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Re: Model A price point

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:11 pm
by mikerr
texy wrote: ...but was it ordered on its own, and where did you order it from?
The screenshot filename said farnell, and the PSU sent it over the £20 threshold for free delivery.
As mentioned you can buy a single order of a Model A with free shipping from CPC (this week).

Why all the fuss over getting free shipping on a single unit though ?

It's rare for any company to give free shipping on low value orders - it does cost them money to post after all.

The tagline doesn't say "A computer for $25 hand delivered to your door" does it ?

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:15 pm
by pluggy
Yes I got it from Farnell. I can't honestly see them making money on single Pi's, Next Day UPS delivery can't be cheap, especially if they put the stuff on back-order on UPS when it arrives. I just added the PSU and lead to get over the £20 minimum order.

The top of the invoice had my details as well as Farnell's so I cropped it.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:18 pm
by texy
mikerr wrote:
texy wrote: ...but was it ordered on its own, and where did you order it from?
The screenshot filename said farnell, and the PSU sent it over the £20 threshold for free delivery.
As mentioned you can buy a single order of a Model A with free shipping from CPC (this week).

Why all the fuss over getting free shipping on a single unit though ?

It's rare for any company to give free shipping on low value orders - it does cost them money to post after all.

The tagline doesn't say "A computer for $25 hand delivered to your door" does it ?

Sorry that question was aimed at Pluggy - my work's internet blocked the image, so I could see the details - but I can now ;-)

Texy

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:51 pm
by poing
I got word back from Farnell.

They explain in a somewhat complicated manner that the difference is because I ordered a new item as a business rather than as a consumer, so their...
first break sell prices typically include an allowance for the additional handling and packaging requirements for very small volumes.


Indeed, if I follow their link to the consumer site I can order multiple Model A's with being charged only once for shipping:

If I order one I'm charged UKP 19.29 + 9.95 = UKP 29.24 = €33.92 = $45.95.
If I order for more than UKP 75 I get free shipping so for four boards I pay UKP 77.17 = €89.52 = $121.27.
If I devide by 4 and remove the VAT I get 77.17 / 4 / 121 * 100 = UKP 15.94 = $25.05

They conclude with:
However, in light of your feedback, we will review the pricing structure we have in place on the trade website to ensure it meets the needs of our trade account customers.
:shock:

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:41 pm
by adlambert
The instructions for the WEBFREE free delivery offer is in huge bold capital letters in a banner on the right hand side of the CPC Model A order page. Its says: "FREE DELIVERY: TYPE THE WORDS WEBFREE IN ORDER COMMENTS BOX" Until Friday 8th Feb.

It's bright red and blue and is about half the screen height.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:29 pm
by pygmy_giant
And then after today the distributor will be charging disproportionately for distributing despite (presumably) the distribution costs being built into the $25 price point advertsed in the statement "An Arm GNU/Linux Box for $25 - take a byte" which has appeared at the top of this website for about a year.

In my view if this $25 does not include distribution costs it should read 'An Arm GNU/Linux Box for $25 plus distribution costs' in order not to be misleading.

In fact - it does also run many other OSes and has no case, so should really read:

'An Arm board for $25 plus distribution costs - take a byte'.

But hey - why let accuracy stand in the way of a catchy strap line.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:18 am
by jamesh
pygmy_giant wrote:And then after today the distributor will be charging disproportionately for distributing despite (presumably) the distribution costs being built into the $25 price point advertsed in the statement "An Arm GNU/Linux Box for $25 - take a byte" which has appeared at the top of this website for about a year.

In my view if this $25 does not include distribution costs it should read 'An Arm GNU/Linux Box for $25 plus distribution costs' in order not to be misleading.

In fact - it does also run many other OSes and has no case, so should really read:

'An Arm board for $25 plus distribution costs - take a byte'.

But hey - why let accuracy stand in the way of a catchy strap line.
Rubbish. It's always been '$25 PLUS p&p and tax' and that's what it should be. Farnell have been informed of inconsistencies here. There should be some action soon.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:10 pm
by pygmy_giant
Not so. If I hover my mouse over the tab at the top of the browser it says 'Raspberry Pi An Arm GNU/Linux box for $25. Take a byte.' no mention of P&P.

Try it yourself.

Infact it has said that for a whole year - even when the only model available was $35 (+P&P).

I understand all the points made, but my point is that the distribution charges seem quite arbitrary and the Pi has aways been intended as being available soley through a distributor and as far as I can tell there is no way of avaoiding this strangely related distribution charges.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:13 pm
by mikerr
The pi is sold internationally with different taxes and postage applied depending on end user location.
$25 is the base price - and in fact the only constant.

[edited out "insult" - sorry]

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:17 pm
by pygmy_giant
Eh?

I am being serious.

I think the Pi is great and well worth the money - all I'm saying is that it seems that the distribution 'charges' are bonkers and unavoidable.

It is good that the foundation is trying to get some uniformity. I understand that they are bound by many contractural things I don't understand and are operating in good faith, but for a product that is only available through a distributor and not off the shelf there should, to my mind be transparency and proportionality in the distribution.

It seems to me that the distributors are making some profit through the $25 advertised by the Foundation and so I would have hoped that they would have some sort of transparency about the 'P&P'.

I accept that other people might have different opinions, but I dont appreciate personal insults.

It seems to me that the distribution charges don't depend on end user location and that james is highlighting this to Farnell.

If you are going to call something a 'charge' it should be proportional to the goods/services provided - not double for you because you bought a little, and nothing for you because you bought alot, and a little for you because you live in the UK, and way way more for you because you live in another nearby European country.

If farnell is varying/exempting these 'charges' in order to to try to encourage me to buy something sooner or in greater quantity than I would otherwise be inclined to do, it is plainly not a 'charge'.

Maybe its my personality, and partly because I live on a tight budget, but I for one don't like that.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:53 pm
by pygmy_giant
Maybe its my personality, and partly because I live on a tight budget, but I for one don't like that.

Once I was desperate for a job and landed one with a telecoms company. They installed telephone call tracking devices in hotels. These monitored call traffic to and from the hotel rooms and provided the hotel owners with a printed report at the end of the month. This enabled the hotelier to maximise their income by adjusting the tarriff to international / mobile / landline numbers.

Fortunately that company went bust and I got another job.

Just call it a 'fee' if you are going to do that sort of carry on.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:01 pm
by Jim JKla
I can see where you are comming from being on a tight budget myself.

I could understand a supplier optimising distribution charges on the basis that if you had two or three going to one address then only having one shipping charge for 1,2 or 3 and then a sliding scale with a big multi-buy discount but as has already been mentioned at present the punter buying one appears to subsidising those buying a few.

That feels inherintly wrong.

I doubt we will be able to make Farnell or RS change their position/policy.

The RPi is a good product the core price point is valid and fair.

It does not stop the distribution and shipping from feeling wrong.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:06 pm
by alexeames
Surely if you don't like the charging structure a company sets up, you buy from another one? It's called "competition keeps you honest". There are lots of places you can buy a Pi from. One of them is Maplin. Then you've got Modmypi, SK Pang, and a whole bunch of others.

It's quite likely that Farnell Netherlands made a mistake. Have you got any idea how hard it is to synchronise policy on every national sub-site of a multi-national corporation? I haven't either :lol: , but I'm sure it's a lot harder than whinging in forums. :D

And why the heck shouldn't us Brits get a break for a British designed and made product? Pretty much everything you buy from America costs the same in pounds as it does in dollars over there and there's ~$1.62 to the pound. There's not much made over here now, but I hope that will change.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:11 pm
by jamesh
pygmy_giant wrote:Not so. If I hover my mouse over the tab at the top of the browser it says 'Raspberry Pi An Arm GNU/Linux box for $25. Take a byte.' no mention of P&P.

Try it yourself.

Infact it has said that for a whole year - even when the only model available was $35 (+P&P).

I understand all the points made, but my point is that the distribution charges seem quite arbitrary and the Pi has aways been intended as being available soley through a distributor and as far as I can tell there is no way of avaoiding this strangely related distribution charges.
This was first mentioned about a year ago, so not sure why it has suddenly becomes an issue to you. The Foundation has always been exceptionally clear about the costs being plus tax and P&P. In fact giving a price prior to adding tax and P&P is the ONLY way of doing it since tax and P&p vary according to location, so there isn't "one price to rule them all and in the darkness bind them"

The Foundation does not set the P&P charges levied by distributors, but it does set the base price ($25/35), and does keep in touch with the distributors to try and ensure P&P charges are appropriate.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:33 pm
by Jim JKla
It's probably suddenly become an issue because the "A" has suddenly become available. ;)

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:40 pm
by Mortimer
I think the main difficulty seems to be getting to understand that for a given product, the P&P per item goes DOWN for larger quantities. The biggest cost in any goods out department is labour, and will be including in the P&P charge, as it is part of the cost of packaging. The packages don't fill and seal themselves you know, so any ideas that P&P is paper, some cellotape and a stamp is nonsense, SOMEONE has to do the task. It will not take ten times longer time to package 10 Raspberry Pis for one customer than it does to package one Raspberry Pi for a different customer. I would expect the labour element of the packing process to be very similar in each case, for the customer buying more products, the cost is spread over more items.

No amount of whining is going to change this, it is a fact for any business involved in mailing out goods. Accounting for the costs of P&P could be a very complex exercise, and I have come across some online retailers that try to do this, taking account of item weight and size as well as delivery time scales and destination distance. OK you might get a more tailored P&P charge, but you tend not to know what the P&P will be until much later in the buying process, which is too late for a lot of prospective purchasers, especially when they are shopping around with a long list of items to purchase. So retailers come up with far simpler schemes that can be quoted up front. The consequence here, is that the pricing structures, being so much simpler, will disadvantage some customers with certain buying habits.

This is not new, it is not unique to the Raspberry Pi, and certainly not the fault of the Raspberry Pi foundation, in fact they try and help. I and many others understand that the Raspberry Pi costs $25, but other fees will be due, to cover taxes and P&P. I really can't see the issue, and I find it hard to imagine that everyone needs to be told that they might have to pay some delivery charges in a strap line that simply aims to highlight to low cost of the Raspberry Pi.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:59 am
by pygmy_giant
Although I understand that there are economies of scale the p&p does not go down to 0 for an order over x amount.

This shows that the P&P charges aren't really P&P charges, and suggests that the distributor profits from a proportion of the $25.

The price doesnt really bother me as its still good value for money - what bothers me is distributors making up 'charges' and pretending they relate to actual things in the real world that they obviously don't.

If the distributors only profited from the P&P I wouldn't mind so much, but if they are already getting a cut of that $25 then thats just taking the biscuit.

As an example - I created a website for a shop in town for someone who made and sold cosmetics; bathbombs etc. Everything they sold they made. When I coded the website and CMS I added a facility for them to chose the p&p amount to add to their products at checkout. This is fair enough as that is an additional cost to them which a customer can avoid if they walk in and buy something off the shelf in person.

Not so with certain Pi distributors.

Correct me if im wrong, but the foundation sets the base price and the distributor gets an undisclosed proportion of that.

Fine - we've all got to make a living, and stuff costs money.

The distributor is then presumably free under the licence to add P&P on top, and even add an additional profit margin to that P&P.

Also fine, as distribution is their business after all.

But that does not seem to be whats happening - some people don't pay P&P at all and others pay over the odds for the delivery distance covered.

Its dishonest and hard to avoid as you can't as yet buy a Pi off the shelf.

Thats what annoys me - not the actual price as such.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:15 am
by pygmy_giant
This price manipulation is seems intended to maximise sales - its not a a reflection of the service provided.

It bothers me now as I want to buy another Pi - but It doesn't bother me that much though as its still good value for money.

still pants though.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:39 am
by stubright
I bought both my Pis from Farnell because I bought them separately and it worked out a bit cheaper than RS. If you buy more than one Pi at the same time then RS is the place to get them, as they do charge $25ish ($25.81 to be exact) for the Model A and $35 for Model B, both prices ex vat and delivery. They also appear to only charge one P&P fee of £4.95 regardless of the size of the order.

Farnell's prices appear to depend on which one of their many sites you use, which is a bit crap.
Stu

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:07 am
by jamesh
pygmy_giant wrote:Although I understand that there are economies of scale the p&p does not go down to 0 for an order over x amount.

This shows that the P&P charges aren't really P&P charges, and suggests that the distributor profits from a proportion of the $25.

The price doesnt really bother me as its still good value for money - what bothers me is distributors making up 'charges' and pretending they relate to actual things in the real world that they obviously don't.

If the distributors only profited from the P&P I wouldn't mind so much, but if they are already getting a cut of that $25 then thats just taking the biscuit.

As an example - I created a website for a shop in town for someone who made and sold cosmetics; bathbombs etc. Everything they sold they made. When I coded the website and CMS I added a facility for them to chose the p&p amount to add to their products at checkout. This is fair enough as that is an additional cost to them which a customer can avoid if they walk in and buy something off the shelf in person.

Not so with certain Pi distributors.

Correct me if im wrong, but the foundation sets the base price and the distributor gets an undisclosed proportion of that.

Fine - we've all got to make a living, and stuff costs money.

The distributor is then presumably free under the licence to add P&P on top, and even add an additional profit margin to that P&P.

Also fine, as distribution is their business after all.

But that does not seem to be whats happening - some people don't pay P&P at all and others pay over the odds for the delivery distance covered.

Its dishonest and hard to avoid as you can't as yet buy a Pi off the shelf.

Thats what annoys me - not the actual price as such.
I really don't know why you are picking on Raspi distribution like this - almost EVERY SINGLE DISTRIBUTOR OF EVER SINGLE PRODUCT does something similar. It just THE WAY IT IS...

Now if someone is overcharging for P&P for ther Raspi, the distributors are told and usually do something about it. But market forces should mean those that over charge don't sell as many.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:38 pm
by pygmy_giant
I really don't know why you are picking on Raspi distribution like this
I'm not - things like this annoy me all the time. I don't like the thought of people adding to the base price by slight of hand, especially as the Foundation is a charity.
- almost EVERY SINGLE DISTRIBUTOR OF EVER SINGLE PRODUCT does something similar. It just THE WAY IT IS...
Not everyone, and that doesn't make it right.
Now if someone is overcharging for P&P for ther Raspi, the distributors are told and usually do something about it.
Good to see you're on top of it.
But market forces should mean those that over charge don't sell as many.
In theory, but if sneaky tactics weren't partly successful they wouldn't try it on in the first place. They won't get my custom. I get the buyer beware freedom of choice argument but its hard to choose and beware when things are confusing.

stu said:
Farnell's prices appear to depend on which one of their many sites you use, which is a bit crap.
Thats probably whats got my hackles up - i expect its probably just mis-coordination.

Like I said its well worth the money anyway, its no big deal.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:01 am
by adlambert
I think I have some sympathy with the pygmy_giant view, when I ordered the A from CPC the free shipping with 5.95 handling felt like a bit of an insult to the intelligence. Had it not been for the WEBFREE promotion I would not have purchased.

£5.95 is a ridiculous charge for a tiny lightweight light box that was shipped in a non padded polythene slip bag and consequently arrived with the Pi box crushed out of shape. It was very quick arriving, but nonetheless....

Having said that, we are all used to seeing low marked prices and free shipping on sites like Amazon. Maybe we are all spoiled now and it is us that are enjoying the benefit of tax avoidance.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:36 pm
by alexeames
Bottom line for any online sale is you usually have to get the point of entering card details before you know what the final price is.

And then if you don't like it, don't continue. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the product.

I bought a model A from Farnell and it meant I had a choice to make. Since it was under the £20 free postage limit, I could either spend £4.95 on delivery or spend a similar amount on other goods and get free delivery. It's pretty obvious that I chose the latter - I'm always up for a "more for less" deal. It's also pretty obvious that they don't really want our under £20 orders, and that's fair enough.

Anyone bought an airline ticket from the likes of Ryanair? With all the additions and surcharges, your 30 quid flight used to end up costing £100 if you dared do anything so outrageous as take a bag with you.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:27 pm
by pluggy
Since no-one is holding a gun to your head, just don't buy one if you don't like carriage and taxes.

The second is one of the only two certainties in life in any case.

Re: Model A price point

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:42 pm
by Jim JKla
pluggy wrote:Since no-one is holding a gun to your head, just don't buy one if you don't like carriage and taxes.

The second is one of the only two certainties in life in any case.
Death only comes once so the gun to the head is quite a poinient analogy. ;)