tpeyruse
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Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:19 pm

Hello,

Ecological footprint of numeric systems is a big issue to address and I think Raspberry Pi is a good lab to find out some results.

Is there a study about ecological footprint of a rasp card ? Its production ?

Thank you.

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scruss
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:19 am

I think it would be good to have a lifetime environmental footprint statement/report for the Raspberry Pi — not to mention for all consumer products. All part of Extended Producer Responsibility, something manufacturers should get on now before they have it forced on them.

It already has a RoHS statement, it also should have a statement for the 3TG conflict metals.
Recyclability?
Lifetime FLOPS/Watt?
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wolf.z
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:32 am

Heater wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:47 pm
Don't be absurd. I think we can immediately assume the Pi represents approximately 0.00000000000001% of the damage that the human race is doing to the ecology we live in. If you want to tackle ecological problems we have many that are far, far bigger.
Well, this kind of thinking definitely is part of the problem we are facing. Every single piece of somewhat is no problem at all.
tpeyruse just wanted to know, if there is data about the energy available, that is needed to build a Pi. It was not meant to ban Pis. Do not underestimate the unforgiving effort in means of energy, spent for clean room environments' needs for producing some ten Nanometer wide chip structures.
A computer needs tons of coal equivalent for production. The internet as a whole is expected to consume up to 20% of all the world's electric power by 2025 thru 2030.
I expect the Raspberry to show a rather low-energy profile.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:36 am

It's not just energy. The chemicals used in production. The waste materials during assembly. The toxic fumes from soldering and other processes.

Then there's the mining for raw materials.

And what about when the Pi is destroyed - they're designed to be thrown away.


I would think a single Pi has a big polluting impact on our environment, times 30 million or so, and that's a lot of pollution.
The OP probably is interested in comparing that to more conventional products.
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:27 am

wolf.z

Your post is very confused.

You started by quoting me and saying "this kind of thinking definitely is part of the problem we are facing...". Which definitely sounds like you are disagreeing with me.

But you concluded by saying "I expect the Raspberry to show a rather low-energy profile." Which is basically agreeing with me.

So which is it?
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Heater
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:44 am

Imperf3kt,
I would think a single Pi has a big polluting impact on our environment, times 30 million or so, and that's a lot of pollution.
Which is a drop in the ocean compared to the 1.5 billion smart phones built every year. Most of which end up in the land fill after a year or two.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/742 ... on-volume/

Or the 250 million TVs made every year:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/461 ... nit-sales/

Or the 100 million PC and laptops, every year:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/272 ... sktop-pcs/

I expect that the quantity of carrots I eat every year to have a far bigger impact on energy consumption and damage to the environment than the amount of Raspberry Pi I get through. What with all that energy consumed on the farm, in transport, in the shop that sells them, by my refrigerator, by my cooking... Not to mention all the fertilizers and pesticides used.

Let's have a sense of proportion here.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

echmain
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:59 am

And think about all the jobs created by those industries.

Oops, not supposed to talk about it from that angle.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:10 am

Heater, I mentioned the word compare.
Why do you think I mentioned that word?
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:14 am

And what about when the Pi is destroyed - they're designed to be thrown away.
I never throw my Pi's away, but if I did we have an electronic waste disposal procedure.

And I am pretty sure Pi's are designed to work for a very long time.
I have a model A that still works 7 years after being installed.
Much lower footprint than the ATX PC it replaced.
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LTolledo
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:24 am

In that case.... am more interested in human's ecological footprint.... :mrgreen:
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:58 am

In that case.... am more interested in human's ecological footprint....
I am trying to learn AI so my Pi's can clean up after my kid.
If that works they can cleanup the planet.

Ok, just added tree planting robot to my to do list, going to call it WALL-E.
Have not tested OpenCV and audio on my Pi4 's yet, should be pretty good?

Wonder if I can make one of these for home. I make about 6.5KW/hr/day
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0218313249
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:29 am

echmain wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:29 am
Sheesh, what’s next...a gluten-free Pi?
I think we already have that.

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:42 am

This is a perfectly valid question. Some of the subsequent posts have been deleted as unnecessarily harsh. Keep to the topic, and keep it polite.
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:20 am

Imperf3kt,
I mentioned the word compare....Why do you think I mentioned that word?
Exactly. That is why I offered a list of things to compare against. And that is only the tip of the iceberg.

I think that to a first order approximation there are some simple measurements we can all do to evaluate and compare the energy consumed in the manufacture of a products and the relative ecological damage they might do:

1) Weigh it.

Obviously the more materials and electronics etc it uses the heavier it will be. Consequently the greater ecological damage done in it's manufacture.

Also the more it weighs the greater will be the energy consumed in it's transport. That is transport of materials collected to make it and transport to the end users.

2) Check the purchase price.

Clearly the price reflects to a large extent the amount of materials and energy used in it's creation. (Excluding fashion items and such that have prices based on all kind of illogical non-practical reasons).

3) Find out how many of these things are being made.

Obviously making more of anything does more damage.

By comparing weight, price and quantity alone we already can discount the Pi as a major contributor to the world's energy consumption and ecological disaster problems. It's impact is lost in the noise!
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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PeterO
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:25 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:20 am
3) Find out how many of these things are being made.
Obviously making more of anything does more damage.
Not if people are buying Pis rather than full size desk tops, then making more pis could be reducing the overall damage. Your view is too simplistic.
By comparing weight, price and quantity alone we already can discount the Pi as a major contributor to the world's energy consumption and ecological disaster problems. It's impact is lost in the noise!
No, It contributes to the noise, and the noise level IS something to worry about.

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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:29 am

I'm probably just adding to the noise, here, but ...
One of the things I like about the Pi is that it's made in an old factory that used to make TVs. That means no concrete was poured to make the Pis.

Everyone goes on about how much CO2 is generated when we drive around, but apart from a couple of articles I've found, noone mentions how much is generated by the concrete and steel industries.
One article was in The New Scientist of 16th November, the other in Chemistry World of October.
I've hunted round, but can't find them at the moment, which is a pity, because they almost gave useful figures, but the take-home message was that together their output dwarfs that of transport, and is probably similar to or greater than energy generation.

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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:43 am

I think the OP forgot to add:

"the ecological footprint of Raspberry Pi users" in the question :mrgreen:


BTW, I think the OP is not even participating in the lively discussion
can I assume that "we've all been had"?

better we end this before it "blows up" ? ;)
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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hippy
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:26 pm

Heater wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:20 am
1) Weigh it.

Obviously the more materials and electronics etc it uses the heavier it will be. Consequently the greater ecological damage done in it's manufacture.
I am not convinced that is correct.

One has to take into account that rolling out thinner, lightweight, sheets of steel requires more processing and has greater impact than rolling out thicker and heavier sheets of steel. There is greater impact in creating the same amount of lightweight aluminium as heavier steel.

The aviation industry for one will typical expend extensive resources making things lighter.

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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:30 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:25 am
No, It contributes to the noise, and the noise level IS something to worry about.
While I agree with that in principle, and that specs that compare against "background" and hence allow raising the floor are a significant part of the problem, I am in alignment with some pretty basic engineering principles. When it comes to problem solving, go after the big issues first, since that is where you get the best return and have the biggest impact. Fix the big ones and the easy ones first, then work your way down the list. If you go down that path I suspect that the Pi comes in very low in a ranking of the contribution electronics make to the global environmental issue.

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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:32 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:43 am
I think the OP forgot to add:

"the ecological footprint of Raspberry Pi users" in the question :mrgreen:


BTW, I think the OP is not even participating in the lively discussion
can I assume that "we've all been had"?

better we end this before it "blows up" ? ;)
Irrespective of whether the OP is still around (perhaps a student? Sounds a bit like a student assignment), it's still a completely valid question that deserves consideration, and not being disregarded out of hand.

My thoughts are that as the Pi becomes more powerful, its capability to replace a lot of desktops out there must make it more friendly than those desktops due to lower power consumption, tiny form factor, lower component count and even its environmentally friendly packaging (compared with many other consumer devices). Lots to talk about there...
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LTolledo
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:47 pm

jamesh wrote: Irrespective of whether the OP is still around (perhaps a student? Sounds a bit like a student assignment), it's still a completely valid question that deserves consideration, and not being disregarded out of hand.

My thoughts are that as the Pi becomes more powerful, its capability to replace a lot of desktops out there must make it more friendly than those desktops due to lower power consumption, tiny form factor, lower component count and even its environmentally friendly packaging (compared with many other consumer devices). Lots to talk about there...
Roger that! :D

I'll leave it up to you guys/gals to come up with some very convincing "numerical" data to the OP
meanwhile me just watch by the sidelines..... ;)
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PeterO
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:04 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:30 pm
PeterO wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:25 am
No, It contributes to the noise, and the noise level IS something to worry about.
While I agree with that in principle, and that specs that compare against "background" and hence allow raising the floor are a significant part of the problem, I am in alignment with some pretty basic engineering principles. When it comes to problem solving, go after the big issues first, since that is where you get the best return and have the biggest impact. Fix the big ones and the easy ones first, then work your way down the list. If you go down that path I suspect that the Pi comes in very low in a ranking of the contribution electronics make to the global environmental issue.
To quote a supermarket advertising slogan "Every Little Helps" :-)
PeterO
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Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
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bjtheone
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:04 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:04 pm
bjtheone wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:30 pm
PeterO wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:25 am
No, It contributes to the noise, and the noise level IS something to worry about.
While I agree with that in principle, and that specs that compare against "background" and hence allow raising the floor are a significant part of the problem, I am in alignment with some pretty basic engineering principles. When it comes to problem solving, go after the big issues first, since that is where you get the best return and have the biggest impact. Fix the big ones and the easy ones first, then work your way down the list. If you go down that path I suspect that the Pi comes in very low in a ranking of the contribution electronics make to the global environmental issue.
To quote a supermarket advertising slogan "Every Little Helps" :-)
PeterO
Absolutely. However, if I am put in charge of dealing with the sinking ship, I am patching the biggest leaks first.

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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:43 pm

bjtheone,
However, if I am put in charge of dealing with the sinking ship, I am patching the biggest leaks first.
Ha! I was about to put it like this:

Here we are, the house in imminent danger of being submerged by flood waters and people want to worry about the effect of the cat peeing on the carpet!
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry pi ecological footprint

Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:54 pm

Heater wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:43 pm
bjtheone,
However, if I am put in charge of dealing with the sinking ship, I am patching the biggest leaks first.
Ha! I was about to put it like this:

Here we are, the house in imminent danger of being submerged by flood waters and people want to worry about the effect of the cat peeing on the carpet!
On the other hand, as Tesco would say, every little helps. Or alternatively, look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

Using the excuse that the bigger boys are doing it, so why should I bother, will lead to disaster.
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