS is always really Debian under the hood. Raspbian then is a particular set of Linux-level changes to Debian; but then it also comes bundled with a custom desktop, which is not called Raspbian?

So then what is the desktop's official name? Thinking historically, I believe that desktop was referred to as "Pixel" not too long ago. Is that still true?

SUMMARY:

Yes, in this IT business, nomenclature matters, but it's up to the originators to come up with and post prominently simple product names, and explain the reasons, that are legally valid for the rest of us to use.

I vote for "Raspbian Stretch" and "Raspbian Stretch PC", which is apparently in complete disagreement with "mahjongg".

But of course nobody put this up for a vote.

Just saying...

Raspbian is fork of Debian ARMHF simple and unquestionable fact.


RDP is a good shorthand for the fork of the LXDE Desktop Environment.


Therefore why not ?

Debian x86 with RPD
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Retired disgracefully.....

hippy
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Location: UK

Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:01 pm

It was all much easier when it was called "PIXEL". That was however an unwise choice of name and had to go but something similarly one word, short and snappy, would solve a lot of problems.

Maybe it's time for a competition ?

hippy
Posts: 6089
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:14 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:47 pm
RDP is a good shorthand for the fork of the LXDE Desktop Environment.
I am not exactly sure how and it is likely to get confused with the well know Remote Desktop Protocol.

Or did you mean "RPD" for "Raspberry Pi Desktop" ? The problem there may be that people mistype that, write RDP when they mean RPD.

And, as noted when the issue of naming was previously discussed, "RPD" also clashes with other acronyms, including RealPresence Desktop which could even add to the confusion.

mikerr
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Contact: Website

Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:46 pm

Or they could just formally name it "raspbian x86", as many call it already.
Android app - Raspi Card Imager - download and image SD cards - No PC required !

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The Traveler
Posts: 360
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:49 pm

I think we should just call it "Bob".
Retired IT professional, C programmer and "beardie weirdie".
RPi interests: Developing an Infinite Improbability Drive
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rpdom
Posts: 15412
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Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:03 pm

The Traveler wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:49 pm
I think we should just call it "Bob".
Or "Kate" for short.

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DougieLawson
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:16 pm

Is there anyone apart from FruitOfTheLoom who actually cares what Bob or Kate is called?

"Debian X86 with RPiD" is a good non-ambiguous name for the Debian stuff with the Raspberry Pi Desktop.
"Raspbian with RPiD" is a good name for plain old full fat Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop.

Calling it RPiD rather than RPD removes any confusion with XRDP and such-like.
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mattmiller
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:26 pm

How about

RPiD x86

If (for legal reasons it needs to include Debian then RPiD Debian x86 or even just RPiD Debian)

or course I personally would vote for kate

or Katherine to keep it even shorter

fruitoftheloom
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Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: The Name Of The Thing

Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:42 pm

Actually this was discussed extensively and any mention of Raspbian for the Debian x86 version caused questions being asked in the wrong forum and wrong answers therefore being given.....


x86 Debian is about as short as one can get, because without x86 it could be confused with ARMeL Debian.


So yes I am pedantic, but why should volunteers have there time wasted by Posters who can not accept it is not Raspbian, probably over half the posts were moved into the x86 Debian forum......
Retired disgracefully.....

kevinthefixer
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:36 pm

Re: The Name Of The Thing

Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:11 am

DougieLawson wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:16 pm
Calling it RPiD rather than RPD removes any confusion with XRDP and such-like.
Possibly I'm just being something-or-other, as my better half would say. But I'd say: Debian x86 RPiDE. Not ambiguous, descriptive to anyone who might be interested, accurate, legal.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:00 am

I use Raspbian for Pi's and Raspbian Desktop for the PC version.
What about Thing1 and Thing2?

Or Thing6 for ArmV6 , Thing7, Thing8 for ARMv8 and Thing86 for x86, Thing64 for x86_64.

Pi's are UK invented so Clive or Nigel?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
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bensimmo
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:02 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:42 pm
Actually this was discussed extensively and any mention of Raspbian for the Debian x86 version caused questions being asked in the wrong forum and wrong answers therefore being given.....


x86 Debian is about as short as one can get, because without x86 it could be confused with ARMeL Debian.


So yes I am pedantic, but why should volunteers have there time wasted by Posters who can not accept it is not Raspbian, probably over half the posts were moved into the x86 Debian forum......
Why can't some people just take it and run with the popular name Raspbian x86 and get on with life. All the helpers know what it means, otherwise they wouldn't be so pissy about it. Yes they may miss the x86 or Debian bit but that is life.


Raspbian is just a name, just as Raspberry Pi can mean the charity, the company, the product or a miss-spelling of something tasty.

Perhaps it's time to leave this forum that belittles people for using a 'general public's name. Locking topics for some naming, ffs.
Also it'll test out the GDPR for data removal.
Liz needs to get a hold and sort these thing out.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:18 am

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:02 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:42 pm
Actually this was discussed extensively and any mention of Raspbian for the Debian x86 version caused questions being asked in the wrong forum and wrong answers therefore being given.....


x86 Debian is about as short as one can get, because without x86 it could be confused with ARMeL Debian.


So yes I am pedantic, but why should volunteers have there time wasted by Posters who can not accept it is not Raspbian, probably over half the posts were moved into the x86 Debian forum......
Why can't some people just take it and run with the popular name Raspbian x86 and get on with life. All the helpers know what it means, otherwise they wouldn't be so oossu about it.

Raspbian is just a name, just as Raspberry Pi can mean the charity, the company, the product or a miss-spelling of something tasty.

Nowhere does Raspbian appear in the download page, therefore there is no reason for people to call it Raspbian because that is not what they downloaded:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/r ... i-desktop/

It is not my problem people can not be bothered to read the page, pampering to their whims is not helpful..

...and this has all been discussed before and only keeps being regurgitated by people do not like being told they are mistaken........

:roll:
Retired disgracefully.....

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bensimmo
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:27 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:18 am
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:02 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:42 pm
Actually this was discussed extensively and any mention of Raspbian for the Debian x86 version caused questions being asked in the wrong forum and wrong answers therefore being given.....


x86 Debian is about as short as one can get, because without x86 it could be confused with ARMeL Debian.


So yes I am pedantic, but why should volunteers have there time wasted by Posters who can not accept it is not Raspbian, probably over half the posts were moved into the x86 Debian forum......
Why can't some people just take it and run with the popular name Raspbian x86 and get on with life. All the helpers know what it means, otherwise they wouldn't be so oossu about it.

Raspbian is just a name, just as Raspberry Pi can mean the charity, the company, the product or a miss-spelling of something tasty.

Nowhere does Raspbian appear in the download page, therefore there is no reason for people to call it Raspbian because that is not what they downloaded:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/r ... i-desktop/

It is not my problem people can not be bothered to read the page, pampering to their whims is not helpful..

...and this has all been discussed before and only keeps being regurgitated by people do not like being told they are mistaken........

:roll:
And it will continue to be until Raspbian Desktop x86/ARM can be branded properly without some stupid long name.

People get along fine with Android, iPhone, Windows as common names without caring about what is underneath.

The same could be said for Raspbian (Pi ARM) given they don't mention the version name...
But it's not something posts or posters should be locked or chastised for (moved that's fine, same for any post that would do better in another area) just because the user doesn't know or see the difference.

jahboater
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Re: The Name Of The Thing

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:32 am

mattmiller wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:26 pm
or course I personally would vote for kate
"Kate" might be confused with the editor provided with the KDE desktop ....

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