slos
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:06 pm

Although I despise the Eclipse IDE, I just tried running Eclipse with 64MB of RAM (min ram 64m, max 128m) in a Windows XP environment (My god, I also hate Windows so much by the way, http://www.urbandictionary.com.....ft+windows).

It works! I mean, created a new Maven project, started coding, compiled the code.... ). Ram usage rose to +/- 70MB. It looks like this kind of setup would run on a Raspberry Pi. So I take it that it is possible to install a Java IDE and write programs for use on a Raspberry Pi. Good news!

geeday
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:19 pm

learn to code without an IDE, just like the good old days.

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SN
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:42 pm

I think the answer for the intended audience is somewhere between a command line and a full blown eclipse type idea, maybe something like the old MS Quick C interface that came with their DOS C Compilers
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

slos
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:50 pm

geeday said:


learn to code without an IDE, just like the good old days.


don't want to code without an IDE…. let's leave the good old days behind and look towards the future

slos
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:04 pm

lightweight, java IDE, never tried it though...

http://tide.olympe-network.com/

JonB
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:47 pm

What about geaney?

This is the one Liam (is he anything to do with the foundation?" installs on his Debian "raspberry pi" simulation in the RPi training videos.

I've just started playing with it and I think it's OK. Definitely looks lighter weight than Eclipse (which I think is a slug by the way), and has a nice, clean interface that looks like it would work on a smaller screen.

Shame with it is the editor - it doesn't recognise vi key sequences....

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rurwin
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:31 pm

... probably not emacs ones either

I've tried writing Python on eclipse and I can't see the point. It might have a lot of tools to use with java, but it doesn't seem to offer much for Python.

I haven't looked at geaney, I'll have to get around to doing so.

I like IDLE for a new programmer. It doesn't offer much, but you can write code and run it, and that's about all a new programmer needs. There's nothing to cause confusion.

Personally I use jEdit and a command-line, it isn't all-singing-all-dancing, but it does what I want.

Lance Constable Carrot
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:19 pm

I always write my programs in C and C++ with Codeblocks. It has a very small memory footprint and is like Visual Studio. It is very easy to work with.
Currently I am developing my programs in my Beaglebone ( arm with Ubuntu and 256 mb) with Codeblocks. If you want to save more memory you can also make a "export DISPLAY" to open windows in a developer desktop, for example in a linux machine or a windows machine with xming.

TheEponymousBob
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Re: suitable IDE

Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:47 pm

Of course many features of your IDE can be handled by running remotely from a beefier machine. Step-through debugging might not be feasible, and you might have to faff with your build environments, but it"s an option for some projects.

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mkopack
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:15 am

There's also Netbeans (which I prefer over Eclipse)... Not sure about the memory footprint however...

There's also JEdit ( http://www.jedit.org/ ) which I've used in the past. But again, no idea on the memory footprint.

Both SHOULD work (other than any memory constraints), as they are built in java...

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SN
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:32 am

I think we're straying from the main Use Case for the raspi - that of a classroom of kids all sat with one in front of them with a screen, keyboard and mouse - there's no option to have 'remote machines' etc
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

TheEponymousBob
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:21 am

Absolutely—my response was simply intended to be of use to the OP. Had the question been phrased in terms of a suitable IDE for the classroom, I wouldn"t have mentioned it.

Im absolutely the first to agree that the RPF are correct to make policy decisions in terms of hardware and "official" software based on its primary intent, but I dont think that precludes discussion of how the rest of us intend to use them, does it?

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Jim Manley
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:32 am

Present the various options to the kids and let _them_ decide what's easy/hard/powerful/wimpy/etc., based on their personal experiences and preferences for doing things.  Some will prefer command lines, others will need a GUI, and a few could probably even adapt/develop their own IDE, given open-source examples!  No matter how they get there, the end result should be code that executes properly, is self-documented with well-though-out data structure naming and comments, and, after they've gotten the basics down, has improving efficiency in terms of performance, memory/processor/file resource consumption, etc.  I think they should at least be exposed to working on the command line just so they can appreciate how hard software development was and still can be, in environments still stuck in the Stone Age.

Try writing software for the ancient cable TV set-top boxes with 4 MB of RAM that are still out there, "supported" by manufacturer-controlled toolchains that haven't been updated in decades, bugs and all.  In some ways, the limited resources of the R-Pi will be a good lesson to kids that you can't always rely on there being the latest-and-greatest tools available on resource-limited platforms.  Today's mobile and embedded devices are perfect examples of things where development is still challenging due to the laws of physics.  Sometimes, the only editor available is a line editor and, if you're really lucky, vi - you can't just bring in whatever high-falutin' modern technology to which you've become overly dependent (e.g., in truly secure environments, where no connection to the outside world can be allowed, such as installing your favorite IDE/editor/etc.).  Not every environment is supported by cross-compilers, etc., either, especially in the embedded world.
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- W.B. Yeats
In theory, theory & practice are the same - in practice, they aren't!!!

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Jessie
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:01 am

geeday said:


learn to code without an IDE, just like the good old days.



When you need to build a shed to you call the blacksmith to forge you some nails?

R37R0
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:00 am

geeday said:


learn to code without an IDE, just like the good old days.



learn to code in vi!

Lance Constable Carrot
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:22 am

R37R0 said:


geeday said:


learn to code without an IDE, just like the good old days.


learn to code in vi!



Even better, learn to code with punched cards!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....nched_card

Maybe you can learn something interesting.

mcb1
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:58 am

Hanno is currently looking at integrating Pi into his 12blocks program.

This is a simple graphical drag and drop style that allows Picaxe, Arduino and Propeller to be programed with the same interface.

he has opened a discussion here

http://forums.hannoware.com/vi.....7c2447176b

and 12blocks info is here

http://hannoware.com/

mark

tufty
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Re: suitable IDE

Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:46 am

Jessie said:


geeday said:


learn to code without an IDE, just like the good old days


When you need to build a shed to you call the blacksmith to forge you some nails?


Although poetic, I fail to see the relevance in your lovely little putdown.

One might want to consider the "ethos" of Unix software, viz:


do one thing, and do it well


A text editor edits text.  Many text editors come with tools for helping programming (autocompletion, documentation lookup, autobuild, TODO flagging, and so on) and can equal or outstrip the vast majority of IDEs in terms of text editing ability.

A debugger debugs code. Command line debuggers tend to be, to put it mildly, "sparse", but in most cases "friendly" front ends exist.  Equalling or outstripping IDEs again.

Build systems (for compiled code) also exist.  Make is the granddaddy, followed and / or supplemented by autotools, CMake, ant, and all the others.  Here IDEs are a win, as messing with make files (or worse, autotools config files) is a bitch.  Until you try and give your source to someone who can't use your IDE of choice, or who doesn't want to do anything but `./configure && make && sudo make install`

GUI designers?  Yep, standalone again.  Hell, even Apple's Interface Builder was a separate application for 10 years, and none the worse for it.

The rest is just glitz that nails you to one platform.

slos
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Re: suitable IDE

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:17 pm

Good luck to those who use vi to work on projects with 10s of developers working on 100s of modules with 1000s of packages, with 10000s of classes.

For these projects you don't want vi, you want an IDE. Debugging, unit testing, project management,...  that kind of stuff.

This for example:

http://preview3.vivid-planet.c......html#toc5

...runs on a AMD K6 200.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A....._k6#Models

That's just a fraction of the spec of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....ifications

geeday
Posts: 23
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Re: suitable IDE

Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:03 pm

tufty said:


Jessie said:


geeday said:


learn to code without an IDE, just like the good old days


When you need to build a shed to you call the blacksmith to forge you some nails?


Although poetic, I fail to see the relevance in your lovely little putdown.

One might want to consider the "ethos" of Unix software, viz:


do one thing, and do it well


A text editor edits text.  Many text editors come with tools for helping programming (autocompletion, documentation lookup, autobuild, TODO flagging, and so on) and can equal or outstrip the vast majority of IDEs in terms of text editing ability.

A debugger debugs code. Command line debuggers tend to be, to put it mildly, "sparse", but in most cases "friendly" front ends exist.  Equalling or outstripping IDEs again.

Build systems (for compiled code) also exist.  Make is the granddaddy, followed and / or supplemented by autotools, CMake, ant, and all the others.  Here IDEs are a win, as messing with make files (or worse, autotools config files) is a bitch.  Until you try and give your source to someone who can"t use your IDE of choice, or who doesn"t want to do anything but `./configure && make && sudo make install`

GUI designers?  Yep, standalone again.  Hell, even Apple"s Interface Builder was a separate application for 10 years, and none the worse for it.

The rest is just glitz that nails you to one platform.



Guess that was my point, I feel only being able to code using an IDE potentially limits you.

A similar theme to learning to program using an "untyped" language.

Bakul Shah
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Re: suitable IDE

Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:32 pm

Remember that over time you will be using many different editors, debuggers, compilers, test frameworks, languages, operating systems, GUI frameworks etc. If you are used to an integrated environment you will have much more difficulty adapting to change (forced on you by a job change or project change etc.). If you are used to the Unix style a la carte approach for tools, switching is much easier. Often the most critical tool is the editor and it is much easier if you can just continue using the same editor.

Note that there is constant change in almost *every* useful tool and there are newer (and some times better) ways of doing the same thing. Such evolution occurs much faster in independent tools as opposed to within an IDE. And you are not bound by just what the IDE developers thought of. What is more, you will end up fashioning your own scripts for doing something specific (this is much harder to do in an IDE even if it has a `plugin' architecture because all plugin archs are incredibly baroque).

So to new users I would definitely recommend learning individual tools. An IDE may save you time initially but it will also lock you in (just like Windows tools!).

Nurbit
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Re: suitable IDE

Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:26 am

I think that anyone using the Pi outside of education will find their own "best method" of coding that suits their individual needs. If some one wants to use vi, then so be it but everyone else can use an IDE if they so desire.

As a general "use in school" programming tool, I don't actually believe that the kids will decide for themselves… not initially anyway.

If programming is to be taught to kids who may or may not be interested, the first development environment they see will be the one favoured by their teacher.

Don't forget that in quite a few schools, the teachers themselves will be learning at pretty much the same rate as the kids so they will probably go with the same environment as the one used in the teaching material they will be supplied with.

…Just my 2 pence worth anyway

:EDIT:

Something else I've just thought about........

Surely for education, the best choice will be some sort of cross platform IDE.

I can imagine schools having a few Pis but really, the school would want to use it's existing PCs for the class lessons and the Pi would be owned by the students for them to work on at home.

Then again, I work in a school and am going from personal experience. I know not all schools will be the same.

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