USvER
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:28 pm

Hello my heroes!
I'm very excited about this project and i definately will purchase couple of this or more!
I will try to use this as slim clients, and i think it wuld be perfect for this(RaspberryPi B)! But there is some real questions that shuld be clarified:
1) For my use-case i nead at least 3 USB ports(keyboard, mouse, USB flash stick) so i can't understend why you integrated USB hub only for 2 port's... I think it wuld be more efficient to make 4 ports USB hub or to not make it at all. At my location USB hub costs 5$ so I think it shuld be integrated.
2) There shuld be plastic case for this. It will be more efficient to make it, becose cost of custom-made case for this bord at my location is like 10x of board cost. In mass production it wuld be like 0.10$.... It can be sold as a *premium* package or sold separately but it definately shuld exist...Otherwise people all aroud the world will nail down this board to walls...

So my Request/Suggestion is to make some sort of *premium* package with 4 usb(integrated or external) hub with plastic case and AC\DC adapter with HDMI-to-DVI cable.

Love you! Make my dream come true! <3

PS: Sorry for my bad English =\
PPS: My birthday is november 12, i want this so badly!!! Ready to purchase it as 50$ premium package!

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liz
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:52 pm

We've ended up with 2 usb ports because of the form factor - if the board is to be kept credit-card sized, there's just nowhere else to put one once you've got power, HDMI and all the other ports you can see in the video on the front page.

A plastic case isn't necessary for hobbyists, who are our target for the initial release; in fact, lots of people here have asked for a naked board so they can get busy with the soldering irons. The educational release, which is scheduled for early 2012, and which will be our standard product, will have a case for reasons of robustness (although a case-less board will always be available too if people prefer that). That case hasn't been designed yet, but it'll be removable with a screwdriver for any kids who fancy a bit of hardware hacking.

So I'm afraid you'll have to buy a hub (and we'll be selling hubs which I hope will be branded on this site if you want to support the project), but you *can* have a case if you can wait until next year.
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:54 am

Liz: how much more does the SMC 9514 chipset cost?
USvER: if you take a look at a beagle board -xM you will see that there are two stacked USB connectors there is a space between them. This arrangement is typical of every small board I have seen so far. I do not see them stacked next to each other as you see them on x86 style boards. I would be interested to hear why they do not stack tight as on x86. This would take a much larger board. They are not only trying to keep cost down, they are also trying to keep the physical size down. There are a lot of project cases out there that you can put a powered hub the RasPi and any other things you need inside. maybe one of the inventive people here will design a case that has the powered hub and space for the RasPi together. Hopefully something that can be sold on the site.
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:28 am

liz, thank you wery much for that quick response! I will keep an eye on this... I'm submited my email to the mailing list but get no email on alpha boards arrival... You not sent or this is some kind of issue?
Lob0426, it wuld be perfect if someone can do that... I'm actualy think of it by myself but prices for non-serial production is so high...
Another approach is to use standart case but i'm not sure how to make holes in it and how to attach two PCB to it... So my first thought was to buy some USB hub(with AC\DC adapter) large enaugh to hold RPi in it, so we will kill 2 bunnys(single case and single adapter)... but it seems that there is no such hub...

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:52 am

Yes I looked also for a powered hub that you could slip a RasPi inside. I had no luck either. Same problem with keyboards, but still looking. The RasPi will already have mounting holes through the board. You just need to have some sort of standoffs just high enough not to crush the SD card slot on the Bottom.. The Raspi will not need a ground to the case as most x86 do. Just about any small metal or plastic case will work here.

Another forum user posted this link for project cases.
http://www.mouser.com/Enclosur.....xes-Cases/
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:33 am

Will the final R.Pi fit inside a 3.5" HDD case, once the innards are removed ? If not, it will surely fit into an EXTERNAL 3.5" drive enclosure. That gives us the power supply at the same time, just make sure to buy a cheap plastic enclosure so that drilling holes is not too hard ^^
Those are a lot less expensive than the specialty "project cases" listed above, and probably just as workable.

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:10 am

Quote from liz on August 14, 2011, 22:52
...
A plastic case isn't necessary for hobbyists, who are our target for the initial release; in fact, lots of people here have asked for a naked board so they can get busy with the soldering irons. The educational release, which is scheduled for early 2012, and which will be our standard product, will have a case for reasons of robustness (although a case-less board will always be available too if people prefer that). ...

This is the first time I have noticed someone from the Raspi foundation say hobbyists are the first target, mention an "educational release", and pronounce a 2012 release. (Late-2011 release targets hobbyists I assume.)

I am not surprised to see these developments (after all the forums are being driven largely by hobbyists), and if they are indeed new, it might be worth an announcement. Just thinking aloud.

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:26 am

Cafe: If the youth of the world were in here posting their projects then the RasPi foundation would not need to exist. There are some in here but I would like to see a chart posting ages for the forum members. Since the profile does not ask for our age I can not see that as possible right now. I think you would see it biased towards 25 and up. Might be interesting to add birth year to the profile and see what happens.

For the record I am 49.
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:23 am

Yeah, it has been mentioned before by the r-pi team ( I believe in a thread discussing what software would come prepackaged on it) and at least once by myself as well, but it's a big forum and easy to gloss over a random post. Regardless, even if it hadn't be discussed, it not really too big a deal is it? I mean it makes a lot of sense to release a product to a community of hobbyist. It allows you to stress test your device in manners that you'd never have thought of yourself, which us to work out any remaining kinks that may exist in the device such that when they release it for educational uses they really have a top notch, robust and extremely stable product.

Honestly, I even plan to take the device and put a few course ideas together. It's be pretty awesome if one of my ideas for a tech class ended up being taught!
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:25 am

For the record, I am 42.

abishur: Yep, the forum topics and messages are growing fast (which is great) and it is hard to catch up with all the updates. For example, I almost missed the announcement of the alpha boards arriving :( .

BTW, I am keeping an eye on various ideas discussed in these forums for inclusion in hands-on workshops I conduct (largely in developing countries, but generally world-wide) for a non-profit. I will be happy to include any relevant material from you and others (with permission and due credit of course).

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:16 pm

Beta testers: in reality Microsoft has been doing this to us for years. I did not bother to buy vista home for two years after it's release as it had so many bugs. I did buy win95A and was one of the beta testers (paid full price for something that was not really ready for market). It's network support was not even a step up from win3.11. Win95B was released and improved by a good factor, do to the public being it's beta testers. Win98 I also bought at release and same deal. So it is not uncommon to release a product to market and have the public beta test it.
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:02 pm

I can absolutely assure you that we won't be shipping a product that still requires beta testing! What you'll see at the end of the year will be the finished, polished product. The reasons we're having a hobbyist release first are basically dull old business reasons - we need some income to get the larger release of boards made, which we mean to raise by selling the first batch to…you lot, because we know the demand is there!

And please don't compare Raspi to Vista. It gives me a pain. ;)
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:30 pm

Quote from liz on August 15, 2011, 14:02
I can absolutely assure you that we won't be shipping a product that still requires beta testing! What you'll see at the end of the year will be the finished, polished product. The reasons we're having a hobbyist release first are basically dull old business reasons - we need some income to get the larger release of boards made, which we mean to raise by selling the first batch to…you lot, because we know the demand is there!

It makes perfect sense to sell to the adventurous and the forgiving type (which I think we hobbyists are, though some of us might sound unforgiving) first to both float some capital and to test out the boards.

Now for that unforgiving-sounding part: As you might well know, no product is finished (even in a rough sense) until it is released to users' hands, no matter how many user groups and reps are involved in prototyping, production, and in-house testing. Of course, we all wish the Raspi to come out "finished and polished", but we also want it yesterday. :(

And please don't compare Raspi to Vista. It gives me a pain. ;)

I hear you. :)

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:58 pm

Cafe's description of finished product is what I've been referring to as well ;) it's why I didn't want to go quiet as far as call us beta testers, but did describe us as putting it through a stress test of extreme (dare I say bizarre?) measures :)
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:13 pm

Quote from abishur on August 15, 2011, 14:58
but did describe us as putting it through a stress test of extreme (dare I say bizarre?) measures :)

we are the idiots that they need to proof against.

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:47 pm

Liz: don't get your nickers in a twist please.
From what I have read in these forums your poor little RasPi's are going to get put through the ringer, bashed, some trashed and have unholy things done to them. Though you will be releasing a robust, polished product, I fear you will learn a few short comings in a device that is meant to be software bashed at least. I do not plan on blaming you when a RasPi burns down when I make it a lava lamp! I do not see any warranty that says this device is meant to be mounted into a football to test inertial guidance software. The public always teaches companies (or your foundation) just how far their devices are or are not willing to go. Ask Broadcom how many times they have released a product that they thought was idiot proof and then had to re-idiot proof it again through one if not several firmware updates. I am sure we will leave you shaking your head at the predicaments we will get into in our experiments. In the end you will have a device that has truly been TESTED.

I guess it was bit far to compare it to vista! If I was a genius I would not have wound up in prison for 25+ years. I will be on parole soon(retire).
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:55 am

So does dipping one in resin and making a puter neck lass count as abuse in any way? ;)

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:30 am

Computers and fashion are mutually exclusive in my mind. The epoxy part may be ok, but the necklace, unless it is a working device, may be abusive.
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:59 am

Quote from Lob0426 on August 15, 2011, 01:54
Liz: how much more does the SMC 9514 chipset cost?
....

Here are the unit prices for different batch sizes at Digikey:

LAN9512 (2 USB, 1 Ethernet; used on the Raspi):
- 1 piece $7.6; 10K batch $3.72 http://bit.ly/nhotDe
LAN9514 (4 USB, 1 Ethernet):
- 1 piece $8.93; 10K batch $4.46 http://bit.ly/nf6UUY

The Raspi folks are likely buying in bulk of at least 10K. So, the 9514 costs ~75 cents more per piece. That from Digikey, so the difference can be a tad bit smaller in China (but not too much). Add to that the cost of more USB connectors.

Obviously, apart from cost, there are also electrical and physical board-design considerations (the size of the additional USB ports) in using the 9514 instead of the 9512. I assume the physical dimensions of the 9514 and 9512 are about the same; I haven't looked into the electrical aspects.

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:00 am

Cafe, thank you. This is interesting info. Too bad we can't get that... I hope Ras-Pi foundation will reconsider...

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:25 am

I have different expectations when it comes to hardware, and I expect that the first version of the board will be the real deal. I don't see why the board shouldn't be reliable in the "typical" scenario (HD/SD TV, standard-compliant USB devices, ethernet, decent power supply).

Firmware glitches/bugs are not a big deal for me. My understanding is that the firmware is loaded from the SD card and therefore can easily be patched.

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:45 am

It's more than just software. Pandora is a perfect example of Murphy's law. Pretty much everything that could go wrong, did go wrong for those guys.

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:06 am

I didn't follow pandora, so I don't know what went wrong for them, but their product looks very complex to me. I think that the Raspberry Pi team did a good job at keeping the design simple. That should help a lot.

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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:05 am

Quote from Cafe on August 15, 2011, 14:30
It makes perfect sense to sell to the adventurous and the forgiving type (which I think we hobbyists are, though some of us might sound unforgiving) first to both float some capital and to test out the boards.

Now for that unforgiving-sounding part: As you might well know, no product is finished (even in a rough sense) until it is released to users' hands, no matter how many user groups and reps are involved in prototyping, production, and in-house testing. Of course, we all wish the Raspi to come out "finished and polished", but we also want it yesterday. :(

I hear you. :)

Worth remembering that the majority of software running on the Raspi will already have been very thoroughly tested as its is software that is already released at Broadcom (the GPU software is a case in point- this has been in development for 10 years and is pretty good. It's used in millions of product worldwide with very few issues). The Linux software is much newer, but is not developed specifically for the Raspi, and has undergone and is still undergoing a lot of work. The Linux software is already used in released product in the wide wide world!

That said, there will be software specifically developed for the Raspi as it is a new board design, just not as much as people may think there is, and therefor much less to go wrong.
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Re: Interfaces, Case, Package (Request/Suggestion)

Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:00 pm

Quote from Cafe on August 16, 2011, 06:59
Quote from Lob0426 on August 15, 2011, 01:54
Liz: how much more does the SMC 9514 chipset cost?
....

Here are the unit prices for different batch sizes at Digikey:

LAN9512 (2 USB, 1 Ethernet; used on the Raspi):
- 1 piece $7.6; 10K batch $3.72 http://bit.ly/nhotDe
LAN9514 (4 USB, 1 Ethernet):
- 1 piece $8.93; 10K batch $4.46 http://bit.ly/nf6UUY

The Raspi folks are likely buying in bulk of at least 10K. So, the 9514 costs ~75 cents more per piece. That from Digikey, so the difference can be a tad bit smaller in China (but not too much). Add to that the cost of more USB connectors.

Obviously, apart from cost, there are also electrical and physical board-design considerations (the size of the additional USB ports) in using the 9514 instead of the 9512. I assume the physical dimensions of the 9514 and 9512 are about the same; I haven't looked into the electrical aspects.

Late reply (been busy...)
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