Smartybones
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:36 pm

error404 said:


There's no point introducing people to your product if the experience is going to be crap. Then all you're doing is making your product look bad.



I have to agree with this...

canonical have there own business to deal with, and if working with any company is going to be damaging to how the product looks then you have to cut ties.

If canonical felt like they were being pressurised into porting a version to accommodate the RPi, then they would likely do a poor job of it, so poor that the raspberry foundation would not want it near the product.

gritz
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:53 pm

I think that Canonical's pov is that they are in the business of building plug and play operating systems for current and future consumer devices. Nothing wrong with that - it's a potentially massive market.

Too much choice isn't necessarily a good thing. It encourages niches and also causes a lot of duplication of effort. I think that a small but focussed suite of tools is a good thing in this case.

Myself and Ubuntu have recently parted btw, irreconcilable differences...

dh04000
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:44 pm

Ubuntu is not Debian.

Debian is the universal OS, thier goal is to work on any platform. Becuase of this, they have no one goal, or direction. That's not a bad thing, that is what makes Debian a universal OS. Ubuntu on the other hand does have a desired direction, into the desktop, the TV, and smart phones. Again, thats not a bad thing, its what makes Ubuntu the catalyst for bring non-techies into linux it has been.

We need to ask ourselfs, does Ubuntu meet what the R-Pi community wants, an open platform that is designed to be open to everyone's different ideas and directions? I don't think it does. Debian is closer to this project goals and considering debian and ubuntu packages are nearly identical in packages, I don't see why we're even having this conversation.

PS: These are my opinions. Shallow with a spoonful of sugar.

thetechy
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:57 pm

I have been a long time Ubuntu user (since 2006) and to be honest, I am a bit confused with some of the decisions that Canonical have made recently. Anyone following the news about RPi would have know this was going to be a HUGE event.

Mark Shuttleworth's #1 bug is "Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace. This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix"

What better way to fix this "bug" than get hundreds of thousands of users using a light version of Ubuntu. RPi has been on the radar of many people, myself included for quite a while.

gritz
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:57 pm

thetechy said:


I have been a long time Ubuntu user (since 2006) and to be honest, I am a bit confused with some of the decisions that Canonical have made recently. Anyone following the news about RPi would have know this was going to be a HUGE event.

Mark Shuttleworth's #1 bug is "Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace. This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix"

What better way to fix this "bug" than get hundreds of thousands of users using a light version of Ubuntu. RPi has been on the radar of many people, myself included for quite a while.



Yeah, but kids wouldn't be using Ubuntu in any noticeable way. All they'd see is a boot screen before they opened up whatever environment they'd be using for coding. A seriously cut down desktop disro of Ubuntu just isn't an effective advertisment for the direction that they are going in imo. I can't see advanced users wanting it either.

oninoshiko
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:43 am

gritz said:


Yeah, but kids wouldn't be using Ubuntu in any noticeable way. All they'd see is a boot screen before they opened up whatever environment they'd be using for coding. A seriously cut down desktop disro of Ubuntu just isn't an effective advertisment for the direction that they are going in imo. I can't see advanced users wanting it either.


I respectfully disagree. One of the largest walls to linux deployment on the desktop world is the idea that it's harder then windows. I don't think I buy this idea. I think it's just a matter of experence.

Maybe true, maybe not. I'm a sys admin, so I might have too much experence with different systems to properly judge this.

gritz
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:43 am

Disagree away oninoshiko - it's always good to get involved in a discussion, rather than put a post out into the wild and watch it sink without trace!

My point was that the Pi (especially in it's eventual educational environment) is a mile away from the road that Canonical is taking and developing a super-low fat distro when the kids will be spending most of their time coding rather than "enjoying a rich user interface experience" (or similar ad-men speak) is probably low on their list of priorities.

I agree 100% with you on the public misconception about Linux being "hard". It does have a lot of geek associations though and there are sections of the community who seem to revel in it's exclusivity, rather than do the outreach thing. If Joe Average Newbie has a problem with their Linux tryout they want support, but if they log onto a forum to be told "Open terminal and type xyz..." then they'll likely go back to their old OS with it's familiar drop down menus and tickboxes. It's easy to forget that most people aren't geeks - they just want stuff to work. Their computer is a means to an end. The OS should be absolutely invisible because all they want to do is surf / listen to their music collection / write a spreadsheet etc. I guess that this is the path that Canonical are taking. Perhaps with this in mind they'll eventually want to disassociate themselves from the (rather unfair) image that the public has about Linux. To be honest I'm not sure what percentage of the population even has a view on Linux at all, or even knows much about it...

It's also possible that some people look down upon stuff that's free. Surely it can't be as good as the expensive stuff, right?

On a more philosophical note I think that the lack of commercial imperative holds back development. Absolute heresy of course, but look how far those data-miners at Google have come with Android in such a short space of time.

And on that depressing thought I'll stop derailing this thread.

oninoshiko
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:24 am


gritz said:

My point was that the Pi (especially in it's eventual educational environment) is a mile away from the road that Canonical is taking and developing a super-low fat distro when the kids will be spending most of their time coding rather than "enjoying a rich user interface experience" (or similar ad-men speak) is probably low on their list of priorities.


My point is that it SHOUDLN'T be. Just exposing lots of kids to it, will long term influence them. "oh Linux. I used that in school. It's easy enough" Seperating the OS from the stigma is what they need to do to seriously be successful. That is all about education. This doesn't solve the problem in the short term, it's a long-term view.


I agree 100% with you on the public misconception about Linux being "hard". It does have a lot of geek associations though and there are sections of the community who seem to revel in it's exclusivity, rather than do the outreach thing. If Joe Average Newbie has a problem with their Linux tryout they want support, but if they log onto a forum to be told "Open terminal and type xyz..." then they'll likely go back to their old OS with it's familiar drop down menus and tickboxes. It's easy to forget that most people aren't geeks - they just want stuff to work. Their computer is a means to an end. The OS should be absolutely invisible because all they want to do is surf / listen to their music collection / write a spreadsheet etc. I guess that this is the path that Canonical are taking. Perhaps with this in mind they'll eventually want to disassociate themselves from the (rather unfair) image that the public has about Linux. To be honest I'm not sure what percentage of the population even has a view on Linux at all, or even knows much about it...


Windows is "invisable" because people use it so much that they don't think about it. It has nothing to do with design. Think about it, what happened when they changed to the "ribbon interface" there was a huge outcry, then people got used to it, and for most it's ok enough. Same thing will happen with "Metro." The key to breaking this barrier down is getting people useing in and not afraid of it.


It's also possible that some people look down upon stuff that's free. Surely it can't be as good as the expensive stuff, right?


There is truth in this. Also there is truth in the desire for someone to call for support, not that it's always rational. (most people have never called MS for support. I have. They suck.)


On a more philosophical note I think that the lack of commercial imperative holds back development. Absolute heresy of course, but look how far those data-miners at Google have come with Android in such a short space of time.


Conical is one of the few companies to try an push the commecial imperitive (atleast recently, there used to be more).  I just think they take some really bizzare directions somtimes. (This, Unity...)


And on that depressing thought I'll stop derailing this thread.


My intrest in this is mostly acedemic, really. The only linux setup I have at the moment is really only there because it was the fastest way to get a cross-compiler setup working. Personally there are other platforms I am more interested in, and even for them I do not particularly care if the mainstream population uses them.  As long as I can use them on my kit, I am happy. (I would make a really bad evangalist.)

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Jessie
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:45 am

I"m going to go ahead and disagree that Linux isn"t a pita. You guys use it every day, and are familure with it. There is a learning curve, and the OS still isn"t user friendly enough. I haven"t tried Ubuntu yet but most distros are too far away from that plug in and work exp that Mac OSX and Win7 provide. Last night I installed Samba and miniDLNA on my NAS through the CLI, how many users out there even know how to use the CLI? If either were a product ment for OSX or 7 they would have prompted the user for some settings and what not. Neither of these products ask me where my data is or what dirve to use. The user has to know where the *.conf files are and how to edit them. This is no problem when you know where the files are, but for the average user who grew up in the GUI generation it would be a deal breaker. I personally find the CLI easy, but I started using computers when MS DOS 5.0 was fresh. In-fact I tried using a script and an web interface to install samba and miniDLNA first and for me it was harder to do it that way than just to git the files and edit the .conf files. My point is that if you use Linux even on a limited basis then you have no idea how hard it is for the user to get used to it and how nerd-centric it is.

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riffraff
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:45 am

error404 said:

Don't really see the point though. We've got Debian. Ubuntu is just Debian with a more complete default install and a release schedule. hardfp would be nice, but I don't think it'll make too much different for most things, and it'll probably come.
Only a matter of filling in the gaps, I suppose. Do you think a community of - oh say 100K+ enthusiasts  - would be capable of doing that?

gritz
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:56 am

Hi oninoshiko. I'm having a little trouble with formatting quotes properly (must be a Windows thing!!!) so forgive any disjointed replies.

I'm a hopeless evangelist too- if something's working well for someone, then why beat on them? To be honest I'm far more likely to be converted myself.

I hear you on the support thing- I've never had need to call MS, but their knowledge base articles are so cryptic and unhelpful that I can imagine their live support isn't up to much either. However, because Windows is so ubiquitous a quick internet search always turns up a fix that's written in plain English. There are fewer of these resources for the Linux newbie (it's kind of a catch-22).

Finally - the kids will be exposed to Linux via the Pi - it just won't be Ubuntu! I know that this link has been passed around on the forum already, but if you've not seen it then it's the nearest we have to a "straight from the horse's mouth" take on Canonical's position.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/848154

error404
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:56 am

Jessie said:


I"m going to go ahead and disagree that Linux isn"t a pita. You guys use it every day, and are familure with it. There is a learning curve, and the OS still isn"t user friendly enough.


There are kind of two points here, one I agree with and one I don"t. As far as the software itself is concerned, the main barrier is the learning curve. But not that it"s too steep or difficult, just that it"s there and visible. Windows moves slowly enough that people don"t notice they"re learning as Microsoft changes things – or just put up with it because it"s what they"ve always done. I don"t agree that it"s a PITA for the things people who don"t know anything about Windows use their computers for.

I don't think it's any different than a lifelong Windows user switching to OSX, if you cut out Apple's brilliant brainwashing. It's very different, some things will be frustrating and difficult, and you need to adjust your perception of how the computer should work a bit (well, a lot, if we're talking about OSX).

As far as "plug in and work", I don"t know what distros you"ve been using, but these days most new hardware will, in fact, be "plug in and work". Might not work as you"ve grown to expect on another OS, but that"s a different thing.


Last night I installed Samba and miniDLNA on my NAS through the CLI, how many users out there even know how to use the CLI?


Both of these things are trivial to set up in Ubuntu and most distros that care about user friendliness. And they don"t involve CLI. They don"t involve randomly searching the web for applications and downloading malware and toolbar ridden crapware either. Go to Ubuntu Software Centre, search for "DLNA" and install the first option (Rygel). Comes with a GUI config tool. For Samba, search for "Samba" and install it. Comes with a GUI config tool.

As far as install location – let the package manager deal with this. The way it"s handled in Linux is different, not a problem. In fact, I"d say this (proper unified package management) is one of the biggest and most important things that Linux has to offer.

I get the notion that you haven't actually sat down and seriously used a consumer-oriented Linux for a while in a long time, or ever. Go download Ubuntu or Mint or SuSE (or probably Fedora, but I haven't touched RedHat-based stuff in a decade) and give them a try. I think you'll be surprised.

Anyway, on topic. Yes, Canonical could pare down Ubuntu and release a special Raspberry Pi edition. But what"s the value in this? It teaches people to use something that"s not Ubuntu. It gets users thinking Ubuntu when what they"re really using is a half-cocked version of it they"ve cooked up to fit in the hardware. And it"s not going to be the same as what they use when they install Ubuntu on their desktop, which is probably worse than them never having touched Ubuntu at all before installing it there.

It just doesn"t make sense. Maybe in a couple years when the cheap hardware that"s available is powerful enough to run the same OS as you"d run on any other machine, but for now all it would do is dilute their brand with a different and (in their eyes at least) inferior product.

SimplyRyan
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:12 am

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but while ARMv6 may not be officially supported, it most certainly can work. I have installed Ubuntu on my LG Optimus T which has a 600Mhz ARMv6 processor, and Ubuntu runs just fine. I have half a mind to do a little digging and find that ARMv6 Ubuntu image and take a crack at installing it on the Pi.

permaband
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:09 pm

Ubuntu is just dumbed down debian. Rasbian is focussed entirely on the pi, whats the point of pining after another debian based distro?

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abishur
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:46 pm

permaband wrote:Ubuntu is just dumbed down debian. Rasbian is focussed entirely on the pi, whats the point of pining after another debian based distro?
Personal preference?
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

Joe Schmoe
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:40 pm

Desire to see a familiar brand name?
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Jim Manley
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 pm

SimplyRy[list=][/list]an wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here, but while ARMv6 may not be officially supported, it most certainly can work.
The latest version of Ubuntu that will run on the Pi is 9.0.4, IIRC. The current version of Ubuntu is 12.04. So, not only would you be three major versions behind in functionality, but, also behind in bug fixes, including security fixes, which is not a great idea. It also means you'll be limited to downloading and updating packages that are compatible with that older version, and errors may occur where newer, incompatible versions of some software may be installed that won't run or may even cause problems, which is not what you want for newbies for whom Ubuntu is designed. If you know what you're doing, that's fine, but, that won't be the case for less sophisticated users.
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- W.B. Yeats
In theory, theory & practice are the same - in practice, they aren't!!!

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RichardUK
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Re: the lack of ubuntu on the RPi and canonicals POV

Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:52 pm

As with the guys that ported ICS to the RPi, why don't you, if you really want it, port Ubuntu 12.04? I maybe wrong, but is it not all open source? It's not an easy task, it's not a quick job, but if the source is there it can be done. Is it not one of the corner stones of Linux, if you don't find a distro you like, make your own?

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