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johnbeetem
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:35 pm

hippy said:

That set the standard by which the Foundation would be judged and perhaps crafted the petard by which they could later be hung.
Two quibbles:

1.  You are not hung by your own petard, you are hoist with it.

2.  If you are killing someone or yourself by suspending the person by the neck, I'm told the correct term is hanged rather than hung.  There is a big difference between a hanged man and a hung man.

"Trifling matters, and fussy of me, but we all have our little ways." [Eeyore]

nyarlathotep10
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:40 pm

It is funny to see how things slowly turn the way I predicted as profile roelfrenkema before I got blocked for being blatently honnest.

I didn't find out till I felt I had to repsond to this thread and found no entrance. No password recovery nada.

Not that it matters much as everything here is linked to my G+ account and will be read by my +900 followers of whom some part are into education and/or IT.

I think the Foundation has a severe crisis here. My evaluation last time was that some sweet hardware freaks went all the way trying to be something they are not. Obviously the commercial strategy is just bullock and we are served all kind of bull that I can wthout problem (unless they censored their own postings) on this forum.

By now I have second thoughts about this and start believing more in the direction of paranoid control freaks. There is no single excuse they can bring forward to silence critics as they did with me.

I have always behaved myself, never sworn, and at the utmost one can cencor me on being acid. But canceling my account is a dumb thing to do as I will keep an eye on the raspberrypi soap and will report on Google plus.

You can silence us, but we are legion, we are watching you, we do not forget.

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ArborealSeer
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:49 pm

selectany said:


I intended to buy a laptop for my son and teach him for programming, but I read here about RPi -> "… to get kids into programming".

Why should I choose PRi, but not some common laptop or PC?


Honestly, I'd get both. The thing is RPi isn't ever going to compete in the desktop space with windows or even the mac despite the hype on here.

If you really need a *safe* programming environment, you could always use a VirtualBox VM on the laptop to sandbox as it can be rolled back. But really the price-point of RPi is that for many it will be a additional computer/toy not the be all and end all.

The RPi and things its capable of will show theres a whole world outside a standard windows or mac laptop environment.
Pi Status > Farnell, Arrived 24/5- RS, Arrived 1/6

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johnbeetem
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:51 pm

nmcc said:

This scarily sounds like the Foundation have lost control of its objective by placing too much control in the hands of RS & Farnell.
I very much agree with Smartybones' comments.  I would also add that the RS & Farnell brouhaha is only happening because the RasPi objective is occurring far sooner than expected.  RapPi did not imagine that 200K people would immediately want an uncased development board, sold without any software or cables or power supply.

tufty
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:07 pm

John Beetem said:


I would also add that the RS & Farnell brouhaha is only happening because the RasPi objective is occurring far sooner than expected.


In what way?  The hundreds of thousands of people who brought down raspberrypi.org along with Farnell and RS's global servers want a $35 SBC that can be made into a nifty set top box, MAME machine, or low-cost desktop computer. They're not clamouring to get a $35 computer in order to learn Computer Science, nor are they clamouring to get hold of a $35 computer that can be used to teach Computer Science, even less are they clamouring to get hold of a $35 computer in order to make software that can be used to teach Computer Science.

Hundreds of thousands of people (eventually) getting a pi and using it to run prepackaged software does exactly nothing to help the RasPi objective, as far as I see it, and actually does significant amounts of harm to it, if nothing else because it pushes out the eventual "educational launch" way past the start of the next school year.


RapPi did not imagine that 200K people would immediately want an uncased development board, sold without any software or cables or power supply.


I think it had been clear for quite some time that this was exactly the case, and that the foundation weren't going to be able to handle that demand.  Hence bringing in Farnell and RS, who theoretically could.

Simon

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Jongoleur
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:09 pm

nyarlathotep10 said:

...
You can silence us, but we are legion, we are watching you, we do not forget.



You forgot the manic laughter!
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

JonB
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:35 pm

nyarlathotep10 said:

...
You can silence us, but we are legion, we are watching you, we do not forget.


You forgot the manic laughter!

Oh, go on then...

"Mwahahahahahahahhhhhhh....!"

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fos
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:35 pm

Ditto! The team is doing a great job. They are making great strides, even when working with the government entities. That must be a pain.

fos
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johnbeetem
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:25 pm

tufty said:


John Beetem said:


I would also add that the RS & Farnell brouhaha is only happening because the RasPi objective is occurring far sooner than expected.


In what way?  The hundreds of thousands of people who brought down raspberrypi.org along with Farnell and RS's global servers want a $35 SBC that can be made into a nifty set top box, MAME machine, or low-cost desktop computer...

Hundreds of thousands of people (eventually) getting a pi and using it to run prepackaged software does exactly nothing to help the RasPi objective, as far as I see it...


IMO anything that increases the number of RasPis manufactured and sold will help keep the price low, which is a primary objective.  So what if they're using it for media consumption and games?  Maybe they'll get bored with old TV shows and try out some programming.  Or a friend will show them something cool the RasPi can do that they never knew about and it will set off a spark.  If they only have a media/game appliance, that cannot happen.
Plus, the more RasPis sold the greater the incentive for people to develop software for it, whether they are doing it for profit or not.  Sure, a lot of this will be non-educational, but there will likely be programing languages and environments for the RasPi that would not otherwise have been created or ported.

Plus, IMO anything that increases the number of computers running GNU/Linux will help computing in general.

tufty said: ... and actually does significant amounts of harm to it, if nothing else because it pushes out the eventual "educational launch" way past the start of the next school year.
That's a valid point.  However, IMO RasPi will have most of its impact because individual students and teachers will have them and use them on their own for fun, creative things.  Institutions may eventually catch on, but as with most large organizations it'll be a lot slower.  I don't think missing the window for Fall 2012 will have that big an effect -- I think it's much more important that RasPi be mature enough to make a great holiday present by the end of 2012.

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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:44 pm

Tufty I mentioned in a much earlier thread almost exactly what you have said and was called a troll by an admin and at the time of that post there was 125k + OF MAILING LIST and that was growing almost exponentially by the week, as well as the forum members 12k+ wanting 2 to 10 boards each for themselves.

The 200k for each company is at best a worst case scenario since many of them want more than one device each, and there is commercial interest in the device for even more were they may want as much 1k each also.(there was many post in the forums many months ago about interest from companies)

I think the demand issue was painfully apparent, but not really as much attention was given to the issue as was needed.

That at this point is neither here nor there, but the continuous delays for any reason and by whichever organization (as my earlier post was really about) are creating ill will towards the project, and that is the real problem. (and that is regardless of whether the delays are necessary or not)

I would like to see this project be successful regardless of what our personal intentions for the device may be, and as a matter of course further delay may and will come if the history of this continues on the present course.

I do not see a break for the foundation in the near future until the devices are physically available for purchase.

Literally hundreds of thousands of Raspi's are required to fill current demand and as yet the first 10k have not yet shipped.(that could be as much as 1 million plus at this time if there was not a one per customer limit)

The trenches are beginning to be overrun and there is no ammunition to stop the invaders LOL.

"turning on defensive mode and preparing for the Troll comments"
If you are more worried about ,spelling, punctuation or grammar you have probably already missed the point so please just move on.

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Tass
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:01 pm

Lets recap.

Original Foundation plan:


Make 10,000 boards (paid for in person)
Sell 10,000 boards to developer-type people
Order another 10,000 - 15,000 boards
Sell 10,000-15,000 boards
Continue cycle.  If things went well, they'd have 45,000 produced by the end of the year.


As a lot of people have pointed out, the increased scale of the project was obvious at some point.  And you know what - the Foundation saw it.  So - they changed their approach.  And brought in RS and Farnell.  At the last minute.  It hasn't been perfect.  There have been issues.

All things consider, I think that the Foundation are staying on top of things, hanging in there, doing what they can to improve the situation for us, while keeping the eye on their goal - getting an educational release out.  Make no mistake - selling 200,000+ boards to the general public was not and still is not to goal here, and we are being invited along for the ride.  We should not forget our place...

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Golem
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:14 pm

I thought I might check over different tiny marvels while the R-Pi is struggling to make it out of the manufacturers.

CuBox: Now Accepting Pre-Orders

BeagleBone: Now Accepting Pre-Orders

(It does necessarily state that on the distributors’ websites. But as you work your way out to checkout, you’ll find out about the lead time.)

Cstick Cotton Candy: Pre-order now!

TrimSlice: Available. Cheapest model: $213 +shipping, duty & VAT Available

I think I’ll wait for the Raspberry Pi for a bit longer and work on my free CAD evaluation in the meantime to keep me busy.
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:21 pm

I know my place….



Hehehehehehehe.

@golem:

Thats an interesting compilation that puts things in a certain perspective.  The lead times, shipping and taxes are a bit of a bugger, they always seem to be a surprise to some folk……
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error404
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:57 pm

Don't know about the rest, but BeagleBone is in stock at all the major distributors I normally use. Digi-Key has like 1500 of them.

jamodio
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:14 pm

Tass said:


Make no mistake - selling 200,000+ boards to the general public was not and still is not to goal here, and we are being invited along for the ride.  We should not forget our place...


How do you make people think otherwise with all the buzz and hype being generated about it and when the first thing you see on the RPF website is:

"An ARM GNU/Linux box for $25. Take a byte!"



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Tass
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:42 pm

jamodio said:


Tass said:


Make no mistake - selling 200,000+ boards to the general public was not and still is not to goal here, and we are being invited along for the ride.  We should not forget our place...


How do you make people think otherwise with all the buzz and hype being generated about it and when the first thing you see on the RPF website is:

"An ARM GNU/Linux box for $25. Take a byte!"





Well, I suppose it's simple a case of a marketing idea that worked too well

I get your point - the Foundation has done a fair amount of promoting, but my gut feeling (maybe naively) is that they've done this to get enough interest to build up the community to a point where it'll be able to support the educational release (without this the educational release would fail), only to find out that it's done far more.

The tone of a lot of these posts are suggesting that the Foundation have tried to do a commericial release and failed.  I think that's an unfair accusation to lay against them.  They might not be keeping up with the massive demand (they're trying to ramp up, keep up), but as people have pointed out, they're volunteers.

However much we might want escalate this into the project we want it to be (and have been led to believe it might be for whatever reason), that's not going to happen.  If you ready even a little be past the tagline on the front page, it's very clear that this project is about changing the educational landscape of the next generation.  Don't you want to be part of that?

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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:24 am

Sorry Tass I do not agree I believe the RPF was always going to sell the public to finance their project from the start.

If they were not going to sell to the public then the media results would have been different.

I think this whole thing has blossomed out of the RPF's control limits and hence the RS/Farnell arrangement, and not to include that the RPF's goal was never to become a manufacturer of a device.

The device is a means to the end, as there just is not any other affordable device to achieve their goal.

RPF has done a commendable job getting a device designed and creating a demand and now that demand is significant to say the least yet unfulfilled at this point.

Now chapter two is to get this adventure in order and fulfill that demand, and doing so with as little injury as possible till that demand is finally met.
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Tass
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 am

Vindicator said:


Sorry Tass I do not agree I believe the RPF was always going to sell the public to finance their project from the start.


You're right - they were going to sell to the public.  They definitely needed to sell 9,000 boards to fund the next phase, etc.  They hyped up the project, made a big deal of it, annouced it to all the world to try get 9,000 people interested.  Unfortunately several hundred thousand were interested   And this follows up with your next statement - it turned into something much bigger and they needed to bring in the heavyweights.

Now here's my point - just because this explosion of interest happened, that doesn't mean RPF should change their goals.  There might be some argument towards them needing to take some responsibility for creating this situation, etc. (don't agree, but that's what healthy debate it about, right? ), but regardless, they are going to make the educational release their priority.

I've got a slightly different take on chapter 2:  It is to ensure the educational release is on track while trying to do what they can to keep the public delivery on track.  And while there are hundreds of thousands of people out there that won't like this, their needs will be put behind the educational release if push comes to shove.

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Golem
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 am

error404 said:


Don't know about the rest, but BeagleBone is in stock at all the major distributors I normally use. Digi-Key has like 1500 of them.



Thanks! You`re right, it’s my mistake. It`s available depending on the distributor. $89 USD is a pretty good deal and I am considering buying one.

I would edit my post but I am allowed only one edit that I have used already.
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Golem
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 am

Golem said:


BeagleBone: Now Accepting Pre-Orders

(It does necessarily state that on the distributors’ websites. But as you work your way out to checkout, you’ll find out about the lead time.)



My mistake. It`s available depending on the distributor.
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Golem
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 am

Jongoleur said:


I know my place….

Hehehehehehehe.

@golem:

Thats an interesting compilation that puts things in a certain perspective.  The lead times, shipping and taxes are a bit of a bugger, they always seem to be a surprise to some folk……

The video you posted is precious!

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication”
- LDV

jamodio
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 am

Tass said:


If you ready even a little be past the tagline on the front page, it's very clear that this project is about changing the educational landscape of the next generation.  Don't you want to be part of that?


I guess you meant read not ready. Anyway, yes I read ALL the articles and spent many hours browsing the forum and reading related articles for at least the past 10 months before I registered on the forum.

Sure I want to be part of it, but to be frank that is a far fetched concept.

You should read some of the articles that talk about the OLPC, even when Nicholas Negroponte thought about it as a noble cause, reality was quite different.

There is a very good one published in 2009 by ACM, titled "One Laptop Per Child: Vision vs. Reality."

No matter what they do in relation to the Raspi, their noble goal of transforming education will not depend at all from a piece of hardware or open source software. You can read several of the books and articles written by Sir Ken Robinson, and many others, about what is fundamentally wrong with the current educational system. The Raspi or getting more kids to learn programming won't fix it.

While having a vision that guides your direction is a good thing, letting that vision blind you on the short term goals it is not.

Success is measured by concrete results, not by how much effort or good intentions you put on it. Yes, you can argue that RPF, intentionally or not, managed to create a lot of buzz and hype, and put Raspi on the radar screen, but also by doing so it increased several orders of magnitude their exposure.

It is very discouraging to see that trying to provide some opinions, analyze reality from other angle and do constructive criticism, for some folks is perceived as accusations, attacks or whatever you want to call them.

secretreeve
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 am

honestly i think people will give the foundation a break when someone from the foundation does the following 2 things

steps up after swallowing thier pride and explains what the hell is going on and why its taking so long

formally applogises and keeps people up to date.

the thing thats annoying most people isnt the delays, is the poor excuses and 0 communication from anyone thats getting to people. the comms from the distributors dont carry enough information to satisfy the majority of people

so with that the foundation needs to get thier heads put of the sand, take off those ear-muffs and explain whats gone wrong and give more information

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Tass
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 am

@jamodio It looks like I've got some reading ahead of me

I agree with the concepts of what you're saying - if we look at the bigger picture we can't realistically expect the education sector to be revived by a single device, but I think the community behind this project and environment (OS, development environment, tutorials, etc.) is where the strength lies.

I remember reading a post (can't remember which one now) where people were raising concerns that there would be companies out there that would rip off the design & produce a cheaper, faster, product, essentially putting the foundation out of business.  The answer was that this is exactly what they wanted to happen, and if they did things properly the foundation as it stands today won't exist/won't be necessary in 5 years time.

As for the defensiveness of this forum, I see your point.  I've followed a few posts today where I've seen you be on the receiving end of quite defensive responses.  Unfortunately your sensible comments and open, honest debate is easily mistaken for/confused with the increasing ranting of people expecting an off-the-shelf, in stock, ready-for-market product.

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Tass
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:06 am

@secretreeve There was a blog today explaining what exactly the new compliance testing is needed for, why it has to take place, what testing was originally planned and why the current approach has had to change.  Along with that the RPF has confirmed that RS & Farnell have people on site in China and they'll be setting up a call early next week to get an update and feed information back to us.  That's quite reasonable in my eyes.

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