User avatar
Jim Manley
Posts: 1600
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: SillyCon Valley, California, and Powell, Wyoming, USA, plus The Universe
Contact: Website

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:32 pm

SN said:


And os each world would be named for the language you must code in for it. Such as:
Pythonia
Fortranox
Pascalon
Basicasia
And errrmmmm C
Take no notice if this not what you had in mind


Sure, why not?
Note that every named star in the International Astronomical Union catalogs that has at least three planets, has a planet named "c", since they are named in order of discovery using ascending lowercase letters of the English language alphabet (i.e., "a", "b", "c", etc.) following the star"s name and catalog number, as in "Gliese 876 c". Moons are named with a second lowercase letter, so, if Gliese 876 c has three moons, the third one detected would be named Gliese 876 cc, so, such moons would be capable of executing an ANSI C compiler by name!
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- W.B. Yeats
In theory, theory & practice are the same - in practice, they aren't!!!

User avatar
Jim Manley
Posts: 1600
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: SillyCon Valley, California, and Powell, Wyoming, USA, plus The Universe
Contact: Website

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:56 am

So, I moseyed on over to The Wikipedia page for game engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....me_engines) and there are no less than 59 free or open-source systems listed that are implemented in everything from C/C++, through Java, Python, and Pascal, to PHP, and everything in-between (I"m sure someone has a FORTRAN version running in their basement! ). As police chief Brody would say, "You"re gonna need a bigger boat." Holy Moly! If we limit ourselves to a Python implementation (only because the Foundation is leaning in that direction), the possibilities drop to five: Blender, Cocos2D, Ignifuga Game Engine, Multiverse Platform, and Panda3D.

The Blender engine appears to be built into the modeler tool, so, I assume it"s just a component that can be run in the background, but, if the entire system has to be run, that may not fit in a Pi"s limited RAM, especially since half the RAM has to be dedicated to the GPU at boot time if it"s going to be used, leaving around 80 MB for user applications and services such as Blender. On my Debian x86 system, Blender is using 118 MB, so, that could knock it out of contention if it needs a similar amount of RAM on the R-Pi. Virtual memory might be workable if only small sections of code really need to be in RAM to keep things running - really wish I had some hardware to run it on ...

Cocos2D and Infugia are 2-D only, so, those are non-starters, and Infugia is only an alpha version, anyway. Multiverse (MIT) appears to meet the desired requirements of Pi-finity! the closest, based solely on the brief features summary on the Wikipedia page and, although they ceased operations in December 2011 due to funding shortfalls, the code and documentation is available while they reorganize financially. Panda3D (Disney) Is 3-D, implemented in C++, has C++ and auto-generated Python interfaces, and can import models from Blender, 3ds Max, or Maya. Evaluation of these will keep me busy for a few days, and then I"ll be looking at links to games/tools that others have provided here and elsewhere.

Early indications are that we should at least be able to run MMORPG clients on the R-Pi with traditional servers doing the heavy lifting running game engines. I may pursue the P2P possibility experiment once we have a stable baseline server-based system running with a reasonable number of users and we have had time to determine how to best use the R-Pi boards, taking into account RAM needs, virtual memory usage/performance (most likely via an external USB hard drive), network loading and performance, etc. This is very much in keeping with the Pi-finity! Prime Directives of leveraging existing code as much as possible, building the system via modules with well-defined APIs, using rapid prototyping to try out new ideas (in parallel where feasible), and documenting everything in the wiki.
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- W.B. Yeats
In theory, theory & practice are the same - in practice, they aren't!!!

scifi
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:39 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:12 am

I was going to suggest maybe vega-strike (http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/) but it looks like it's mostly C++ with some python thrown on top.  It's system requirements are REALLY low though (I think it's wiki page listed something in the 200mhz range for processor).  I don't remember the graphics being too offensive to the eyes when I loaded up their privateer remake a few years back.  So it may be a viable option perhaps?

EDIT:  Well nuts to that...I mis-red the system reqs page.  VIDEO ram reqs was 16mb...actual ram is 512 (with some users reporting 256 would work).


What are the minimum system requirements for Vegastrike?

A:Your computer needs to have OpenGL support (which most do nowadays).



Minimum Requirement

Processor: Pentium I 200Mhz or Apple G3 400Mhz
Video card: 3d card with 16Mb of memory (although it will work without a 3d card too)
Screen color depth: 16bit
RAM: 512 Mb (I use 256 Mb in WinXP without any troubles - smbarbour / same to me in Linux Ubuntu - federoy)
Swap space: ???
HD: ???



mole125
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:01 pm

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:59 am

Don't forget the game engine will need to support OpenGL ES - which probably limits the choices. Though you may be able to port an existing OpenGL based engine to ES?

colincoach
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:26 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:25 am

Wow what a great and fascinating idea this is.

I would definitely be interested in playing this MMORPG on my Pi, can't really contribute anything I'm afraid regarding the initial construction and infrastructure, but once the game concept and ongoing enhancement capabilities have been designed and implemented would certainly look to host a world and build components and gameplay within it!!!!

There are some amazing people with amazing ideas in this community!!

User avatar
Jim Manley
Posts: 1600
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: SillyCon Valley, California, and Powell, Wyoming, USA, plus The Universe
Contact: Website

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:34 am

Yeah, I wasn"t even thinking about how little RAM we"ll have when the GPU is given half of the 256 MBs right off the bat if full GPU capability is going to be used. Then, the nerve of the OS wanting to actually steal ~48 MBs of the remaining 128 MBs to do unimportant things like filesystem tasks, networking, I/O device drivers, user interface services, and, most ironically, virtual memory management!

We will eventually start looking at the OS to see what services might be running that we simply won"t need for the game and we can either just not load them at boot through alternative config.text/start.elf/etc., stop them at game start and restart them at game end, or have a specially-compiled kernel that"s pared down to its skivvies (I"m a long-time fan of Puppy Linux (<80 MBs) and earlier tiny distros, some of which fit on a single 1.2 MB floppy disk, including a web server!).

I cut my 3-D teeth on an Evans & Sutherland Picture System One in 1976, which shared a one cubic meter cabinet filled with one MB of static RAM that cost $1,000,000 (yes, a 64 GB iPad would have cost $64,000,000,000+ in 1976), along with a $200,000 maxed-out DEC PDP-11/70 with 128KBs (yes, _K_Bs!) of magnetic core memory, and a couple of RP-04 ~40 MB removeable disk pack hard drives each the size of a small washing machine. The E&S PS/1 performed 3-D matrix multiplications for real-time scaling, translation, and rotation from the model vertices and edges stored in the 1MB of RAM, then displayed them point-draw on a very accurate and expensive (tens of thousands of dollars) large, short-persistence black & white oscilloscope. My next foray was in 1985 - 86, when I worked on a couple of Silicon Graphics IRIS 2400 $50,000 workstations running the Original Flavor proprietary GL for my MSCS thesis project. I demoed my heterogenous code that could be ported to any graphics-capable workstation/computer and built a 3-D tennis game where you could move the racket up/down/left/right and the tennis ball and rackets could be seen from both ends of the court in their respective perspectives. The Original Flavor GL was probably even less capable than Open GL ES 2.0. The IRIS 2400 could only do about 30,000 Gouraud-shaded polygons/second, while the R-Pi GPU can do ~40,000,000!

Anyway, yes, we"ll have to see what, if anything, the game engines use from Open GL that may not be in ES 2.0.
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- W.B. Yeats
In theory, theory & practice are the same - in practice, they aren't!!!

User avatar
SN
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:06 pm
Location: Romiley, UK
Contact: Website

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:50 am

given the ram shortage would it not be an option to step back to an isometric display paradigm like Populous/Sims/RollercoasterTycoon

Pi's have to be able host the world engine (for external consumers) and the GUI engine (for the local owner) - I just think there is not enough horsepower (or RAM) to go around for a GUI engine any more complex than an isometric view
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

liamfraser280
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:53 pm
Contact: Website

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:09 am

I think it would be interesting to see what kind of memory footprint quake 3 has when running on the device... just as well I brought that up I guess before we all got a bit too ahead of ourselves

Wolfpaw
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:41 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:58 am

This is actually a very interesting idea. I believe that EVE-online run on stackless python if python is the way forward.

I like the idea of PIs acting as shards for a MMORPG - it wouldn't be too expensive to buy several at a time for this purpose.

Is there going to be any sort of project group setup for this, or will it all be conducted in this forum?

User avatar
RaTTuS
Posts: 10487
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:12 am
Location: North West UK

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:10 am

Wolfpaw said:


This is actually a very interesting idea. I believe that EVE-online run on stackless python if python is the way forward.


it does but the server options end is a lot different from the client end
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

User avatar
SN
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:06 pm
Location: Romiley, UK
Contact: Website

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:32 am

This also needs to be able to survive when raspi's are offline - turned off or just running another SD card.  So parts of the 'world' will 'disappear' from time-to-time simply because people will want to use their raspi's for something else.

Someone mentioned DNS before - this is a good idea, as long as the world can be referenced in a hierarchical fashion and that there is a way to hook in virtual geography to it.

So I guess you need to start by generating a virtual "tiling" framework for the world, make some assumptions about "tile" sizes and how many tiles are needed before you go up one level to a "group of tiles" (and if you need to go any further - or just make it flexible) - naming/identification should be easy - I suggest use reverse DNS style - universe.galaxy.star.world... would suffice and have some central location hold a list of all the TLD servers (hold the universe entries)

This should all be of courses centred around Liz/Eben's reality.milkyway.sol.earth.uk.cambridge 'world'
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

yaccin
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:33 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:37 am

I am sorr for not yet reading all the posts so far (i will catch up on that soon) but i just wanted to say that i like the idea. and that it would be great to keep the "game" very simple and have a web-interface controller so you can play it on your tv and controll the game from your smartphone/tablet

i probably could contribute with some graphics and ui/web design stuff :3

DannyG
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:46 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:50 am

Love the idea guys and am happy to help with game logic when things get off the ground.

Perhaps it is worth setting up a project site/forum/wiki somewhere.

DannyG

yaccin
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:33 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:57 am

new idea:

make it a space simulation (because of all the solar system talk) but way easier to control than eve online! the server software could be decentralized in that everyone who wants to can run a linux server app which acts as kind of a hyperspace-gateway to all the connected solar systems. the solar systems run on the RPi"s and "register" at any hyperspace gateway they want.

and for the learning effect:

you basically have to program the board computer of your spaceship yourself (in an easy-way that gets a bit more difficult with each ship upgrade)


mightymik
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:07 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:16 pm

SN said:


A raspi version of Second Life... Pi Life perhaps


I believe OpenGrid is the open source version of SL. And yes i'd like to see a version running on RaspPi. cause ethernet port.

mightymik
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:07 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:27 pm

SN said:


So I"m still seeing this as a Second Life type experience. So you have two immediate challenges you need to crack as part of building a framework upon which everthing else is built on: data structure (definition and lifetime) and rendering engine. Is there Open solutions available in Linux that can be leveraged for these?
And can I suggest that "fighting" interations be explicitly excluded from this. Theree is no need for these and I would like to think we could "rise above" the need for this. Think "The Sims". Not Doom or Quake. Please?


OpenSimulator.org is a place to look. I know there is an open version of SL, but i don't know much about it. SL does have going for it the fact the you can build new 3D content IN WORLD. you live inside a 3D content creating engine.

IzitTech
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:30 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:37 pm

One the main contributors to the R Pi project is David Braben who wrote the Elite series of games.  He has been considering an Elite MMORPG for a while but for various reasons hasn't been able to start.  An Elite MMORPG would be an excellent idea for the R Pi.

mightymik
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:07 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:47 pm

OpenSim is the software, Open Grid is a protocol... and there's a LINUX version out there. There is a LINUX viewer as well. all you have to do is get it to run on the Pi.

mightymik said:


SN said:


So I"m still seeing this as a Second Life type experience. So you have two immediate challenges you need to crack as part of building a framework upon which everthing else is built on: data structure (definition and lifetime) and rendering engine. Is there Open solutions available in Linux that can be leveraged for these?
And can I suggest that "fighting" interations be explicitly excluded from this. Theree is no need for these and I would like to think we could "rise above" the need for this. Think "The Sims". Not Doom or Quake. Please?


OpenSimulator.org is a place to look. I know there is an open version of SL, but i don't know much about it. SL does have going for it the fact the you can build new 3D content IN WORLD. you live inside a 3D content creating engine.


yaccin
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:33 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:11 pm

SL also generally performes rather badly. i.e. uses a LOT of ram and cpu/gpu.

and another factor: bandwith. SL uses a lot of bandwith since (almost) everything you see is user generated and has to be downloaded to your machine. educational institutes (besides most universitys) usually don"t have a very good internet connection (at least in germany. many schools dont have a public internet connection at all!)

NegentropicMan
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:29 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:42 pm

Has anyone of you ever played Noctis IV (deep link, Main Site here, Wikipedia)? I like the idea of a seemingly endless, explorable (and simple… ok, the controls in Noctis are confising…) Space Sim.

My arguments here are:

- The world is generated procedurally (as in elite), so it is not necessary for "the world" or "tiles" to be stored anywhere

- There is enough room for everyone to name "his own" solar systems, planets and so one. Even with excessive naming it would be no problem to either store the name database at some central server or to sync it across clients, as it can be text-only and only diffs can be sync'ed

- It would have the advantage of an "endless" universe, so there will be things to discover, even if players have played it for years

- Players could communicate via "hyperspace" (global chat) or "traditional radio" (star system wide chat)

- Maybe some sort of minerable ores? Trading?

OK, the arguments are not only for a space sim, but I like space sims

edit: inserted Wikipedia link

PiOfCube
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:09 am
Contact: Website

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:47 pm

yaccin said:


SL also generally performes rather badly. i.e. uses a LOT of ram and cpu/gpu.

and another factor: bandwith. SL uses a lot of bandwith since (almost) everything you see is user generated and has to be downloaded to your machine. educational institutes (besides most universitys) usually don"t have a very good internet connection (at least in germany. many schools dont have a public internet connection at all!)


This is where a repository system such as the one we are working on will work very well in situations like this. You could setup a plain ftp server on the LAN which is a mirror of the main repo and the clients can use that instead of going through the internet. There would be no reason to use WiFi to do this if there isn't drop cables available.

We would prefer people that wish to make mirrors to use the torrent downloads instead of using a lot of bandwidth on our repository server.

I hope to get the specs of the repository finalised over the next few weeks so we can concentrate on adding content.

We do have an IRC channel on freenode.net #OIP if anyone wants to drop by
- 1BillionHex aka PiOfCube: 68719476738 -

moldovan_catalin
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:36 pm

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:57 pm

As a suggestion, for the 3d engine, I would go with one of the best known 3d engines like Ogre3D  that already has a working OpenGL ES backend that can be easily ported to R Pi. Another alternative could be Horde3D is lighter and smaller (code wise) than Ogre3D but very capable also. It will require porting to OpenGL ES.

My personal choice would be Horde3d, it's light but very capable.

An interesting idea would be to use QtQuick3D for making the game graphic engine. As far as I know there is already a port of Qt5 working quite well on R Pi (from the videos posted in the blog). Making the engine using QML and QtQuick3d would be easier for programming beginners to jump into the equation. I don't know though how a big QtQuick3d project will fare on a rather constrained device.

Almost forgot, a big decision factor would the tools that come with the engine or the capabilities of the engine to export/import different asset formats. We're talking here about programming but there are also a lot of people that would like to get involved but don't like programming, instead they are interested in game art, game concepts,  modeling, animation and so on.

yaccin
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:33 am

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:12 pm

i vote in favor to anything qt related

the repository thingy is a good solution

there is an "open source" mmorpg called planeshift (www.planeshift.it - the artwork, music and story/setting are not open though). i am not sure which engine they use (it is a "ready made" open source 3D mmo engine iirc, maybe irrlicht?) that - in my memory - also performed rather bad. it had horrible graphics and even on a pretty decent machine used all the cpu it could get and often was quite slow.

for graphics i would suggest something like World of Warcraft. it is not too heavy on the gpu but still looks rather good after all these years.

oh and then there is order & chaos online, which is a (nonfree/non open) mmorpg for iOS, which means it uses open GL ES too, right?

it looks nearly as good as WoW

Rivalo
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:42 pm

Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:56 pm

I'm not that good at coding but I love the idea. Unfortunately I don't have a RasPi.

But I still can contribute something. I'd like to make the sounds and the soundtrack.

Just one thing: If you want to succeed you need to organize this. Get a website or something. And just let people register and just select people.

Get some idea's on what MMO we are going to make. Sci-fi, Fantasy, Medieval?

And just boring WoW style or something total different(It's a community project, loads of people who are really good at programming, why not?)

Return to “Gaming”