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rpdom
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:59 pm

stderr wrote:Regarding the PXE boot, did anyone claim that is how it worked? It could boot from the network but use some other mechanism, one that required external to the firmerware support code. Now you're arguing that it isn't even looking so that's interesting if true. Does the pi3 have any onboard "ROM", say part of the firmerware, that could be actually updated? Perhaps there's some change in that area.
tftp has been mentioned by those in the know.

There is a small boot ROM area in the SoC. That's where the new code has been placed.

Whether it works with the LAN9514 wired ethernet, or on-board wifi or both is something we will have to wait and see.

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0xFF
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:23 pm

rpdom wrote:Whether it works with the LAN9514 wired ethernet, or on-board wifi or both is something we will have to wait and see.
Boot over on-board wifi - it would be surprising... but with HAT EEPROM (to store ssid/passkey) seems to be possible ;-)

hippy
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:31 pm

Just thinking out loud - Has anyone actually confirmed USB and PXE booting it will be entirely cardless booting ?

I know that's been the speculation and the normal semantics would suggest that but it may not necessarily be so.

gregeric
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:31 pm

Bootrom's grown by about 12KB on the 2837 vs the 2835/6. There are strings in there referring to the new stuff eg "PXEClient:Arch:00000:UNDI:002001".

stderr
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:37 pm

rpdom wrote:There is a small boot ROM area in the SoC. That's where the new code has been placed.
Obviously something is needed to start things off, but is this updatable?


latinhawk
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:46 pm

I think it's about time for the foundation to clearly state the steps needed to make this happen and what is the precise timetable to get it done. All this speculation is getting us nowhere.

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rpdom
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:57 pm

latinhawk wrote:I think it's about time for the foundation to clearly state the steps needed to make this happen and what is the precise timetable to get it done. All this speculation is getting us nowhere.
Details will be provided when they are ready. Be patient. There are still a few odd issues to tidy up from the release of the Pi 3 and they take priority over this use case.

gregeric
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:05 pm

latinhawk wrote:I think it's about time for the foundation to clearly state the steps needed to make this happen and what is the precise timetable to get it done. All this speculation is getting us nowhere.
No need to speculate, we can investigate instead while we are waiting. So, unsuccessful USB boot, next thing to try is squirting the blinker code over TFTP

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0xFF
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:12 pm

hippy wrote:Just thinking out loud - Has anyone actually confirmed USB and PXE booting it will be entirely cardless booting ?

I know that's been the speculation and the normal semantics would suggest that but it may not necessarily be so.
I didn't find any confirmation by end users yet, but I believe what states the foundation;-)
Obviously USB/PXE boot needs some firmware updates, but for first stage it is handled by hardware (GPU ROM).
So, lets wait I see what is the magic trick to activate it.
I bet on GPIO pulling.

hippy
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:42 pm

0xFF wrote:I bet on GPIO pulling.
It might be worth tracing the non-fitted resistor pull-ups/pull-downs on the PCB. I don't have an actual 3B but there seem to be a few in the photos I have seen.

jdb
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:03 pm

latinhawk wrote:I think it's about time for the foundation to clearly state the steps needed to make this happen and what is the precise timetable to get it done. All this speculation is getting us nowhere.
Why do we owe you this information?
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

asandford
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:20 pm

jdb wrote:
Why do we owe you this information?
It's an advertised feature that doesn't appear to be available, were there adequate disclaimers made that not all features would be available at launch?

latinhawk
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:33 pm

When an entity makes claims about a product that it's launching then either it should work as advertised or explain what and when will make it work as advertised. Anything less is deceitful advetising.

asandford
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Re: Can anyone tell me?

Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:03 pm

stderr wrote: And releasing before the software can do what marketing is already marketing, since we'll just fix with an update, is so common that I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed. It's nothing worth getting angry about, it just is what it is.
No, that's called miss-selling, and can get you a visit by Trading Standards in the UK

stderr
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Re: Can anyone tell me?

Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:21 pm

asandford wrote:
stderr wrote: And releasing before the software can do what marketing is already marketing, since we'll just fix with an update, is so common that I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed. It's nothing worth getting angry about, it just is what it is.
No, that's called miss-selling, and can get you a visit by Trading Standards in the UK
Do the people of the UK routinely get technology six to nine months later than everyone else? Because the release it now, fix the software on the fly philosophy is common in the tech industry. Now whether someone would risk releasing something that they knew had hardware problems and just hope for a workaround, I don't know, but clearly they do have software workarounds for hardware problems they perhaps only find out about after launch. Nobody seems to be getting in any sort of trouble for this sort of thing.

Now to claim that applies to not having every single possible feature implemented perfectly and ready to go at the launch, that seems ridiculous. If the pi ends up supporting boot from network, this will be huge because it will further reduce the cost for each board. Getting the cost of a board down but not dealing with the costs required to actually make it run isn't really solving the cost problem. So to whatever extent this is a direction that they are going, I applaud it, even if it isn't ready yet.

asandford
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Re: Can anyone tell me?

Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:30 pm

stderr wrote:
asandford wrote:[quote="stderr"

Now to claim that applies to not having every single possible feature implemented perfectly and ready to go at the launch, that seems ridiculous.
No, it's not ridiculous, it's the law. Products can't claim features that don't exist.

stderr
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Re: Can anyone tell me?

Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:55 pm

asandford wrote:
stderr wrote:
asandford wrote:[quote="stderr"

Now to claim that applies to not having every single possible feature implemented perfectly and ready to go at the launch, that seems ridiculous.
No, it's not ridiculous, it's the law. Products can't claim features that don't exist.
So the makers of Ubuntu are constantly in trouble with the authorities because something doesn't work when they release it? I get that you can't sell a flying car that doesn't even try to fly, but I suspect you'd get away with it if just flapped a bit: "No, no, it's not fully in the air, but you see how the springs are a little less sprung? See that? That's what we meant by flying." So there's ways to spin things.

latinhawk
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:14 pm

Ubuntu gives away software. Good or bad is free. Not the same thing here.

stderr
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:18 am

latinhawk wrote:Ubuntu gives away software. Good or bad is free. Not the same thing here.
It's actually starting to work pretty good too, especially when I use LXDE instead of their weird bloated GUI.

In any case, where do you draw the line between incorrectly claiming there's some feature in something for sale and violating some legal burden? Essentially people are calling the latter "Volkswagoning" the customer. Do you think that not having boot from USB ready at launch is the equivalent of turning the air quality of London back to the Dickensian era?

latinhawk
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:29 am

As far as I am concerned having done this it's just hurting the Foundation. I bought it because I want to boot from usb and have that usb be a large drive. Other's may have had other reasons. What irks me is all the press to tell of the capabilities and all the silence when questions are asked about the functionality and timetable.

stderr
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:59 am

latinhawk wrote:What irks me is all the press to tell of the capabilities and all the silence when questions are asked about the functionality and timetable.
You got all that from the interview at this link and ignored the quote below?:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/pi-3-interview/
#
Eben readily admits that not all the capabilities of the new parts are going to be used at launch, however.
#

gkreidl
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:51 am

latinhawk wrote:As far as I am concerned having done this it's just hurting the Foundation. I bought it because I want to boot from usb and have that usb be a large drive. Other's may have had other reasons. What irks me is all the press to tell of the capabilities and all the silence when questions are asked about the functionality and timetable.
This has been possible from the beginning. I'm running all my Pis from an USB HDD. It only takes a small SD card for the firmware and the linux kernel and takes the root FS from USB.
What Eben has said is, that the ability to boot from USB mass storage or from a network has been built into the ROM boot sequence of the SOC. No one said, that the RPi3 is able to do that.
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gregeric
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:20 am

@gkreidl +1, but I'm still not sure whether the boot from USB Mass Storage should read boot as USB Mass Storage. Or maybe both, depending on the state of OTG_sense.

latinhawk
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Re: Can anyone tell me how to boot pi 3 from a usb drive

Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:59 am

Boot from usb is not the same as start from sd card and then go to usb. Bott from usb is directly from usb with an empty usb card slot.

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