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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20 BUG

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:26 pm

spl23 wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:16 pm
PeterO wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:51 pm
I expect I said so at the time, but this is very short sighted ! And even more so now that the PI4 is capable of running more things at once and is being positioned as a PC replacement, then the lack of multiple desktops looks an even poorer decision.
In your opinion; one with which, based on 25-odd years of user interface design experience, I happen to strongly disagree...

With Pi 4, if you want multiple desktops, you can do it the sensible way - by having multiple monitors.
Two is a very small value of multiple !
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FTrevorGowen
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20 BUG

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:20 pm

PeterO wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:25 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:04 pm
TBH, you might be the only person I know who uses multiple desktops. I always find them very clunky.
I'm amazed. I can't do without them. Here's my current desktop ... Three monitors and Four desktops.
desktop.png

Not providing a useful feature simply because of some UI design dogma seems counter to the aims of the PI.

PeterO
(Historically) I'm also a user of multiple desktops (2 or 3) usually (currently) on my Debian-based Brix m/c (Desktop 1 being the Brix, and 2 or 3 being where I'm connected to via PuTTY or VNC to one or more Pi's. Whilst I can switch between VGA/HDMI on the TV/Monitor and a USB KM switch between the Brix and a Pi (usually the P3B+ these days) that's not always convenient. In my R&D days I sat at a workstation (UNIX and then a PC) on which I did all the "mundane" things but all the real work was on remotely networked, more powerful UNIX boxes or, prior to my retirement, a Linux Cluster which might need just a "pop-up" on the current desktop or (because of multiple pop-ups from de-bugging tools etc.) a separate desktop. Of course most of this was prior to the current flat-screen display technology ( ;) ) but "old habits die hard". IIRC, the capability did not die within "Wheezy" but (probably) Jessie with Pixel. I've assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the capability had been "disabled" by default, but could be re-instated (by the user) if required.
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, B2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, A+ and a B2) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

loadbang
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Code: Select all

# hostnamectl
   Static hostname: daedalus
         Icon name: computer
        Machine ID: 2b6d3561a62f494090324f08d46df348
           Boot ID: 564044b96c1140dbae46c6f8b5b857c7
  Operating System: Raspbian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)
            Kernel: Linux 4.19.50-v7+
      Architecture: arm
I'm back. A few issues, IPtables being one of them. Going to roll back the btrfs snapshot to before the dist-upgrade.

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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20 BUG

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:28 pm

FTrevorGowen wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:20 pm
I've assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the capability had been "disabled" by default, but could be re-instated (by the user) if required.
Trev.
More "hidden" than disabled. obconf is needed to set the number of desktops, and the desktop pager just needs to be added from the panel applets list.

But at some point in the past Pi modifications had broken obconf so it was impossible to get it working. That was fixed but the fixes haven't made their way into the version shipping with Buster. I eventually just copied the version from an uptodate Pi3B+ and enabled paging with that.

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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20 BUG

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:34 am

PeterO wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:25 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:04 pm
TBH, you might be the only person I know who uses multiple desktops. I always find them very clunky.
I'm amazed. I can't do without them. Here's my current desktop ... Three monitors and Four desktops.
desktop.png

Not providing a useful feature simply because of some UI design dogma seems counter to the aims of the PI.

PeterO
You do realise, just from that screenshot, how untypical a user you are?

The fact is that only a tiny fraction of users use multiple desktops - on Pi, as on other systems like Spaces on MacOS. Some people , like you, find them very useful, but that doesn't mean they are useful for everyone. Most people simply don't want them.

It's not UI design "dogma" - it's focussing on making the features that are used by the majority of users as accessible as possible, and removing the cruft that is only of interest to a minority which otherwise clutters the system for everyone else. If you want multiple desktops, go ahead and set them up - I'm not stopping you; all the components are still present in the system. But if you think that a taskbar that looks like yours would make Pi easier to use for the majority of users, then I have to say I think you could not be more wrong...

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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20 BUG

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:02 am

spl23 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:34 am
PeterO wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:25 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:04 pm
TBH, you might be the only person I know who uses multiple desktops. I always find them very clunky.
I'm amazed. I can't do without them. Here's my current desktop ... Three monitors and Four desktops.
desktop.png

Not providing a useful feature simply because of some UI design dogma seems counter to the aims of the PI.

PeterO
You do realise, just from that screenshot, how untypical a user you are?
That depends on your normal environment. In the development environment I used to work in that was a common scenario, multi headed machines with multiple desktops. To see a single desktop was unusual.


The fact is that only a tiny fraction of users use multiple desktops - on Pi, as on other systems like Spaces on MacOS. Some people , like you, find them very useful, but that doesn't mean they are useful for everyone. Most people simply don't want them.
So they don't use them ! But your desire to stifle diversity and enforce conformity is disappointing :-(
It's not UI design "dogma" - it's focussing on making the features that are used by the majority of users as accessible as possible, and removing the cruft that is only of interest to a minority which otherwise clutters the system for everyone else.
How does something that's not even visible until you enable it "cluttering up the system" ?

If you want multiple desktops, go ahead and set them up - I'm not stopping you; all the components are still present in the system. But if you think that a taskbar that looks like yours would make Pi easier to use for the majority of users, then I have to say I think you could not be more wrong...
What I find annoying me is that you say things like "we removed multiple desk top support" when in fact you haven't (It still works) which seems to be trying to deny people the choice of using them.

Anyway . I've had my gripe, I've got it working, so I'm happy now.

PeterO
Last edited by PeterO on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ralphrmartin
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:47 am

Pi 4 arrived today. Unplugged Pi 3 having upgraded it to buster, swapped over disks, added a few cable converters, and it fired up fine first time, running my website! Excellent!

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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20 BUG

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:53 am

spl23 wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:23 pm
Sorry - yes, an updated package from stretch didn't make it to buster - should be fixed in apt within the next hour or so.
This seems to have got lost !
PeterO
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Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:42 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:06 pm
bubu_pl wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:48 pm
when will raspbian be 64 bits?
Raspbian Is 32-BIT so its compatible with previous PI's.

If you MUST have a 64-bit OS (although its slower, and uses more memory) use another OS, there are several that support 64-bit
I have had reasonably good experience with 'Windows 10 (WoA)-1803' on Raspberry Pi3B and that is a 64 bit OS. Now I am on Raspberry pi 4 (4GB RAM) and would like to use that 64 bit OS.
Hope resources will soon be available to realise that.

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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:56 pm

geev03 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:42 pm
mahjongg wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:06 pm
bubu_pl wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:48 pm
when will raspbian be 64 bits?
Raspbian Is 32-BIT so its compatible with previous PI's.

If you MUST have a 64-bit OS (although its slower, and uses more memory) use another OS, there are several that support 64-bit
I have had reasonably good experience with 'Windows 10 (WoA)-1803' on Raspberry Pi3B and that is a 64 bit OS. Now I am on Raspberry pi 4 (4GB RAM) and would like to use that 64 bit OS.
Hope resources will soon be available to realise that.
You need to talk to Microsoft, Windows is their baby, so they are responsible for getting it working on the Pi4.
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mpsnet
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:05 pm

I have downloaded latest updated "2019-06-20-raspbian-buster-full.zip" file. After flashing to sd card, I inserted it to my Raspberry pi 3B+. But it is not booting. Two LEDs (green & red) are on in fixed state.
The card is perfect, if you save the previous version, it works normally

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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:15 pm

mpsnet wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:05 pm
I have downloaded latest updated "2019-06-20-raspbian-buster-full.zip" file. After flashing to sd card, I inserted it to my Raspberry pi 3B+. But it is not booting. Two LEDs (green & red) are on in fixed state.
The card is perfect, if you save the previous version, it works normally
So no flashing of the LED's at all?

Maybe a bad download, try redownloading and reflashing the card.
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bulldozer
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:06 pm
bubu_pl wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:48 pm
when will raspbian be 64 bits?
Raspbian Is 32-BIT so its compatible with previous PI's.

If you MUST have a 64-bit OS (although its slower, and uses more memory) use another OS, there are several that support 64-bit
Unfortunately, the older pi's will not start with the new OS. When the OS starts it starts to loop ( I tried two pi's both 3B)

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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 pm

bulldozer wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 pm
mahjongg wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:06 pm
bubu_pl wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:48 pm
when will raspbian be 64 bits?
Raspbian Is 32-BIT so its compatible with previous PI's.

If you MUST have a 64-bit OS (although its slower, and uses more memory) use another OS, there are several that support 64-bit
Unfortunately, the older pi's will not start with the new OS. When the OS starts it starts to loop ( I tried two pi's both 3B)
Hmm, works fine in our testing on all models. Is this a upgrade to the SD card from Stretch, or new installs? We do not recommend upgrades as they can be unreliable.
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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20 BUG

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:33 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:53 am
spl23 wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:23 pm
Sorry - yes, an updated package from stretch didn't make it to buster - should be fixed in apt within the next hour or so.
This seems to have got lost !
PeterO
It has now appeared :-) Thanks.
PeterO
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Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

bulldozer
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:24 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 pm
bulldozer wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 pm
mahjongg wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:06 pm

Raspbian Is 32-BIT so its compatible with previous PI's.

If you MUST have a 64-bit OS (although its slower, and uses more memory) use another OS, there are several that support 64-bit
Unfortunately, the older pi's will not start with the new OS. When the OS starts it starts to loop ( I tried two pi's both 3B)
Hmm, works fine in our testing on all models. Is this a upgrade to the SD card from Stretch, or new installs? We do not recommend upgrades as they can be unreliable.
No, I downloaded the image and put it the pi. An old version ( 2019-04-08-raspbian-stretch ) works perfectly. I'm now trying your earlier advice to re-download the image and see if that works.

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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:38 pm

bulldozer wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 pm
Unfortunately, the older pi's will not start with the new OS. When the OS starts it starts to loop ( I tried two pi's both 3B)
I've spent almost as much time testing the image on a 3B as I have on a 4 - it definitely works on earlier Pis! As James suggested, it's probably a bad download or bad flash to your SD card.

bulldozer
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:54 pm

spl23 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:38 pm
bulldozer wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 pm
Unfortunately, the older pi's will not start with the new OS. When the OS starts it starts to loop ( I tried two pi's both 3B)
I've spent almost as much time testing the image on a 3B as I have on a 4 - it definitely works on earlier Pis! As James suggested, it's probably a bad download or bad flash to your SD card.
I downloaded again. This time the zip file directly and it works now perfectly. It indeed looks like a bad download. Thanks for the advice. Problem solved

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impuce
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:00 am

I tried the dist-upgrade, everything installed ok. But on reboot, it would bring me to login then the command line. I would enter startx but I'd get an error stating the Xorg Server closed. I tried deleting .Xauthority but still got the same error. I had to reinstall my previous backup.

Would like to know when it will be possible to do a dist-upgrade from Stretch to Buster for a Pi 3b. I have a webserver set up with a lot of data and I don't want to start all over.
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:57 am

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:43 pm
Ran out of time before getting to look into the torrent issues today. Will take a look tomorrow.
Thanks. All three torrents seem recognized by the tracker now.

itsmedoofer
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:45 am

ralphrmartin wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:37 pm
One quirk I noticed on upgrading - it left php7.0 there, as well as installing php7.3. I had to manually set up apache2 to use php7.3 instead of php7.0, then remove all of the php7.0 stuff.
I found that as well, confused me for a while.

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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:50 am

Finally got connectors sorted out to drive two monitors (with DVI and no HDMI sockets).

Is there some configuration that can stop desktop items appearing on both monitors ?

PeterO

I've found how to remove "Mounted Disks" and "Waste Basket" in the Appearance settings, but files in ~/Desktop are still appearing on both monitors.
TBH I don't normally have anything in ~/Desktop so it's not a major problem.

PeterO
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"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

spl23
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:12 pm

PeterO wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:50 am
Is there some configuration that can stop desktop items appearing on both monitors ?
Not to my knowledge. It's probably theoretically possible to tell PCmanFM to only show the contents of the Desktop folder on one monitor, but it would be a code change, not a config change. I'll put it on the list of things to look into at some point, as I can see why it is annoying...

alnaseh
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:42 pm

one change from stretch, iwconfig is not working anymore in rc.local without sudo

Code: Select all

+ iwconfig wlan0 power off
Error for wireless request "Set Power Management" (8B2C) :
    SET failed on device wlan0 ; Invalid argument.
Edit: it is not working with sudo as well, it is working manually from the command line

Code: Select all

pi@raspberrypi:~ $ more /tmp/rc.local.log
+ hostname -I
+ _IP=192.168.1.29
+ [ 192.168.1.29  ]
+ printf My IP address is %s\n 192.168.1.29
My IP address is 192.168.1.29
+ sudo iwconfig wlan0 power off
Error for wireless request "Set Power Management" (8B2C) :
    SET failed on device wlan0 ; Invalid argument.
pi@raspberrypi:~ $ iwconfig
wlan0     IEEE 802.11  ESSID:"JR1"
          Mode:Managed  Frequency:2.437 GHz  Access Point: F0:9F:C2:D7:A7:A9
          Bit Rate=72.2 Mb/s   Tx-Power=31 dBm
          Retry short limit:7   RTS thr:off   Fragment thr:off
          Power Management:on
          Link Quality=48/70  Signal level=-62 dBm
          Rx invalid nwid:0  Rx invalid crypt:0  Rx invalid frag:0
          Tx excessive retries:5  Invalid misc:0   Missed beacon:0

lo        no wireless extensions.

pi@raspberrypi:~ $ sudo iwconfig wlan0 power off
pi@raspberrypi:~ $


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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian 'Buster' 2019-06-20

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:12 pm

spl23 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:12 pm
PeterO wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:50 am
Is there some configuration that can stop desktop items appearing on both monitors ?
Not to my knowledge. It's probably theoretically possible to tell PCmanFM to only show the contents of the Desktop folder on one monitor, but it would be a code change, not a config change. I'll put it on the list of things to look into at some point, as I can see why it is annoying...
Thanks.

Can we start a "snags" list somewhere ? For example it seems that minimizing a window on the second monitor and then expanding it does not remove the "[ ..... ]" around the window name in the task bar.

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

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