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elkberry
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Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:33 pm

/rant on...

So I guess the first official Raspbian Stretch release is a really bad Python sketch, isn't it?

My first attempt for a headless boot was the same as I did before to bring up a number of Pi 3Bs and 0Ws: flash a fresh Raspbian Stretch image, create empty ssh file and a well-known working wpa_supplicant.conf on the boot partition. Then insert into 3B, boot, wait ... not reachable. It does not attach to my WLAN. Removed the mSD card, checked on my Linux box, all well. So I hooked the 3B Stretch up to my HDMI TV ... and the horror began: no wireless adapter found. What the...? A systemctl status for the wpa supplicant shows inactive? Erm, what? Restart works, but doesn't bring on the Pixel UI seeing any wireless adapters. An ifconfig shows that the interface is there. So this is a 9.0 release?

Second attempt: download image again, to be on the safe side. Flash it. Boot it while the 3B is hooked up to my TV. Now, the WLAN is there, so I can manually configure it. Definitely unusable when I need to create many mSD cards for my 0Ws, as I would need to hook up every image in order to configure it and set hostnames, et cetera. Grrrr.

Next, as I need to deploy my 0Ws and 3Bs as network function devices, my setup need predictable network interface names, such as eth0 and wlan0. MAC-based network names are not going to help, but in fact are one of the dumbest idea I've ever seen. Different system setup? Different names? Additional pluggable USB network card? MAC-based address, good luck to adapt all your system configuration. Following the official documentation here: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Softwa ... faceNames/ I did the "ln -s /dev/null /etc/systemd/network/99-default.link" and rebooted.

Guess what? I got an eth0 but now there isn't a wireless network interface any more. For some reason, the Pi 3B still attaches to my WLAN and is reachable, but both "ifconfig -a" as well as "ip a s" only show lo and eth0, but no wlan0, no wlxxxx, nix, nothing, nada!

Sorry, but Stretch is unusable in that state. How do you think to use this in education, not least the marker markets?

To add insult to injury, I installed a Pimoroni HyperPixel 800x480 Touch LCD, rebooted. Now the Pixel taskbar is gone: it flashes a few times, then disappears.

If this would have been my first contact with the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the Pi, I would have thrown this into a bin, called it a day, and got me some "real embedded system". One can argue, that this is a 1.0 (9.0) release, so it was to be expected. But I never expected a Stretch distribution to be that broken, I'm aghast to put it mildly.

For it's own sake, the Raspberry Foundation would do something good to the public to retract the current Stretch image, and publish instead the download links to the latest Jessie images.
Last edited by elkberry on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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runboy93
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:37 pm

I must agree using USB wifi dongle is made pain in the, you know after Stretch update, hopefully could be fixed in the future (or not?)

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elkberry
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:40 pm

We're talking about even breaking the internal wireless LAN. Now that is something I expect from Windows 10. But not from a Debian distribution. And not from a Raspbian distribution tackling the educational and maker markets. And the official fix breaks the system. Good work!
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elkberry
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:48 pm

So the disappearing taskbar is caused by enabling VNC. See also here, but there's no fix yet: viewtopic.php?p=1199747#p1199747
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jamesh
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:58 am

I think it would be worth noting that the network adapter name thing is nothing to do with us, it come from upstream. So blame the brain-dead people upstream.

Also, I am not sure expecting a conf file from jessie to work unchanged on stretch is sensible, a lot has changed in networking between these versions.

And of course, this is a very big release, we've tested a lot, but some things get through. Give it some time, and things will stabilise.
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Milliways
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:56 am

Predictable Network Interface Names has been coming for over 12 months, so it shouldn't be a surprise. It is, of course, predictable that this change, like any other, will not suit some.

It only took a couple of hours and a bit of web searching to figure out the changes, which I have documented; See https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... 7921#37921

Anyone who installs a new OS release on day one has to expect some teething problems. It is always prudent to install on a new disk, and if you don't want surprises wait a couple of weeks, or until the x.1 release.

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bensimmo
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24 am

No one else sees this.
They release this while James is on holiday, they sit back and chuckle at all the document edits James will need to do when he gets back.
;-)


I've not tried it yet but if we can't just put a random WiFi dongle in and it work from the previous settings, then we're stuffed at school.

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elkberry
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:32 am

Milliways wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:56 am
Predictable Network Interface Names has been coming for over 12 months, so it shouldn't be a surprise. It is, of course, predictable that this change, like any other, will not suit some.

It only took a couple of hours and a bit of web searching to figure out the changes, which I have documented; See https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... 7921#37921

Anyone who installs a new OS release on day one has to expect some teething problems. It is always prudent to install on a new disk, and if you don't want surprises wait a couple of weeks, or until the x.1 release.
I already knew that documents. As I wrote, the official fix using the sysmlink borked my installation so that neither ipconfig nor ip show the wireless interface anymore. If that is predictable, erm, I'm going with unpredictability. Also, I tried to name interfaces using .link files, as documented. However, that does not work either. People only suggest to use udev rules based MAC addresses, which is not helpful either.

So Raspbian had 12 months time to shake this problems out. Sorry, but blaming your users is only driving them away. Well done. I could have understood that you offer both downloads for Jessie and Stretch on the main download page simultaneously. That would have made sense. But instead you drop the bomb and then blame users who download and try only to find out that a lot of things break right out of the box. And now you're insulting me that I should wait for .1 releases. How odd is that?
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:38 am

elkberry wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:32 am
Milliways wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:56 am
Predictable Network Interface Names has been coming for over 12 months, so it shouldn't be a surprise. It is, of course, predictable that this change, like any other, will not suit some.

It only took a couple of hours and a bit of web searching to figure out the changes, which I have documented; See https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... 7921#37921

Anyone who installs a new OS release on day one has to expect some teething problems. It is always prudent to install on a new disk, and if you don't want surprises wait a couple of weeks, or until the x.1 release.
I already knew that documents. As I wrote, the official fix using the sysmlink borked my installation so that neither ipconfig nor ip show the wireless interface anymore. If that is predictable, erm, I'm going with unpredictability. Also, I tried to name interfaces using .link files, as documented. However, that does not work either. People only suggest to use udev rules based MAC addresses, which is not helpful either.

So Raspbian had 12 months time to shake this problems out. Sorry, but blaming your users is only driving them away. Well done. I could have understood that you offer both downloads for Jessie and Stretch on the main download page simultaneously. That would have made sense. But instead you drop the bomb and then blame users who download and try only to find out that a lot of things break right out of the box. And now you're insulting me that I should wait for .1 releases. How odd is that?
Surely it is Debian Developers who implemented these changes in Stretch ?? Raspbian is a fork of Debian ARMHF compiled to run on both ARMv6 & 7....
adieu

Asus CS10 Chromebit / HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer / Raspberry Pi Model 2B v1.1 / RealVNC Software...

Milliways
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:09 am

elkberry wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:32 am
[As I wrote, the official fix using the sysmlink borked my installation so that neither ipconfig nor ip show the wireless interface anymore. If that is predictable, erm, I'm going with unpredictability. Also, I tried to name interfaces using .link files, as documented. However, that does not work either. People only suggest to use udev rules based MAC addresses, which is not helpful either.

So Raspbian had 12 months time to shake this problems out. Sorry, but blaming your users is only driving them away. Well done. I could have understood that you offer both downloads for Jessie and Stretch on the main download page simultaneously. That would have made sense. But instead you drop the bomb and then blame users who download and try only to find out that a lot of things break right out of the box. And now you're insulting me that I should wait for .1 releases. How odd is that?
You seem to be confusing me (an ordinary user, if an experienced engineer, used to systematic solution of problems) with the establishment. My only aim is to assist less experienced users to make the most of their Pi (a truly wonderful product, which brought me back to the excitement of the 1st computer I built 45 years ago).

I don't see how "official fix using the symlink" could be read into any of the documentation, but if you follow the suggestion in my tutorial link, you can either revert to the previous behaviour, or adapt to the new. Both have their places; the new naming enables solution to problems many users experience, the old is simpler for uncomplicated network situations.

jamesh
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:25 am

elkberry wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:32 am
Milliways wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:56 am
Predictable Network Interface Names has been coming for over 12 months, so it shouldn't be a surprise. It is, of course, predictable that this change, like any other, will not suit some.

It only took a couple of hours and a bit of web searching to figure out the changes, which I have documented; See https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... 7921#37921

Anyone who installs a new OS release on day one has to expect some teething problems. It is always prudent to install on a new disk, and if you don't want surprises wait a couple of weeks, or until the x.1 release.
I already knew that documents. As I wrote, the official fix using the sysmlink borked my installation so that neither ipconfig nor ip show the wireless interface anymore. If that is predictable, erm, I'm going with unpredictability. Also, I tried to name interfaces using .link files, as documented. However, that does not work either. People only suggest to use udev rules based MAC addresses, which is not helpful either.

So Raspbian had 12 months time to shake this problems out. Sorry, but blaming your users is only driving them away. Well done. I could have understood that you offer both downloads for Jessie and Stretch on the main download page simultaneously. That would have made sense. But instead you drop the bomb and then blame users who download and try only to find out that a lot of things break right out of the box. And now you're insulting me that I should wait for .1 releases. How odd is that?
We have made no official statements, so not sure what you are referring to. Also, this release is based on Debian, with a few Raspberry specific changes, which do not affect net naming, so this is a Debian issue, not a Raspbian one.

When Debian released Stretch, we did a Raspbian version and started testing, this was just a couple of months ago.
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elkberry
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:49 pm

At least I finally found out why the stock Raspbian Stretch (as Debian and Ubuntu) don't allow (re)naming USB network interfaces to specific names, but instead insist on using MAC48-based names. And this is relevant to the Pi computers, as the Ethernet network interfaces (and the WLAN) are connected to the internal USB.

It turns out that in the stock install, the udev rule for MAC48-based names for USB network devices takes precedence, checking whether /etc/udev/rules.d/80-net-setup-link.rules (note the /etc!) is present. On a stock install, it isn't, but has a stock version in /lib/udev/rules.d/80-net-setup-link.rules. But that doesn''t matter. So all the documentation (including the really well-written one on freedesktop.org) is rendered moot due to this very peculiar rule for USB network adapters. I can only guess that it was written with the limited view of docking stations, which nowadays often have their network ports exposed as USB devices.

To turn off this "feature", you need to create a symbolic link:

Code: Select all

sudo ln -s /lib/udev/rules.d/80-net-setup-link.rules /etc/udev/rules.d/80-net-setup-link.rules

Now naming network interfaces using .link files finally works for USB network interfaces, including the Pi's built-in network devices. Please note that this returns the naming scheme for USB network adapters to the old kernel eth0, eth1, ... scheme for those interfaces not explicitly named in a .link file.

Nota Bene: when using "link-to-dev-null" method as documented by Debian, on the next reboot you'll probably experience a crazy interface chaos, where wlan0 is kind of invisible, albeit working. A few more reboots typically help.
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elkberry
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Re: Stretch...ing my nerves: no headless boot, pixel taskbar gone, network interface woes, lost wirless lan,...

Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:04 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:25 am
We have made no official statements, so not sure what you are referring to. Also, this release is based on Debian, with a few Raspberry specific changes, which do not affect net naming, so this is a Debian issue, not a Raspbian one.

When Debian released Stretch, we did a Raspbian version and started testing, this was just a couple of months ago.
True, the Debian/Freedesktop documentation is not Foundation documentation. But directly linking to it very early in your blog post because it contains important information let it appear to be semi-official.

From Stretch blog post https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspbian-stretch/ take its very first link to the Debian release notes https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/ ... s-new.html, there go to section 2.2.8 "New method for naming network interfaces", then follow the link to "Predictable Network Names" https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Softwa ... faceNames/. Scroll down to the section titled "I don't like this, how do I disable this?" Do what is said in item 1. Reboot.

For whatever reasons and for multiple boots thereafter without changing anything, my wlan interface was completely gone and not listed any more, albeit it was working as I could SSH into the Pi. This is what I call unpredictable behavio(u)r.

And now please take into consideration that there are happy Pi users that use their Pis as network function boxes, such as WLAN-Ethernet bridged, NAT routers, and many, many more examples. One compelling reason for the Pi Foundation is the thrilling community and the sheer amount of recipes for setting up Pis easily as network function boxes, avoiding the need for more expensive and/or complex solutions or products. And now you're throwing Stretch at the masses ... and all these recipes break. Of course, there's a precedent for this: the transition from Wheezy to Jessie. But at least there was quite some documentation for this. But more importantly: the device names didn't break! Now with Stretch, the device names break, and they break in a manner that will be difficult for many less experienced users. So, a lot of recipes out there will break and frustrate your customer base. For what? Each recipe should now read "run ifconfig, and look for a network interface name that begins with either enx or wlx, followed by twelve hex digits". Use that name in each place where this recipe says "eth0" or "wlan0". Great job.
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