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n3tw0rk5
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USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:11 am

I know this has been mentioned pretty much since day 1, but what is the likely hood of ever getting USB 3 support in the near future, so we can use newer hubs?

I really wish I could use my Anker 10 port USB 3.0 hub with the Pi, it would save a lot of hassle with my usb asics.

Hopefully someone will bring out a compute module i/o board with a couple of USB 3 ports on it and not charge the earth for it. :)

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:17 am

n3tw0rk5 wrote:I know this has been mentioned pretty much since day 1, but what is the likely hood of ever getting USB 3 support in the near future, so we can use newer hubs?
We already have USB 3.0 support and always have had. All USB 3.0 devices are supposed to be backward-compatible with USB 2.0. If your hub isn't working with the Pi at present then either it's not truly USB 3.0 or the Pi isn't truly USB 2.0.
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:03 am

There is no USB3.0 HW support planned for the Raspi.
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n3tw0rk5
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:12 am

I mean true USB3 support not relying on backwards compatibility of the devices, I know some of the issue's are at the hub end, ie possibly needing firmware updates etc.

But as a possible future update for the Pi USB 3 port/s would be damn handy :)

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:14 am

n3tw0rk5 wrote:I mean true USB3 support not relying on backwards compatibility of the devices, I know some of the issue's are at the hub end, ie possibly needing firmware updates etc.

But as a possible future update for the Pi USB 3 port/s would be damn handy :)
and would require so much changing on the board you may was well ask for a new SOC ;)
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n3tw0rk5
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:15 am

jamesh wrote:There is no USB3.0 HW support planned for the Raspi.

James if a compute module i/o board had usb3 ports would that work? Or is it still down to the module itself?

IE what I'm trying to say is can the i/o board give the USB 3 support or is it tied down to whats on the module. :)

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:20 am

The SoC only has a USB2.0 port, so that will always be a bottle neck.

You could make an IO board with a USB3.0 hub chip that connected to the USB2.0 port.

But all that means is you can plug in USB3 devices and run them at USB2 speeds.
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:22 am

Ah right, that makes sense, Cheers.
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:36 am

Another thing to throw in as just a thought - IIRC the USB 3.0 licensing prices are a bit higher than the 2.0 license fee. With that in mind I wouldn't expect to see USB 3.0 any time soon in a 'new' Pi if one is considered down the road as it'll likely push the build cost over the budget.

It's a shame something along the lines of thunderbolt doesn't exist with an open license. Something like that (but ARM compatible) would make expandability a non-issue. I guess that's where some of these new Intel NUC boxes with Thunderbolt get their hefty price tag from though!

You know that's actually given me a thought. I know this is not going to happen as it'd be a massive undertaking, but things like the Raspberry Pi, Arduino, Beagle Board, and other small boards could come together to create a new connector that is completely open - no license fees at all. Essentially 'free' Thunderbolt.

Sorry, I got carried away :P

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:15 pm

on the same way I don't think ARM processor is able to feed/(eat data) USB3.0 link at full speed.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:07 pm

totoharibo wrote:on the same way I don't think ARM processor is able to feed/(eat data) USB3.0 link at full speed.
Whilst USB 3.0 ARM isnt common, it does look like it is possible. The Exynos dev kit has USB 3.0 and uses a Dual-Core ARM Cortex chip: http://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/47273-24 ... l-monster/

Too bad it's so pricey.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:48 pm

There are a few SOC with native USB 3.0. There are also a couple with PCIe that could be used to add a USB 3 chip this is how some of the Marvell Kirkwood products have USB 3 ports. Many of them also barely acheave more than USB 2.0 speeds with 3.0 ports due to lack of internal bandwidth. The Exynos does fairly well because it had native USB 3 support built in and was built with it in mind but the rest not so much.

Designing a board with USB 3 also requires 4 extra traces (than 2.0), different sockets. So it isn't some slap on item.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:29 pm

It would be nice if the 3.0 hubs would downgrade properly for the 2.0 USB connections on the pi. Both my 3.0 Anker hubs work great for hard drives and other 2.0 or 3.0 (downgraded) speeds, but don't work properly on the pi for slow speed 1.1 devices such as keyboards and FT232 boards.

My other linux boxes with 2.0 usb ports and 3.0 hubs don't have this problem.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:59 pm

A pi with 3.0 support? We need armv7 first...

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:03 pm

63854 wrote:A pi with 3.0 support? We need armv7 first...
It is not going to happen anytime soon, this Pi should be whatever has been argued to death for 2 years
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:52 am

Theres about a dozen things I'd change on the Pi before USB 3.0. Getting the USB 2.0 working properly would be towards the top of the list.

Yes James, it has improved dramatically since the launch and most USB devices now work without issue. I'd count it as working if everything USB works as well as it does on my Ubuntu PC. ;)

USB3.0 is right up there with Gigabit Ethernet, entirely inappropriate for something with the (lack of) CPU horsepower the Pi is endowed with.
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:15 pm

pluggy wrote:Yes James, it has improved dramatically since the launch and most USB devices now work without issue. I'd count it as working if everything USB works as well as it does on my Ubuntu PC. ;)
I don't think that is possible. The vast majority will work, but there are some use cases that are simply impossible to accommodate due to hardware limitations.

Although, I have a slide scanner that works on a Windows PC, but not an Ubuntu one...so it's not just a Raspi limitation...
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:02 pm

Theres lots of Windows only stuff out there, usually because the manufacturer is scant on details to write drivers for it by the open source community and its rare enough not to bother reverse engineering it.

I'm impressed James, usually when I bring up the Pi's USB you go into fierce over defensive mode. I can live with the issues because there are hardware limitations. Honest answer - good on ya. :)
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:44 am

If we managed to get USB 3.0 on the Raspberry Pi, the next question would be, "where could the data go at that speed?"
Considering that the memory in the Pi is the SD or micro SD card, I did a search for "fastest SD card" and found this one:
"It is the world's fastest SD™ memory card, and is based on the latest high performance SD specification. The new SanDisk Extreme PRO SD UHS-II card offers up to 250MB/s1 write speeds for continuous burst mode shooting and transfer speeds of up to 280MB/s1 for maximum workflow efficiency.Feb 12, 2014"
But on thinking again, I searched for compatible cards for the Pi at this link: http://elinux.org/RPi_SD_cards
Other searches found data like this:
USB 2.0 interface provides up to 60MB/s transfer speed.
Class 10 SD/MicroSD card should give you at least 10MB/s
8GB SanDisk Extreme Pro ($22.99) - 95MB/s <listed as Pi compatible
16GB SanDisk Extreme ($21.95) - 80MB/s. <listed as Pi compatible
THEN... I looked at the USB 3.0 speeds:
"The now-aging USB 2.0 standard can theoretically transfer data at a very high 480 megabits per second (mbps), or 60 megabytes per second (MBps). That's impressive, but not as much as the newer USB 3.0, which can handle up to 5gbps (640MBps)—over ten times as fast as the 2.0 maximum.Jun 26, 2014"
*********
So... what would you gain by having a 640MBps USB 3.0 port if your fastest compatible SD card can only handle data at 95MBps. Very little. Consider also, all the people running with the typical class 10 SD cards might be getting 10MBps while the USB 2.0 is giving them 480MBps, so they are already able to handle USB data faster than the memory card.
Your Anker 10 port USB 3.0 will still work with the Pi's USB 2.0 ports, but it may be like putting police interceptor tires on your old car and hoping they will make it go faster. On the bright side, at least your hub won't be the bottleneck.
Just remember, there is ALWAYS a bottleneck (slowest point) somewhere in the system.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:56 am

First off, I wouldn't want to do anything that would increase the cost of the Pi. But properly supporting a USB 3.0 hub would be rather nice. As time rolls on, good quality USB 2.0 hubs will get harder to find. Some of the hubs such as Anker have multiple switching supplies in them. My issue is the Pi won't recognize keyboards and FT232 devices plugged directly into the 3.0 hub. You need to plug a cheap 2.0 hub into the 3.0 hub and plug the slow speed devices into that. Other linux boxes don't have that problem. I tend to run my Pis with hard drives, even with the USB 2.0 speeds.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:13 pm

markatlnk wrote:First off, I wouldn't want to do anything that would increase the cost of the Pi. But properly supporting a USB 3.0 hub would be rather nice. As time rolls on, good quality USB 2.0 hubs will get harder to find. Some of the hubs such as Anker have multiple switching supplies in them. My issue is the Pi won't recognize keyboards and FT232 devices plugged directly into the 3.0 hub. You need to plug a cheap 2.0 hub into the 3.0 hub and plug the slow speed devices into that. Other linux boxes don't have that problem. I tend to run my Pis with hard drives, even with the USB 2.0 speeds.

Mark
This is a fault of the VIA chipset used in these hubs. Hubs with other silicon vendor chips do not have this issue.
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markatlnk
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:31 pm

I guess I should try a different brand.

Thanks.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:42 pm

Before we had USB 3.0, let's have eMMC first. USB3.0 controller is still costly nowadays.

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Re: USB 3.0 support

Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:46 pm

Allureana wrote:If we managed to get USB 3.0 on the Raspberry Pi, the next question would be, "where could the data go at that speed?"
Considering that the memory in the Pi is the SD or micro SD card, I did a search for "fastest SD card" and found this one:
"It is the world's fastest SD™ memory card, and is based on the latest high performance SD specification. The new SanDisk Extreme PRO SD UHS-II card offers up to 250MB/s1 write speeds for continuous burst mode shooting and transfer speeds of up to 280MB/s1 for maximum workflow efficiency.Feb 12, 2014"
But on thinking again, I searched for compatible cards for the Pi at this link: http://elinux.org/RPi_SD_cards
Other searches found data like this:
USB 2.0 interface provides up to 60MB/s transfer speed.
Class 10 SD/MicroSD card should give you at least 10MB/s
8GB SanDisk Extreme Pro ($22.99) - 95MB/s <listed as Pi compatible
16GB SanDisk Extreme ($21.95) - 80MB/s. <listed as Pi compatible
THEN... I looked at the USB 3.0 speeds:
"The now-aging USB 2.0 standard can theoretically transfer data at a very high 480 megabits per second (mbps), or 60 megabytes per second (MBps). That's impressive, but not as much as the newer USB 3.0, which can handle up to 5gbps (640MBps)—over ten times as fast as the 2.0 maximum.Jun 26, 2014"
*********
So... what would you gain by having a 640MBps USB 3.0 port if your fastest compatible SD card can only handle data at 95MBps. Very little. Consider also, all the people running with the typical class 10 SD cards might be getting 10MBps while the USB 2.0 is giving them 480MBps, so they are already able to handle USB data faster than the memory card.
Your Anker 10 port USB 3.0 will still work with the Pi's USB 2.0 ports, but it may be like putting police interceptor tires on your old car and hoping they will make it go faster. On the bright side, at least your hub won't be the bottleneck.
Just remember, there is ALWAYS a bottleneck (slowest point) somewhere in the system.
Usb 2.0 real performance is near 30mb/second. I'm never faced 40mb/second.
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eriktheitalian
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Re: USB 3.0 support

Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:54 pm

We cant use totaly pi2.

I'm respect Pi2. I'm using this device because i'm love it. I'm respect developers and founders. But i must write.

We are not using pi2's abilities.

Default os is raspbian. Raspbian libraries are compiled for armv6(pi1).
Its quad core but lots of application not compiled/set for quadcore.
We cant use gpu for web browser.

We cant using pi2 :D People thinking for pi3.
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