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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:16 am
by Smartybones
I found this ubuntu bug report regarding "ARM version not supporting V6 RaspPi" and found it an interesting read.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/848154

[Mod fixed link- Michael]

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:10 am
by mkeeley
Interesting. Good argument that all the arm 7 boards together haven't sold as many as the RPi did in one day. You'd think that they'd want to get on the RPi "bandwagon". Having said that I'm quite happy with Fedora and am not sure if Ubuntu would add anything extra but choice is always good.

BTW your link points to this forum, you have to copy/paste the address.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:20 am
by error404
I think this is a good choice for Ubuntu. The distribution doesn't make a lot of sense on Raspberry Pi, and the experience on platforms that are better suited would be harmed by including it.

ARMv6 is really quite dated. If it's wanted it makes sense to maintain it separately, and I can see why Canonical doesn't want to front the effort for it: it doesn't make a lot of sense, it will run like crap.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:10 am
by Vindicator
I agree that Ubuntu would probably run like crap on Raspi especially with only 256Mb of memory, The light version from 10.10 might have ran OK but 11.10 would not run one of my old computers smoothly (HP 531W model)that runs XP sp1 fine it only has 512Mb of memory (the max for this machine)and Ubuntu 11.10 seemed slower than XP sp1 on that machine.

Lobo0426 runs LT version of Ubuntu (I think it is 10.04 or 9.10)on his N270 atom net-top and it runs great but he has 2Gb of ram in the net-top.

I have Puppy 5.2.5 on an old Intel board with 900Mhz Celeron and 448 of memory(yes it is an odd number 128+256+64 dimms is what I had laying around LOL) and this machine run fairly smooth.

There are far more ARM machines running newer cores and instruction sets and more memory for Ubuntu to concentrate on.

I run 11.10 on a HP1223W machine with 2Gb on a Pentium 4 3.06 of memory and it runs smooth and is a great machine, but I also run a second hard drive for this machine with Xp  media edition Sp2 and that run very good on also.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:03 am
by shirro
It would have been good to have one optimised .deb based distro. The more I think about it the more I think Ubuntu would have been the wrong one.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:07 am
by abishur
I'm with Error and Vindicator on this one.  I was really surprised by how bloated the latest version of Ubuntu is.  I blame a lot of that on unity, and got a modest increase when I disabled it, but I ended up going back to 10.04.  It's a little sad that it doesn't have more up to date packages by default, but all that means is I download and install it myself

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:49 am
by nate z
The discussion over there refers to Linaro... Freescale , IBM, Samsung, ST-Ericsson, and Texas Instruments. Notice which SOC vendor is not on that list. Don't see Canonical doing it without Linaro. If Linaro ever did accommodate armv6 that might also open up an Android path for the Pi which would be huge in the target demographic.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:57 am
by cowfodder
shirro said:


It would have been good to have one optimised .deb based distro. The more I think about it the more I think Ubuntu would have been the wrong one.


We already have a .deb based distro.  http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:28 am
by riffraff
Xubuntu runs quite well on Intel machines with 256MB, even to the extent of editing movies. Been there, done that.  I'm sure it would be quite acceptable on RasPi if they bothered to port current version to ARM v6. Trouble is, except for RasPi, that's all Android territory.

From  historical perspective, just reminds me of all the snobby little developers that went belly-up in the early years cuz they wouldn't stoop to porting their s**t to Z80 or 6502 cuz they thought that S-100 bus boat anchors were the real future of personal computing.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:36 am
by shirro
cowfodder said:


shirro said:


It would have been good to have one optimised .deb based distro. The more I think about it the more I think Ubuntu would have been the wrong one.


We already have a .deb based distro.  http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads


And it will probably be fine for lots of use but people will probably drift over to Fedora/Arch/Gentoo etc if the softfloat vs hardfloat difference is at all noticeable.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:40 am
by Vindicator
What about the mid 90's when RISC hardware and OS's were going to take over the computer world and they didn't as yet but maybe with ARM that yet may be realized.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:01 am
by riffraff
Have to qualify earlier remark after thoroughly reading comments, I stopped upgrading at Karmic, have no idea how bloated later versions have gotten. My delight, however,  was not the distro itself, but XFCE desktop.  I just think Canonical/Ubuntu are being too narrow minded. I was under the impression that they were primarily focused on educational support, guess I misunderstood.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:08 am
by riffraff
@Vindicator

That's why I was so jazzed when I heard about this project. The whole ARM explosion just amazes me. Back in the day I had free subscriptions to every major industry periodical and I closely followed RISC device development. I could already see the industry heading for malaise on its current path if there wasn't some CPU/OS diversity in the marketplace.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:18 am
by AlArenal
Look at what Eben told in an interview: "Ubuntu got in touch with us to say ‘how can we stop you saying that Ubuntu runs on Raspberry Pi?’ Which I thought was pretty brutal, actually. So, yeah: they don’t support our chip, they’re not interested in supporting our chip, they’ve been quite vocal about trying to stop us from saying Ubuntu, so we stopped saying Ubuntu."

Further reading: http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/fea.....veals-all/

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:35 am
by error404
riFFraFF said:


Xubuntu runs quite well on Intel machines with 256MB, even to the extent of editing movies. Been there, done that.  I'm sure it would be quite acceptable on RasPi if they bothered to port current version to ARM v6. Trouble is, except for RasPi, that's all Android territory.


Xubuntu/Lubuntu/*untu isn't really what Canonical is about though. They're not going to maintain a whole architecture port and the associated autobuild and testing system for something that isn't even their product. Nobody's going to stop some motivated party from porting it, but it doesn't fit Canonical's goals, so they're not going to do it (and maintain it) for nothing. Doubt they'd stop anyone from creating a Pubuntu (hehe), and it's probably not that big a job (relatively) considering the ARM port of Debian is quite mature.

Don't really see the point though. We've got Debian. Ubuntu is just Debian with a more complete default install and a release schedule. hardfp would be nice, but I don't think it'll make too much different for most things, and it'll probably come.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:47 am
by hayesey

Good argument that all the arm 7 boards together haven"t sold as many as the RPi did in one day


This argument is incorrect.  There are more devices with ARMv7 chips in them in existence right now than RasPi will ever sell for it's entire product lifetime.

If you are only thinking about development boards then you are missing the full picture.

Ubuntu wants to get onto non-desktop devices.  This means tablets, phones, "smart" TVs etc..etc… with this goal in mind, an ARMv6 port is a waste of resources.  This market will be FAR bigger than the RasPi market.

I think if these people want Ubuntu on RasPi so badly they should stop complaining on forums and start doing some compiling.  The learning process this will involve is the point of RasPi!

Meanwhile, I'd far rather run a more lightweight distribution on my RasPi when it arrives.

That's my view point anyway, as someone who runs Ubuntu on desktops and laptops.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:14 am
by jamesh
If you really want Ubuntu on a small form factor device, the Cotton Candy could run it.

Or wait for a Raspi upgrade to a SoC that supports Ubuntu, but that could be a long wait. No, I have no knowledge of future Raspi versions, just making assumptions given the roadmap of Arm devices out there.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:54 am
by RaTTuS
;-p

RPi C 1Gb Arm7 Dual Nic etc...

I'll get me coat

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:52 am
by iamjohnbenson
I think that, although an untu may not have worked at blistering speeds, that they may have missed an opportunity here... The way things are going, the RasPi will be many people's first experience of Linux, even if it's just lurking underneath and running XBMC. The realisation an operating system exists that is easy to use and free could well open up a whole new market of users when they realise that linux is no longer the preserve of the scary blinking CLI cursor...

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:58 am
by JoeDaStudd
Its a shame a striped down version of the UNR (now discontinued) would have been ideal for schools and developing worlds.

Simple interface and it ran using stock settings on 512mb well, so with a little tweaking it would have been spot on.

On well looks like Canonical either underestimated the Raspberry Pi or are too blinkered to see the market for it.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:12 pm
by Montekuri
hayesey said:


I think if these people want Ubuntu on RasPi so badly they should stop complaining on forums and start doing some compiling.  The learning process this will involve is the point of RasPi!



I like this phrase

Stop complaining

Start compiling

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:32 pm
by steviewevie
iamjohnbenson said:


I think that, although an untu may not have worked at blistering speeds, that they may have missed an opportunity here... The way things are going, the RasPi will be many people's first experience of Linux, even if it's just lurking underneath and running XBMC. The realisation an operating system exists that is easy to use and free could well open up a whole new market of users when they realise that linux is no longer the preserve of the scary blinking CLI cursor...


Yup, my thoughts exactly. If the Raspi gets into schools in a big way, the student's first exposure to Linux is likely to be Fedora or Debian (or one of the other distros). Not Ubuntu. Do Canonical realise what they could be missing ?

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:11 pm
by mkeeley
hayesey said:



Good argument that all the arm 7 boards together haven"t sold as many as the RPi did in one day


This argument is incorrect.  There are more devices with ARMv7 chips in them in existence right now than RasPi will ever sell for it"s entire product lifetime.

If you are only thinking about development boards then you are missing the full picture.

Ubuntu wants to get onto non-desktop devices.  This means tablets, phones, "smart" TVs etc..etc… with this goal in mind, an ARMv6 port is a waste of resources.  This market will be FAR bigger than the RasPi market.

I think if these people want Ubuntu on RasPi so badly they should stop complaining on forums and start doing some compiling.  The learning process this will involve is the point of RasPi!

Meanwhile, I"d far rather run a more lightweight distribution on my RasPi when it arrives.

That's my view point anyway, as someone who runs Ubuntu on desktops and laptops.


Surprisingly I did know that arm 7 runs on things other than development boards! But most aren't designed for end users. As boards go I think it's quite probably correct to say that RPi has sold more than all them together and in a single day. As you say they WANT to get in to smart TV's etc. but they're not there yet. I would have thought RPi would have been a good opportunity to introduce many, many first time linux users to their product.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:16 pm
by error404
There's no point introducing people to your product if the experience is going to be crap. Then all you're doing is making your product look bad.

Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:22 pm
by hayesey

Surprisingly I did know that arm 7 runs on things other than development boards! But most aren't designed for end users


I'm not really sure I understand what you mean there.  I read that as armv7 devices arent aimed at end users, but I'm sure that's not what you mean

I'm just not convinced that Ubuntu is a good fit for a Pi.