Bad Wolf
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:20 pm

Quote from Slashdot


“I have no idea where this would be used. My cables have that little lock tab not a magnet. Does it not need the little tab anymore (that always breaks off)?”

To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

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meltwater
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:27 pm

I imagine the sourcing is not done per batch…you find a supplier and say you want x amount now and then you order more for the rest of your building.  Each time you change a part, you have to re-source them, which means finding a supplier, ensuring it is the correct part, workout what costs there are etc etc.

In an ideal world you"d have several suppliers for each part, but that is not always possible.

I"ve managed to confuse myself about where the 10k of boards currently are now.

"the factory is nearly done working on replacing them on the first set of boards"  Does that mean the foundation had them and already returned them and soon they will be on their way back?

Interesting all the same about the difference within the jack itself [I remember seeing those black squares on the NICs, makes perfect sense now], goes to show how tight everything is…after-all most network cards are bigger than the raspberry pi!

Bad Wolf said:


Quote from Slashdot


“I have no idea where this would be used. My cables have that little lock tab not a magnet. Does it not need the little tab anymore (that always breaks off)?”



Love it!
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nick.mccloud
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:32 pm

hippy said:


There's a moral somewhere in there about always building one exactly as the production line will and testing before committing to a full build.


Not always feasible with automated assembly lines. And anyway, this was a part substitution issue after the first few had been checked, not an assembly issue.

Once did work for a big canned drinks manufacturer. To check the can design was OK required the line to be briefly run, by which time 10,000 were printed. We got real good at checking before we started that line!

steviewevie
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:08 pm

crispyking said:


I don"t get it.

The original manufacturer used the wrong part for the first batch, and now they have to be sent back for correction.

But "there may now be a slight delay in later batches if there’s a problem sourcing enough magnetic jacks".

I thought RS and Farnell were manufacturing the later batches. Have both of them messed up and sourced the wrong components as well?


It sounds like (based on other postings) they are using the same manufacturer. So if RS and Farnell have placed orders for X more units, then the factory has probably already ordered X more "wrong" sockets. So now the factory has to go and find X of the "correct" sockets, possibly leading to delay if there is an extra lead time on those (e.g. they are only just ordering them now instead of a week ago, or whatever).

jamesh
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:20 pm

steviewevie said:


crispyking said:


I don"t get it.

The original manufacturer used the wrong part for the first batch, and now they have to be sent back for correction.

But "there may now be a slight delay in later batches if there’s a problem sourcing enough magnetic jacks".

I thought RS and Farnell were manufacturing the later batches. Have both of them messed up and sourced the wrong components as well?


It sounds like (based on other postings) they are using the same manufacturer. So if RS and Farnell have placed orders for X more units, then the factory has probably already ordered X more "wrong" sockets. So now the factory has to go and find X of the "correct" sockets, possibly leading to delay if there is an extra lead time on those (e.g. they are only just ordering them now instead of a week ago, or whatever).


Pretty much the case I believe.
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drgeoff
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:27 pm

Removing that part is no trivial task.  Is there an automated solution that could be immediately brought into service?  To do it manually one joint at a time with a soldering iron and solderwick is a fairly slow and immensely boring job.  Maybe a custom bit for the iron that can melt all the joints at the same time is the most expedient solution.  Probably still need an iron and solder wick to clean up the holes before the replacement jack can be inserted.  I'm not sure if automation can take over at that point or if the replacement jack needs to be inserted manually and soldered manually.

Whatever the process is, I suspect that whatever profit the  manufacturer thought he was making on that batch has now disappeared!  I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of whoever is responsible for the substitution.

rmm200
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:31 pm

While you had one production board in hand, with a removed bad socket, what other testing did you do?

Does it pass all other acceptance tests?

hippy
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:43 pm

liz said:


Jamesh is right - they sent us test units which *did* have the right part on before they moved to a larger batch.


That's as out of your hands as much as getting builders in to paint the front door black, checking they know it is to be black, checking the sample of paint they say they'll use is black, and coming home to find it bright green.

At some point one has to put faith in people doing what they say they will and it seems there is little the Foundation could have done except catch the mistake after the act.

I can imagine how colourful phrases were when it was discovered what had happened!

Smartybones
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:44 pm

what would be an AWESOME idea while there is an issue sourcing the correct components....

DO A RUN OF MODEL A BOARDS!!!

as it is exactly the same as the b board, minus the RJ 45 and a difrent usb socket, take off the USB hub chip....

there are plenty of people that really only want a model A board because they are going to hook it up to wifi, and with the addition of extra ram to match the Model B...

At least half my projects will be fine on a model A Pi,and I would be happy to have a model A instead replacing the B on my current order.

is it at least something that can be considered? or has it already been dismissed?

it can only be a good thing to get some sort of Pi on customers plates !!

plugwash
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:45 pm

liz said:


Me (when asked what, in that case, a jack without magnetics is useful for):




It doesn’t mean no network connection at all on all devices, but this board has been designed for a magnetic jack. The magnetic bits mean better signal integrity, better filtering and shorter transmission distances for data.






This is not correct, they also crucially provide center taps to provide a path for DC currents from the transmitter to ground and to give the receive signal the correct common mode level. Also because of the aforementioned center taps the pinouts of a jack with integrated magnetics will almost certainly differer from a plain jack. http://www.smsc.com/media/Down.....12_sch.pdf So without the correct magnetics things are unlikely to work at all.

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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:46 pm

@drgeoff

They'll be using something like this.

Forget solder-wick, I've never got it to work especially with plated-through holes, but a solder pump can clean those holes in one or two pumps.

I might be able to do one a minute with the right tools and practise, which means they are probably down to two a minute. 10.5 man-days.

On the other hand, if they mess up the next order it's going to be seriously expensive to fix.

z0mb13e
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:30 pm

drgeoff said:


Removing that part is no trivial task.  Is there an automated solution that could be immediately brought into service?  To do it manually one joint at a time with a soldering iron and solderwick is a fairly slow and immensely boring job.  Maybe a custom bit for the iron that can melt all the joints at the same time is the most expedient solution.  Probably still need an iron and solder wick to clean up the holes before the replacement jack can be inserted.  I'm not sure if automation can take over at that point or if the replacement jack needs to be inserted manually and soldered manually.

Whatever the process is, I suspect that whatever profit the  manufacturer thought he was making on that batch has now disappeared!  I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of whoever is responsible for the substitution.



When I last worked for a large UK electronics manufacturer we used a small solder bath for this sort of thing. A unit that pumped liquid solder up a short colunm about an inch square. You rested the pcb on the pool of solder at the top of the column to melt the through hole solder and then remove the component by hand. Giving the board a short sharp tap immediatley after removing it from the bath and all the solder would be knocked out of the holes ready for the new part which could equally be soldered in one hit using the bath and some liquid flux. Much faster than using a soldering iron, but still mind numbingly boring. Not sure if it would work with lead free solder as that seems to oxidise really quickly then again I'm sure with appropriate flux it might be ok...

Lynbarn
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:52 pm

Smartybones said:


what would be an AWESOME idea while there is an issue sourcing the correct components....

DO A RUN OF MODEL A BOARDS!!!

as it is exactly the same as the b board, minus the RJ 45 and a difrent usb socket, take off the USB hub chip....

there are plenty of people that really only want a model A board because they are going to hook it up to wifi, and with the addition of extra ram to match the Model B...

At least half my projects will be fine on a model A Pi,and I would be happy to have a model A instead replacing the B on my current order.

is it at least something that can be considered? or has it already been dismissed?


It isn't really practical, as there are more detail differences than just the RJ-45 socket. Besides, while you are removing the USB hub, and replacing it with a single USB, and making the other changes (resulting in more wasted components) you are actually doing even more work and making the board worth $10 less. Might as well just fix the problem properly!

HienoMies
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:17 pm

Lynbarn said:


Might as well just fix the problem properly!


Yeah! Many are going to pay many money for this board. Better to be good!

mc349
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:43 pm

Ah I've actually got something to be pleased about not being in the first batch!  I'm not going to get a board that's been hacked at by a bored Chinese worker who''s having to change network jacks all day.  

Smartybones
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:50 pm

Lynbarn said:

. Besides, while you are removing the USB hub, and replacing it with a single USB, and making the other changes 

sorry, i should have made myself a little more clear. I didn't mean convert the broken boards to A's, just do a whole production run of A's and just set aside the broken B's ...

just out of curiosity, where are the 10,000 boards with the wrong RJ45 sockets? had they been delivered to the foundation and the fault picked up in testing, or was it just  sample batch sent out to the foundation? surely if the whole batch is in the UK then to send them back to china would end up costing too much (price wise and time wise) to get them repaired? the manufacturer needs to fix the problem at their expense, its probably cheaper to do a whole production run than a repair job anyway.

If they are in the UK, how about sending boards out to customers with the correct RJ45 socket ready to be installed by the customer, at a discounted price?

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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:53 pm

mc349 said:


...bored Chinese worker who'"s having to change network jacks all day.  


Yup.

Explains the need for the "working conditions inspection" mentioned in another post

PisRUS
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:01 pm

rurwin said:


@drgeoff

They'll be using something like this.

Forget solder-wick, I've never got it to work especially with plated-through holes, but a solder pump can clean those holes in one or two pumps.

I might be able to do one a minute with the right tools and practise, which means they are probably down to two a minute. 10.5 man-days.

On the other hand, if they mess up the next order it's going to be seriously expensive to fix.



I repair old arcade game circuit boards for a living (most boards from the late 70s to mid 90s) and would say that replacing that jack would be dead easy ......... with the right equipment (which I have as I need it for my job).

rmm200
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:03 pm

How far up the line can you push acceptance testing? It would have been a lot cheaper to discover the problem in China.  Second best would be to ship 100 boards to UK for acceptance testing before shipping the whole 10K.

Anything is better than paying air freight for the whole lot both ways.

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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:04 pm

Smartybones said:


If they are in the UK, how about sending boards out to customers with the correct RJ45 socket ready to be installed by the customer, at a discounted price?


You missed out the smiley at the end of that.

I reckon the ratio of people who could successfully do that to the number of people who want a RP is rather small.  The number of bu**ered boards, burnt fingers and burnt down houses(!) might be rather high.

PisRUS
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:06 pm

liz said:


The whole first batch. And they're being airfreighted, hopefully at the start of next week.



Airfreighted which way? Sorry, dumb question perhaps, but I get the impression from this thread and the comments on the main page that:

a) The initial batch of 10,000 was shipped over to the UK a few days ago where you discovered the problem with the LAN jack

b) You returned all 10,000 units to the manufacturer in China

c) That batch have now had the jacks replaced with the correct one and these are being shipped back to the UK next week

Is that correct?

drgeoff
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:13 pm

PisRUS said:



I repair old arcade game circuit boards for a living (most boards from the late 70s to mid 90s) and would say that replacing that jack would be dead easy ......... with the right equipment (which I have as I need it for my job).



Easy enough with the right equipment but how long does it take?  Then multiply by 10,000.  And don't forget those plastic push fit pegs mean the jack doesn't just pop out even when the solder joints are freed up.  Just cut those off with nippers?

PisRUS
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:25 pm

drgeoff said:


PisRUS said:



I repair old arcade game circuit boards for a living (most boards from the late 70s to mid 90s) and would say that replacing that jack would be dead easy ......... with the right equipment (which I have as I need it for my job).



Easy enough with the right equipment but how long does it take?  Then multiply by 10,000.  And don't forget those plastic push fit pegs mean the jack doesn't just pop out even when the solder joints are freed up.  Just cut those off with nippers?


Perhaps the best idea - would need to see one close up to be sure.

Smartybones
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:29 pm

PisRUS said:

I repair old arcade game circuit boards for a living (most boards from the late 70s to mid 90s)
Awesome !!

I have a old Table top space invaders made by SEGA, when I first power it on the top of the screen is all warped, after it warms up a bit it all straightens up nice... I suspect the tube, maybe the deflection coils have a little damp in them or more likely the heater in the tube... either way, the tube looks like its going to need replacing, any hints on where to source a replacement?

PisRUS
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Re: New post on main page: manufacturing hiccup. Please keep comments about it in this thread!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:34 pm

Smartybones said:


PisRUS said:


I repair old arcade game circuit boards for a living (most boards from the late 70s to mid 90s)


Awesome !!

I have a old Table top space invaders made by SEGA, when I first power it on the top of the screen is all warped, after it warms up a bit it all straightens up nice… I suspect the tube, maybe the deflection coils have a little damp in them or more likely the heater in the tube… either way, the tube looks like its going to need replacing, any hints on where to source a replacement?

Have PM'd you a reply to save invoking the wrath of the mods.


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