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Windows 10

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:56 am
by nikrox
Will the windows 10 that comes with the raspberry pi 2 be loaded onto noobs for easy os switching.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:39 am
by ghans
Windows 10 IoT edition for Raspberry Pi 2 is yet to be released by Microsoft. You can only signup to their developer program at this time.

ghans

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:37 am
by DougieLawson
nikrox wrote:Will the windows 10 that comes with the raspberry pi 2 be loaded onto noobs for easy os switching.
Probably not, I've had to sign my soul away in blood to Microsoft to get on their Windows on IoT Devices program.

There probably won't be a GUI, I see it as a server engine not an end-user engine.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:49 am
by PiGraham
DougieLawson wrote:
nikrox wrote:Will the windows 10 that comes with the raspberry pi 2 be loaded onto noobs for easy os switching.
Probably not, I've had to sign my soul away in blood to Microsoft to get on their Windows on IoT Devices program.

There probably won't be a GUI, I see it as a server engine not an end-user engine.
Maybe not. Some info here: http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewt ... 63&t=98419

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:46 am
by nikrox
Oh. Thanks for your help. :D

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:38 am
by fruitoftheloom
Having spent some time trying to work out what Windows 10 is in general, it would appear that it is not really what would be envisaging.

It appears that with M$ trying to use a base NT kernel accross all architectures then any Operating System will be called Windows 10, from a IoT developer release to a full blown full fat Desktop Operating System.

Whilst it is good to see M$ finally bringing multi-arch, IMO they should of given it a different name, maybe Windows X :?:

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:11 am
by PiGraham
fruitoftheloom wrote:Having spent some time trying to work out what Windows 10 is in general, it would appear that it is not really what would be envisaging.

It appears that with M$ trying to use a base NT kernel accross all architectures then any Operating System will be called Windows 10, from a IoT developer release to a full blown full fat Desktop Operating System.

Whilst it is good to see M$ finally bringing multi-arch, IMO they should of given it a different name, maybe Windows X :?:
Could you give the sources for this info? It seems rather difficult to piece together what Win 10 for devices will be. Some inside sources at MS (I posted quotes from a link PeterO posted earlier) have suggested it will be closer to WinRT graphical apps. I haven't seen anything official that specifies no graphics or kernel only.

MS has .NET Gadgeteer which is not graphical and, AFAIK, every other version of Windows supports GUIs, from Embedded / CE to Phone, RT and Metro/Desktop.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:39 am
by fruitoftheloom
PiGraham wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:Having spent some time trying to work out what Windows 10 is in general, it would appear that it is not really what would be envisaging.

It appears that with M$ trying to use a base NT kernel accross all architectures then any Operating System will be called Windows 10, from a IoT developer release to a full blown full fat Desktop Operating System.

Whilst it is good to see M$ finally bringing multi-arch, IMO they should of given it a different name, maybe Windows X :?:
Could you give the sources for this info? It seems rather difficult to piece together what Win 10 for devices will be. Some inside sources at MS (I posted quotes from a link PeterO posted earlier) have suggested it will be closer to WinRT graphical apps. I haven't seen anything official that specifies no graphics or kernel only.

MS has .NET Gadgeteer which is not graphical and, AFAIK, every other version of Windows supports GUIs, from Embedded / CE to Phone, RT and Metro/Desktop.
Hi, I spent several weeks trying to piece together what M$ are actually trying to convey.

All I have been able to surmise is that they want a multi-arch Kernel, call it conjecture maybe.

There are so many blogs on the WWW it is difficult to find a straight answer.

I just feel that we will have to wait and see but people buying RPi 2 to run Windows 10 should be made aware it may not be what they thought.

Therd is not 100% evidence of anything, only M$ knows.....

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:54 am
by rurwin
We will have to find out, probably until April. There's an event then that they are likely to announce stuff in.

My feeling is that if they had intended the RaspPi to be a desktop- or tablet-style experience, they would not have put it under IoT. I think we should get a GUI but it will probably never be something that can be installed by NOOBS and used by general users.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:20 am
by fruitoftheloom
rurwin wrote:We will have to find out, probably until April. There's an event then that they are likely to announce stuff in.

My feeling is that if they had intended the RaspPi to be a desktop- or tablet-style experience, they would not have put it under IoT. I think we should get a GUI but it will probably never be something that can be installed by NOOBS and used by general users.
+1

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:34 am
by drgeoff
I think the issue is that quite a few people who see "Winows 10 will be available on RPi2" immediately think that they will be able to run the same mainstream apps that they run on a Wintel PC.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:18 pm
by richardgrant
drgeoff wrote:I think the issue is that quite a few people who see "Winows 10 will be available on RPi2" immediately think that they will be able to run the same mainstream apps that they run on a Wintel PC.
I agree. When this announcement was made, some wise person in the RPi Blog comments wrote something to the effect of, "I think when people see what Microsoft actually delivers, they'll be surprised by how underwhelming it is."

I suspect the truth may be that Microsoft itself is unclear about its plans for the IoT space. Someone at the company recently told tech reporters that there are *five* separate categories of Windows 10 development underway:

Windows 10 Industry
Windows 10 Mobile
Windows 10 Compact
Windows 10 “Athens"
.NET Micro Framework

There's no clear indication where the Pi falls in this framework. Microsoft revealed nothing about this at its recent Windows 10 event. The company has been rethinking its approach to mobile for the past couple of years, despite the maturity of the phone and tablet markets. Now they seem to be planning some new venture that may embrace wearables, cars, etc. The Pi seems to have its own dedicated team, but we have no way of knowing how much support they have within a company that's famous for running projects, sometimes for years, that never see an actual release. (Remember the Courier tablet?) In any case, they aren't ready to promise even an *announcement* except in vague terms like "the coming months."

A cruel pundit recently remarked, "Microsoft's core competency is vaporware." That may turn out to be prophetic.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:35 pm
by fruitoftheloom
richardgrant wrote:
drgeoff wrote:I think the issue is that quite a few people who see "Winows 10 will be available on RPi2" immediately think that they will be able to run the same mainstream apps that they run on a Wintel PC.
I agree. When this announcement was made, some wise person in the RPi Blog comments wrote something to the effect of, "I think when people see what Microsoft actually delivers, they'll be surprised by how underwhelming it is."

I suspect the truth may be that Microsoft itself is unclear about its plans for the IoT space. Someone at the company recently told tech reporters that there are *five* separate categories of Windows 10 development underway:

Windows 10 Industry
Windows 10 Mobile
Windows 10 Compact
Windows 10 “Athens"
.NET Micro Framework

There's no clear indication where the Pi falls in this framework. Microsoft revealed nothing about this at its recent Windows 10 event. The company has been rethinking its approach to mobile for the past couple of years, despite the maturity of the phone and tablet markets. Now they seem to be planning some new venture that may embrace wearables, cars, etc. The Pi seems to have its own dedicated team, but we have no way of knowing how much support they have within a company that's famous for running projects, sometimes for years, that never see an actual release. (Remember the Courier tablet?) In any case, they aren't ready to promise even an *announcement* except in vague terms like "the coming months."

A cruel pundit recently remarked, "Microsoft's core competency is vaporware." That may turn out to be prophetic.
Most of what I have found talk about the RPi and Intel Galileo being ARM and x86, respectively, development platforms for IoT

http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/e ... board.html

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:24 pm
by simpex
Likely, Windows 10 IoT for Raspberry Pi 2 will be quite similar to Windows Phone 8.1 that runs on Nokia smartphones

Definitely Windows 10 IoT for Raspberry Pi 2 will not be a full PC Windows version.
I have found a link that states: "Windows on Galileo is derived from Windows Phone 8.1." (see: http://ms-iot.github.io/content/Forwarders.htm ).
Intel Galileo is an equivalent of Raspberry Pi 2 (see: http://www.techradar.com/news/computing ... rd-1186523 ), so Microsoft will most likely adapt the same OS to both development boards and others either existent or to come in the near future.
Image<=>Image
Probable, most applications that can run on Windows Phones will also be able to work on Raspberry Pi 2.
Instead of "Windows 10 Internet of Things" a more suitable name would be "Windows of EveryThing" meaning that this new OS can be tailored to run on all kind of boards.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:34 pm
by fruitoftheloom
""Windows on Galileo is derived from Windows Phone 8.1"

Galileo is an x86 SoC, Windows Phone is for ARMv7 SoC

It feel it is better to say based on a Kernel rather than an Operating System, jmo :D

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:01 pm
by simpex
"Windows on Galileo is derived from Windows Phone 8.1. This mobile edition of Windows uses the Windows 8.1 API Set."
Source: http://ms-iot.github.io/content/Forwarders.htm

"Win32 API

The version of Windows for the Intel Galileo is based on a MinCore of Windows. It is designed to run in a smaller memory and storage footprint. Because of this, much of the Win32 API is not available for applications which target the Desktop version of Windows.

Win32 is a vast API, consisting of hundreds of thousands of application programming interfaces, spanning many technology stacks and language bindings. As the API set grew in size over the generations, it also grew in complexity and interconnectedness.

Over the last few releases of Windows, the Win32 API has been refactored to enable smaller versions of Windows to run on new form factors. As the API set was refactored, many APIs were included in the smaller versions of Windows, while many more APIs added to the larger versions of Windows. The desktop version Windows contains the whole API set.

If you want to run an application targeted for Desktop on a smaller device - like the Galileo, the APIs it needs from the operating system have to be made available - or the app won’t run.

To make them available, there are a few options:

If you have access to the sources for the app you’d like to run, link against MinCore.lib instead of the default set of libraries for Desktop applications.
If the API is in Windows, but has moved, implement a Forwarder from the traditional API exposure to the new one.
If the API is missing, implement a stub which emulates the API as best as possible.

API Sets
Windows on Galileo is derived from Windows Phone 8.1. This mobile edition of Windows uses the Windows 8.1 API Set.
"

It appears, from the text, that any application, requiring the full version of Windows to run, could also be able to work on Intel Galileo (and likely Raspberry Pi 2) by doing some tricks.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:34 pm
by ghans
"Some tricks" amounting to forcing every Windows software dev to recompile his app for the Pi , hoping he isn't a "corner case" :roll: affected by
the difference between MinCore and the full Win32 API availble on e.g. Windows 7 Professional.

ghans

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:38 pm
by PiGraham
Eben Upton wrote:What we’re talking about here is Windows 10 for IoT [Internet of Things]; there hasn’t been a statement about capabilities,” Upton explains. “We’re not necessarily talking about PowerPoint or the Windows desktop. Microsoft will make a statement on what exact capabilities they plan to bring to the device fairly soon.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:44 pm
by Joe Schmoe
Keep in mind that even if we were talking about a full desktop version of Windows (which we're most definitely not), it wouldn't run your existing apps (because they are all compiled for x86). So, it really is (putting it charitably) "untrue" to say that Windows runs on the Pi (unless you've adapted the Newspeak definition of the word "Windows" - that is, to mean, any OS marketed by Microsoft is, by definition, "Windows").

The problem is that it has hit the airwaves that the newest Pi can run Windows, and we are going to be spending the rest of our time on this board shooting that down.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:10 pm
by simpex
If the Windows programmer for Raspberry Pi 2 stays within that MinCore, he will be able to develop applications similar to those running on devices powered by Windows Phone 8.1.

Probable all applications already written for Nokia smartphones, like games, Word, Excel, Internet Explorer mobile version (see: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-ca/store) will also be able to work on Raspberry Pi 2.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:18 pm
by fruitoftheloom
simpex wrote:If the Windows programmer for Raspberry Pi 2 stays within that MinCore, he will be able to develop applications similar to those running on devices powered by Windows Phone 8.1.

Probable all applications already written for Nokia smartphones, like games, Word, Excel, Internet Explorer mobile version (see: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-ca/store) will also be able to work on Raspberry Pi 2.
The Windows 10 for Phone Kernel has been updated so is not the same as W8.1 for Phone Kernel, M$ have stated somewhere that not all W8.1 for Phones Phones will be upgradeable.

It has als been stated somewhere that Windows RT (ARM) will not be updatable to a newer NT Kernel

So we will just have to wait and see what M$ is offering and how usable it can be outside using as a development Platform :D :D

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:20 pm
by RobHenry
fruitoftheloom wrote: Hi, I spent several weeks trying to piece together what M$ are actually trying to convey.

All I have been able to surmise is that they want a multi-arch Kernel, call it conjecture maybe.

There are so many blogs on the WWW it is difficult to find a straight answer.

I just feel that we will have to wait and see but people buying RPi 2 to run Windows 10 should be made aware it may not be what they thought.

Therd is not 100% evidence of anything, only M$ knows.....
You spent several weeks trying to piece together something that got announced a few days ago?

Also, why do you write M$ for Microsoft? Please desist, it is annoying and unfair.

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:28 pm
by fruitoftheloom
RobHenry wrote:You spent several weeks trying to piece together something that got announced a few days ago?

Also, why do you write M$ for Microsoft? Please desist, it is annoying and unfair.
Regards the first, though the M$ RPi announcement was only a few days ago, there has been much conjecture over Windows 10 and mult-arch Kernel and if it had not been the RPF it would of been another Orginization involved in IoT development.

Regards the second, you are not a Moderator so desist from telling me what I can and can not write :!:

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:42 pm
by RobHenry
I haven't seen the conjecture about Windows 10 multi-arch in recent weeks. Could you share a few links please? If it hadn't been the RPF then who would it of have been?

Re: Windows 10

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:27 pm
by jamesh
Please don't use M$.

:shock: