randomvibe
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:12 am

Just want to confirm that if I order the RaspberryPi, will the SD card be loaded with Python and the numerical/scientific libraries Numpy & Scipy? If so, I will order two boards.

I think the R-? decision to choose Python as the primary programming language is absolutely brilliant.  I think R-? has the potential to do to Arduino what Arduino did to Parallax.  I'm sure this is not the intent, but that may be the de-facto outcome.

My main criticism is lack of GPIO, PWM and ADCs.  The leaflabs.com 32-bit Maple board includes 43 GPIOs (of which 15 are PWM outputs), 15 ADCs (12-bit resolution), and other peripherals.  The upcoming 32-bit Arduino "Due" will have similar features.  If the R-? had this kind of capability, even at twice its price, it would end Arduino and Arduino-like boards.  Educators, students, scientists, tinkerers, hobbyists, etc. would benefit.

The Gertboard is disappointing - it's basically an 8-bit PIC microcontroller board. Gert should've used a Maple board or a beta Arduino "Due". Recommendation... try to emulate what LabJack.com has done.  They have designed several DAQ (Data Acquisition) units and a Python library to enable users to process measured data through USB!  No "serial" communication and awkward programming as with the Gertboard.  With LabJacks, measured data is directly accessible with high level Python functions, no awkward serial strings!  Here is their basic unit:  (16 12-bit ADCs, 2 DACs, 2 Timers (for PWM, Quadrature input, etc.) and 4 GPIO):

http://labjack.com/u3

Any future plans for ADCs directly on the RaspberryPi?

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meltwater
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:57 am

The gertboard no longer uses a PIC, that was an early beta...suggest you search and find the gertboard thread for the latest info.  You can design your own extender board if you wish, or use a different one if it does not fit your needs (there are already lots being made).

The Rpi GPIO is down to what the SOC provides...which is down to what Broadcom designed for it to sell for other applications.  The price of the Rpi has been and always will be the key to it's concept...you raise the price and the aims of the foundation are not met (note...do not confuse your needs with theirs).

Any future plans for ADCs directly on the RaspberryPi?

I imagine not...you can add that functionality yourself for $5, if you wanted to.
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:33 am

The default SD image will come with Python - not sure about the libraries you mention, but they will only be a short install away.

Remember the device is to teach programming, not to provide hardware hackers with lots of GPIO, ADC, PICs etc. You may be better off with Arduino if that is the bag you are into.
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rasbeer
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:27 am

randomvibe said:


try to emulate what LabJack.com has done.  They have designed several DAQ (Data Acquisition) units and a Python library to enable users to process measured data through USB!  No "serial" communication and awkward programming as with the Gertboard.  With LabJacks, measured data is directly accessible with high level Python functions, no awkward serial strings!  Here is their basic unit:  (16 12-bit ADCs, 2 DACs, 2 Timers (for PWM, Quadrature input, etc.) and 4 GPIO):

http://labjack.com/u3


There's an Indian ATMega-based device called Exp-EYEs which is similar mentioned in a thread somewhere here. Apparently a new revision is underway that should bring the price to ~$25. (That's in India - the European distributors currently charge around 200% of the Indian price, but perhaps that can also be improved upon...)

Still curious about the OP's question on NumPy & SciPy - does anyone know?

drgeoff
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:05 pm

randomvibe said:


Just want to confirm that if I order the RaspberryPi, will the SD card be loaded with Python and the numerical/scientific libraries Numpy & Scipy?


From the way you've written that sentence it could be inferred that you think that an SD card is included with every RP.  So, just to be clear, it is not.

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:02 pm

JamesH said:

Remember the device is to teach programming, not to provide hardware hackers with lots of GPIO, ADC, PICs etc. You may be better off with Arduino if that is the bag you are into.

If the intent is to teach programming only, why not just do that on your home PC or laptop.  If one has an R-Pi, they must have access to a real computer to make the purchase.  The R-Pi has some very limited GPIO, so obviously the intent is to enable programmers to interact with the outside world.  I think this is an aspect that has made Arduino very popular, and was likely an inspiration to the R-Pi itself.  Not sure how anyone can consider zero ADCs "lots of hardware".  I think asking for at least 8 ADCs would be reasonable, especially for such as powerful board as the R-Pi.  An 8-bit Arduino has eight ADCs - the upcoming 32-bit Due will have 16!

rasbeer -  Thanks for the tip on the ExpEye.  Very promising DAQ at a R-Pi-like price.

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:21 pm

randomvibe said:


JamesH said:


Remember the device is to teach programming, not to provide hardware hackers with lots of GPIO, ADC, PICs etc. You may be better off with Arduino if that is the bag you are into.


If the intent is to teach programming only, why not just do that on your home PC or laptop.  If one has an R-Pi, they must have access to a real computer to make the purchase.  The R-Pi has some very limited GPIO, so obviously the intent is to enable programmers to interact with the outside world.  I think this is an aspect that has made Arduino very popular, and was likely an inspiration to the R-Pi itself.  Not sure how anyone can consider zero ADCs "lots of hardware".  I think asking for at least 8 ADCs would be reasonable, especially for such as powerful board as the R-Pi.  An 8-bit Arduino has eight ADCs - the upcoming 32-bit Due will have 16!

rasbeer -  Thanks for the tip on the ExpEye.  Very promising DAQ at a R-Pi-like price.


a) Because not everyone has a laptop or desktop.

b) Raspi's are much cheaper than desktops or laptops

cb) You don't need a classroom of PC's to buy a classroom of Raspi's.

d) You can afford to break the OS on a Raspi with your action,s school and home PC's not so much!

e) The intent of the Raspi isn't to enable people to interact with the outside world (outside HDMI, keyboard, mouse) - the GPIO's are a bonus, as is the camera I/F.
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:56 pm

randomvibe said:


rasbeer -  Thanks for the tip on the ExpEye.  Very promising DAQ at a R-Pi-like price.


And RasPi lowers the price bar of an overall DAQ package for classroom use. The ExpEYEs developer seems pretty responsive to emails, so perhaps worth discussing your ideas directly with him...

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:32 pm

Prolly worth adding that the SoC used on the Pi has a sum total of /zero/ ADCs, so whining about the lack of them is liable to be fruitless. If you want ADC, use another board, or add something like an LTC2309.

Simon

For scipy you probably want atlas-arm and a bunch of other low-level libs installed, but I can"t see a particular problem

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:38 am


Remember the device is to teach programming, not to provide hardware hackers with lots of GPIO, ADC, PICs etc. You may be better off with Arduino if that is the bag you are into.


wouldn't be a lot cooler if the kids get to learn how to program something that crosses the virtual domain, i.e interact with the physical world.

certainly bunch of printfs to a screen is exciting but making something move or light up probably will spur a lot more creativity and enthusiasm for beginners.

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:40 pm

hzrnbgy said:



Remember the device is to teach programming, not to provide hardware hackers with lots of GPIO, ADC, PICs etc. You may be better off with Arduino if that is the bag you are into.



That is why the RPI has a GPIO header with a reasonable number of General Purpouse I/O pins, plus the most common interfaces, such as a UART, I2C and SPI (with chip selects for two devices). One GPIO can also be reassigned to output a PWM signal.

Obviously it won't cover everybody's needs, but for educational purposes it covers the basics.

randomvibe
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:32 pm

JamesH said:


randomvibe said:


JamesH said:


Remember the device is to teach programming, not to provide hardware hackers with lots of GPIO, ADC, PICs etc. You may be better off with Arduino if that is the bag you are into.


If the intent is to teach programming only, why not just do that on your home PC or laptop.  If one has an R-Pi, they must have access to a real computer to make the purchase.  The R-Pi has some very limited GPIO, so obviously the intent is to enable programmers to interact with the outside world.  I think this is an aspect that has made Arduino very popular, and was likely an inspiration to the R-Pi itself.  Not sure how anyone can consider zero ADCs "lots of hardware".


a) Because not everyone has a laptop or desktop.

b) Raspi's are much cheaper than desktops or laptops

cb) You don't need a classroom of PC's to buy a classroom of Raspi's.

d) You can afford to break the OS on a Raspi with your action,s school and home PC's not so much!

e) The intent of the Raspi isn't to enable people to interact with the outside world (outside HDMI, keyboard, mouse) - the GPIO's are a bonus, as is the camera I/F.



For those without any kind of computer and for educators wanting R-Pi's for the classroom, these people will need monitors, keyboard, mice, etc.  So the real price to program is somewhere around $200 with shipping & handling.  You can buy a laptop or two net books for that price.

This forum is about "Features and requests".  I think I speak for many potential R-Pi users and I'd say add an ADC chip and include Numpy and Scipy as part of the standard Python download.  Thank you.

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:57 pm

randomvibe said:


This forum is about "Features and requests".  I think I speak for many potential R-Pi users and I'd say add an ADC chip and include Numpy and Scipy as part of the standard Python download.  Thank you.



The Gertboard has a 2-channel D/A and a 2 channel A/D. It also has the potential for a atmel Atmega 328p chip which has 6 A/D convertors on-board and up to 6 PWM outputs. (along with more Digital IO) Adding this to the original Pi would just have made it more expensive...

Can't help with the libaries as I'm not a Python programmer, however at the end of the day, it's just another Linux box which will run several different Linux distributions - and checking Debian, I see both these libraires present, so looks like it has everything you need...

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:59 pm

randomvibe said:


For those without any kind of computer and for educators wanting R-Pi's for the classroom, these people will need monitors, keyboard, mice, etc.  So the real price to program is somewhere around $200 with shipping & handling.  You can buy a laptop or two net books for that price.

This forum is about "Features and requests".  I think I speak for many potential R-Pi users and I'd say add an ADC chip and include Numpy and Scipy as part of the standard Python download.  Thank you.


Man that was getting to be one long he said/she said   As someone who has worked in an ISD (in the USA) you'd be surprised how expensive *everything* IT related is.  It's not enough to just get a $200 netbook or laptop, it has to meet this criteria and that criteria and be bought from this company.  I've never seen a laptop purchased for less than $800

As for non educational environments, ideally you'd use a TV so the cost of the pi ($25 model A) plus the cost of keyboard/mouse/SD card/PSU would put it in the $50 range (even less if your family has a spare mouse or you can use the SD card that no one wanted from your camera or phone or mp3 player)

I have no opinion on the ADC chip issue
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:59 am

Surely  the 'ADC issue' (and corresponding DtoA) is being met by after-market add-on boards for users to select as to requirement and need ... that way the base model needs not have 'revision of the week'.

Hopefully the soon-to-be-revamped website /shop part will carry a 'sticky' or display area of available boards and method of ordering (whether direct or via the shop - this could obviously depend on location of both supplier and recipient!)

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:37 am

Now there is a rumor in the Arduino community (link below) that the R-Pi I2C and SPI pins are useless because the drivers are not written.  Is this true?

http://arduino.cc/forum/index......#msg749414

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:37 pm

Even if the drivers are not written, once they are, the pins won"t be useless. Sounds like a minor dig to be honest from the arduino side. . .
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:16 pm

SN said:


Even if the drivers are not written, once they are, the pins won"t be useless. Sounds like a minor dig to be honest from the arduino side. . .



I think there's a place for both - the RPi really isn't suited to being used for real-time control (unless you dump Linux), but it is suited to be able to be used as a "supervisor processor" to talk to something else (Like an Arduino) which is better suited for real time control purposes.

It will be good for teaching the basics though.

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:15 pm

randomvibe said:


Now there is a rumor in the Arduino community (link below) that the R-Pi I2C and SPI pins are useless because the drivers are not written.  Is this true?

http://arduino.cc/forum/index......#msg749414


Doesn't seem to be true, at least the SPI driver has been written, for the gerboard demo, see http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/960

The I2C hardware is fully documented in the datasheet for the broadcom BCM2835, you can find here:

http://www.element14.com/commu.....spberry-pi

So writing a driver should be relatively painless.

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:55 am

Frankly, the gertboard is a waste of time.  I would rather see the 32-bit Maple board interfaced with the R-Pi.  The Maple will likely be cheaper and is certainly more mature (sorely needed in R-Pi).  The Maple is $45 and includes:


STM32 F103RB: a 32-bit ARM Cortex M3 microprocessor
Clock Speed: 72 MHz
39 Digital I/O Pins (GPIO)
16 Analog Input Pins (12-bit ADC)
15 PWM pins at 16-bit resolution (PWM)
Four 4-channel Timers (Timers)
Dedicated USB port for programming and communications (USB)
External JTAG interface (USB)
128 Flash and 20KB SRAM
Integrated SPI (SPI)
Integrated I2C (I2C)
3 USART divices (USART)

http://leaflabs.com/devices/maple/

Perhaps the Gert person may have a better chance recouping his time & money by refocusing his efforts on marrying the R-Pi to the Maple, as an option.  Come up with a python and/or C library making the marriage, and for every Maple sold on the R-Pi store, Gert makes a percentage.  If not the Maple, perhaps the Arduino 32-bit "Due" due anytime now.

hzrnbgy
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:10 am

How about a $15 STM32F4 board

Cortex-M4

1MB flash

168MHz

192KB SRAM

built in accelerometer, digital MIC, audio out, audio DAC, motion sensor

ethernetMAC

SWD (debug)

15 timers

5 USART (LIN, RS485, IrDA)

all the good stuff

http://www.mouser.com/ProductD.....N%252b9qEw

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:01 am

randomvibe said:


Frankly, the gertboard is a waste of time.

...

Perhaps the Gert person may have a better chance recouping his time & money ...


I think you'll find "the Gert person" (who is usually, and rather more politely, known simply as "Gert", what with that being his name and all) might disagree.  The gertboard, as it has come to be known, was, after all, created to scratch his itch, with a few additions that were requested by community members.

It may not meet your personal expectations as to what an expansion board should be, but that's hardly Gert's problem, is it?  If you don't want one, don't buy one.  Indeed, if you think you can make something "better", there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so; it's even probable that the Foundation would allow you to market it through their store (or, at least, provide links to your own store).  Alternatively, you could perhaps petition Gert to incorporate your desires in a future revision / alternative board by sending an email something like this:


Oi, Gert person.

You're bord is teh suxx0r. mak it betar u moran. OR ELS!


My personal opinion is that, if you want something that behaves like an Arduino, you probably shouldn't be starting with a Raspberry Pi.

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:49 pm

randomvibe said:


Frankly, the gertboard is a waste of time.  I would rather see the 32-bit Maple board interfaced with the R-Pi.  The Maple will likely be cheaper and is certainly more mature (sorely needed in R-Pi).  The Maple is $45 and includes:


STM32 F103RB: a 32-bit ARM Cortex M3 microprocessor
Clock Speed: 72 MHz
39 Digital I/O Pins (GPIO)
16 Analog Input Pins (12-bit ADC)
15 PWM pins at 16-bit resolution (PWM)
Four 4-channel Timers (Timers)
Dedicated USB port for programming and communications (USB)
External JTAG interface (USB)
128 Flash and 20KB SRAM
Integrated SPI (SPI)
Integrated I2C (I2C)
3 USART divices (USART)

http://leaflabs.com/devices/maple/

Perhaps the Gert person may have a better chance recouping his time & money by refocusing his efforts on marrying the R-Pi to the Maple, as an option.  Come up with a python and/or C library making the marriage, and for every Maple sold on the R-Pi store, Gert makes a percentage.  If not the Maple, perhaps the Arduino 32-bit "Due" due anytime now.


We like people to be polite to others here. That post certainly wasn't polite to Gert (yes, that's his name, not Gert person). There are ways and means of putting across your point without rudeness. First (and only) warning.
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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:18 pm

JamesH said:


We like people to be polite to others here. That post certainly wasn't polite to Gert (yes, that's his name, not Gert person). There are ways and means of putting across your point without rudeness. First (and only) warning.


I initially 'Gert person' sounded rude, but then realised the OP might not know the Gert board was named for the person designing it. So 'Gert person' could just be shorthand for 'the person designing the Gert board'...

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Re: R-Pi Python with Numpy & Scipy

Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:24 pm

Let"s sort this out.  Of course, the intent was not to be rude to any single person.  So my apologies to Gert.  My intent is to provide suggestions to improve the R-Pi and thus I will not mince words in that respect.

Regarding the R-Pi marriage to Maple or the Arduino 32-bit Due, I"m suggesting that as an optional add-on to keep your precious price down for the basic R-Pi.  I think a vast customer base is there for the taking – why else would R-Pi pursue the Gertboard.  What I"m trying to convey is this… that Arduino marriage will happen eventually and will compete with the Gertboard.  To be diplomatically as possible (because I"ve been warned once), the Gertboard sales may disappoint.  So I recommend being the first to broker the Arduino marriage and reap the sales.

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