RDPUser
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Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:08 pm

There is no "Thanks" button or anything similiar, so please to support me, just Post an answer in this thread like "Keep PM (private message) function for a good working Raspberry PI community and help between users"

I just got a mail that the private messaging function wil be disable because of a lacking robust age verification?!?
I've never heard such a stupid thing, sorry.

There are a lot of things that are better said via PM. For example a user makes a big mistake in his tutorial, but has done a great Job. I don't want to blame him in front of all other users, so I send him a PM.

Or I want to ask a user directly, so I PM him, because I'm not sure if he notices my message in this thread full of other posts.

Or I want to ask him to meet him personally. Should everyone else know where we live? Should he post his E-Mail Address to get Spam every day?

Losing PM function is like a severe injury. It will be a great damage to the raspberry pi community.

I could go on writing reasons for a PM system, but I think everyone knows what bad impacts it would have.

There is no "Thanks" button or anything similiar, so please to support me, just Post an answer in this thread like "Keep PM (private message) function for a good working Raspberry PI community and help between users"

hippy
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:18 pm

I am not entirely familiar with GDPR nor COPPA but I would accept the Foundation's view that Private Messaging has to be removed because of potential non-compliance with either then there is little choice but to do that, no matter how inconvenient, no matter how useful it may be seen by some.

It's not really a decision which has been chosen by the Foundation but one which has been forced upon them by external factors.

The email from Eben did indicate that Private Messaging may be reinstated if they are confident it can be done in a way which is compliant with GDPR and COPPA.

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RaTTuS
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:19 pm

no thanks it is 99% of the time much better to do it via the forums
the foundation is not a private messaging service
you could always put a relevant email address in your sig if you want PM's
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klricks
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:22 pm

When I get a p.m. I refer the user back to the public forum if I replied all.
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated Raspbian Buster w/ Desktop OS.

RDPUser
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:29 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:18 pm
I am not entirely familiar with GDPR nor COPPA but I would accept the Foundation's view that Private Messaging has to be removed because of potential non-compliance with either then there is little choice but to do that, no matter how inconvenient, no matter how useful it may be seen by some.

It's not really a decision which has been chosen by the Foundation but one which has been forced upon them by external factors.

The email from Eben did indicate that Private Messaging may be reinstated if they are confident it can be done in a way which is compliant with GDPR and COPPA.
These laws were meant to protect us, but instead of protection us, they limit us, make life harder, so we should think for our own and shouldn't follow them, when they harm us. This is the internet a world wide network to help and collaborate. No one should regulate here andything. There are a lot of islands where you can register domains and there goverments can be angry till they die, they can't prevent you from making the world better.
you could always put a relevant email address in your sig if you want PM's
And get spam mails multiple times a day, no thanks.

Instead of fighting against these spammers they regulate our own life to death!

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bensimmo
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:34 pm

No support from me either.
I've tended to ignore PMs as we can all learn from what is written.
Unfortunately more work for Mods potentially.
But then safety of children comes first.
And you really don't want to see how much they can be fined.
Let alone all the other GDPR parts.


For a skim over GDPR if you are in the UK, with respect to techy users. A recent BBC click covered parts of it.

But that's not all.
I've had a lengthy video to watch recently.

hippy
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:35 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:29 pm
These laws were meant to protect us, but instead of protection us, they limit us, make life harder, so we should think for our own and shouldn't follow them, when they harm us.
Unfortunately the Foundation and/or those responsible for providing a service which is non-compliant will be the ones finding themselves in court, held responsible, fined, and punished. It is not reasonable to expect them to not comply with the law.
Last edited by hippy on Mon May 21, 2018 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bensimmo
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:36 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:29 pm
hippy wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:18 pm
I am not entirely familiar with GDPR nor COPPA but I would accept the Foundation's view that Private Messaging has to be removed because of potential non-compliance with either then there is little choice but to do that, no matter how inconvenient, no matter how useful it may be seen by some.

It's not really a decision which has been chosen by the Foundation but one which has been forced upon them by external factors.

The email from Eben did indicate that Private Messaging may be reinstated if they are confident it can be done in a way which is compliant with GDPR and COPPA.
These laws were meant to protect us, but instead of protection us, they limit us, make life harder, so we should think for our own and shouldn't follow them, when they harm us. This is the internet a world wide network to help and collaborate. No one should regulate here andything. There are a lot of islands where you can register domains and there goverments can be angry till they die, they can't prevent you from making the world better.
you could always put a relevant email address in your sig if you want PM's
And get spam mails multiple times a day, no thanks.

Instead of fighting against these spammers they regulate our own life to death!
The internet needs regulating, we live in different worlds and societies. Let alone brainwashing children and adults via fake made up stories.
It's not a utopia it was once thought it could be.

Hence the laws of the countries still stand.
Last edited by bensimmo on Mon May 21, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

k-pi
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:41 pm

The forums are a gift to us from the makers, we don't pay the bills, nor do we have the problem of keeping up with legislation about how data is to be used.

I'm very sure those running this free service for us considered the facts very carefully. 8-)

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piglet
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:42 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:08 pm
For example a user makes a big mistake in his tutorial, but has done a great Job. I don't want to blame him in front of all other users, so I send him a PM.
I've done this over the weekend, and the tutorial was updated.

Also used to help someone and get help related to on-topic things which couldn't be said in a forum.

However, I trust the team here to do the right thing - even though in the vast majority of cases it's going to limit the community a bit.

I do think it's a somewhat stupid set of regulations...but the foundation have no choice here.

jdb
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:47 pm

piglet wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:42 pm

I do think it's a somewhat stupid set of regulations...but the foundation have no choice here.
More accurately, the regulations (especially COPPA) are ill-defined in some quite important aspects and it will take several test-cases (i.e. organisations getting sued or prosecuted) before the second-order effects are mapped out. The safe default is to disable features that are thrown into a legally grey area.
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RDPUser
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:50 pm

But then safety of children comes first.
Please explain what PM hast to do with safty of children? If children are in danger here their parents have done something wrong.

Luckyly the UK is soon not part oft the EU anymore so no worries to bother with their stupid regulations.
Unfortunately the Foundation and/or those responsible for providing a service which is non-compliant will be the ones finding themselves in court, held responsible, fined, and punished. It is not reasonable to expect them to not comply with the law.
A government and everyone who helps them to punish somebody because he hasn’t disabled a PM system hast to be sentenced to jail FOR LIFETIME.

However I see most of the user don’t deserve any other government. They accept even the stupidiest regulations. I bet the would even pay for the oxygen if the government started to take money for it.
This is the begining and continuation oft he lose of creativity. Most of the people don’t think anymore, they are thought and seem to like it.
Please go to your own country, destroy yourself and let us people life happily together.

jdb
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 1:54 pm

Edited thread for readability (no gigantic blocks of text please).

Also, if this thread ends up being a continued rant by the OP, it's going to get locked.
Rockets are loud.
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RDPUser
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:02 pm

Imagine there are no PMs any more and you want to get directly in contact with a specifific user. You would have to post in any of his threads, so everyone else must read this message. This consumes in sum a lot of time of the society. So if this law really wants this, it is one of the most anti social laws every. So please use your brain and think yourself. Are you anti-social?

The single fact that we now discuss about this steals the society a valuable amount of time we could use to make these planet a better place.

epoch1970
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm

I say let RPF and its representatives stay safe from potential legal trouble. This is their home, we are merely invited.
If this means killing PMs under the new regulation, so be it.

Here are the alternative social networks/accounts you can (currently?) declare in your forum profile: Website, ICQ, Yahoo Messenger, AOL, Facebook, Google+, Skype, Twitter, YouTube. Do we really need more?
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droleary
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:13 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:08 pm
I just got a mail that the private messaging function wil be disable because of a lacking robust age verification?!?
I've never heard such a stupid thing, sorry.
Really? I hear dumber stuff every day when I tune in to the world's political reporting.
There are a lot of things that are better said via PM. For example a user makes a big mistake in his tutorial, but has done a great Job. I don't want to blame him in front of all other users, so I send him a PM.
The scientific process is inherently one of transparent dialog. The flip side of publish or perish is that you have to accept public corrections. Just because you're trying to be discrete in how you "blame" someone for an error, nobody should be posting with the expectation that everyone is going to do that.
Or I want to ask a user directly, so I PM him, because I'm not sure if he notices my message in this thread full of other posts.
That's a pretty selfish reason to be bothering someone directly. Regardless of their age, it should be the recipient who controls how their time is spent interacting with other people in these forums. If they never ask for a PM, you never should be sending one.
Or I want to ask him to meet him personally.
And this is why laws get enacted to prevent contact between adults and underage children. Even between adults, consent is a major issue, and most forum messaging software does a very poor job of stopping the creepy stalkers.
Should everyone else know where we live? Should he post his E-Mail Address to get Spam every day?
There are many solutions to spam, including disposable email addresses. There are also many other ways to contact someone outside the forums. As long as users can still link to their web site, you likely have a way to reach them that is under their control.
Losing PM function is like a severe injury. It will be a great damage to the raspberry pi community.
Will it? I would wager that most people have never sent or received a PM, and everyone who has (and it was welcome) probably then quickly transitioned to a way to communicate outside the forum. Where is your evidence of harm?

jamesh
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:17 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:50 pm
But then safety of children comes first.
Please explain what PM hast to do with safty of children? If children are in danger here their parents have done something wrong.

Luckyly the UK is soon not part oft the EU anymore so no worries to bother with their stupid regulations.
Unfortunately the Foundation and/or those responsible for providing a service which is non-compliant will be the ones finding themselves in court, held responsible, fined, and punished. It is not reasonable to expect them to not comply with the law.
A government and everyone who helps them to punish somebody because he hasn’t disabled a PM system hast to be sentenced to jail FOR LIFETIME.

However I see most of the user don’t deserve any other government. They accept even the stupidiest regulations. I bet the would even pay for the oxygen if the government started to take money for it.
This is the begining and continuation oft he lose of creativity. Most of the people don’t think anymore, they are thought and seem to like it.
Please go to your own country, destroy yourself and let us people life happily together.
Being in or out of the EU is irrelevant (in this case), since the forum is used worldwide we need to comply with all the regulations, in Europe, in USA, in the UK et al.

As for safeguarding children, as I understand it (and I am a governor at a primary school and get safeguarding drummed in at every opportunity) by continuing to allow PM's we cannot ensure that children will not be approached in an undesirable fashion, because we do not have any age data on users. This immediately rings up alarm bells with regard to GDPR and COPPA. Since there have been no court cases to really sort out the law, we are taking the side of being extra cautious - and we HAVE consulted lawyers about this. A legal case would be horribly expensive, no point in putting heads above the parapet unless we need to.
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RDPUser
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:24 pm

Here are the alternative social networks/accounts you can (currently?) declare in your forum profile: Website, ICQ, Yahoo Messenger, AOL, Facebook, Google+, Skype, Twitter, YouTube. Do we really need more?
I don't have any of theese.
and we HAVE consulted lawyers about this.
Does the government give you back this money? Otherwise you have wasted it because of their stupid regulations. Money we could have used to help people in the 3rd world to get started with programming. So they damage they have done and anti social behaviour is even bigger than estimated.
There are many solutions to spam, including disposable email addresses.
So you always keep checking your disposable email addresses over a long time? Do you know that somebody will have a question after a few years to your topic? You still check your disposable email?
Will it? I would wager that most people have never sent or received a PM, and everyone who has (and it was welcome) probably then quickly transitioned to a way to communicate outside the forum.
So if its so seldom used why there should be a danger? Do you forbid knives because sometimes people are killed with them?
If they never ask for a PM, you never should be sending one.
I don't get notifications about my topics, but if someone sends me a PM I get a mail and I'm willing to answer and help.
And this is why laws get enacted to prevent contact between adults and underage children.
So it is now forbidden to talk to children? What image of a FREE society is this???
Imagine there is a really clever 8 year old boy who writes his own programs for Raspberry PI and has a question. Do you want to prevent him from posting here? From learing? Do you really want to stop him just because he is too young in your eyes? With this attitude we'll never find the next Einstein or Mozart!

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liz
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:36 pm

We're reluctantly turning off PMs precisely BECAUSE there are kids like your hypothetical bright 8-year-old who participate in these forums. This is a welcoming place for kids, but we have to have oversight over interactions people have with children here. We can't (and shouldn't) read your private communications - you're more than welcome to talk to children here, and indeed we encourage people to help out the kids who post here, but we'd like you to do it in a transparent and open way, not privately. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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jamesh
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:45 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:24 pm
Here are the alternative social networks/accounts you can (currently?) declare in your forum profile: Website, ICQ, Yahoo Messenger, AOL, Facebook, Google+, Skype, Twitter, YouTube. Do we really need more?
I don't have any of theese.
and we HAVE consulted lawyers about this.
Does the government give you back this money? Otherwise you have wasted it because of their stupid regulations. Money we could have used to help people in the 3rd world to get started with programming. So they damage they have done and anti social behaviour is even bigger than estimated.
There are many solutions to spam, including disposable email addresses.
So you always keep checking your disposable email addresses over a long time? Do you know that somebody will have a question after a few years to your topic? You still check your disposable email?
Will it? I would wager that most people have never sent or received a PM, and everyone who has (and it was welcome) probably then quickly transitioned to a way to communicate outside the forum.
So if its so seldom used why there should be a danger? Do you forbid knives because sometimes people are killed with them?
If they never ask for a PM, you never should be sending one.
I don't get notifications about my topics, but if someone sends me a PM I get a mail and I'm willing to answer and help.
And this is why laws get enacted to prevent contact between adults and underage children.
So it is now forbidden to talk to children? What image of a FREE society is this???
Imagine there is a really clever 8 year old boy who writes his own programs for Raspberry PI and has a question. Do you want to prevent him from posting here? From learing? Do you really want to stop him just because he is too young in your eyes? With this attitude we'll never find the next Einstein or Mozart!
If I were you I'd stop being quite so angry about this. None of your arguments hold up. This is a safeguarding issue. Simple as. We need to prevent paedophiles (and other undesirables) from privately approaching under age children on our forums. Your posts seem to say we should allow it. I'd suggest you really don't want people to think that.

We are more than happy for people to post publicly, where posts can be vetted.

Knives - banned in schools.
Notifications - you can get notifications for changes to a forum thread.
Stupid regulations - some of the GDPR is stupid. Safeguarding children isn't.
Lawyers - we have inhouse lawyers.
Free society - Not sure where you get that idea - a totally free society is called anarchy. Generally considered to be a bad idea.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
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RDPUser
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:51 pm

This is a welcoming place for kids, but we have to have oversight over interactions people have with children here.
But then why take this possiblity adults away? Why can't you just use this time stealing popup like whatsapp did where you must say that youre over the age of 16. If someone lies then, he has to life with the danger. Every decision has consequences. Thats what children have to learn.
We need to prevent paedophiles (and other undesirables) from privately approaching under age children on our forums.
Its just a matter of education. If these children would be informed about sex and this stuff from their parents they would be able to recognise whats going on.
Like I said, please forbid knives and also screw drivers because they are sometimes misused to kill people.
Lawyers - we have inhouse lawyers.
Which you also pay a lot of money and only require because of stupid people and stupid laws. Personally I trust you and think you want to do good things. So you don't need lawyers to protect you. Firms who want to betray other they need lawerys to do it that way that no one can sue them. But you do good things, you wouldn't need them in a good society.

jdb
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Re: Keep Private Messaging function, please help and post

Mon May 21, 2018 2:57 pm

Locking. The reasons for removing the PM feature have been (re)stated ad nauseum.
Rockets are loud.
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