jcyr
Posts: 491
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:14 am

Ok, we can’t drive a 2-wire brushless fan motor with a high frequency PWM signal… but how about a low frequency PWM signal? Setting the PWM clock divider to a maximum value of 2048, we get an internal PWM clock frequency of 9.375kHz. Then by setting a PWM range value of 8192, we end up with a 1.14Hz PWM control signal. Not your typical PWM settings... but within spec. Too short mark pulses will not allow enough time for the motor to spin up, but duty cycles of 25-100% in mark-space mode work well to provide variable fan speed. Fan blade inertia takes care of smoothing the spin and pulses are not audibly perceptible, nor does the motor squeal.

Here’s a temperature and fan power vs. time plot. Load applied at 45 seconds, removed at 245 seconds.

Image

Once the initial overshoot is corrected, a comfortable 70C is maintained with the fan at half power. Shows that even at max CPU load, the Pi4 needs just a little forced airflow to stay cool.
Last edited by jcyr on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

jj_0
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:23 am

Randomp wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:36 am
Just got my Barch Designs Pi Holder machined aluminum case for my 4GB Pi 4. It's very pricey at $70 USD, but I figure well worth it for piece of mind on a machine running 24/7 and avoiding fan noise and dust.

Ran a sysbench stress test on it for 10 minutes and it did not go over 58C.

Image

If you are interested in one, here is the link:
https://wickedaluminum.com/collections/ ... 5494435921

Makes the Pi into a tank, but I don't think it's for everyone. It is noted that it is likely to reduce Wifi and Bluetooth range, but I use neither of those, so I can't really confirm it in my use case.

I also ordered a Flirc case, but that has not shipped to me yet. I don't have too much hope that it can compete with this case, but it should do just fine for my 2GB Pi 4.
I can't decide on whether it's beautiful or monstrous. But compared to the Flirc case I have this one has heatsinks for other chips as well as for the CPU. So better heat dissipation I think. At a price. ..

User avatar
PeterO
Posts: 5138
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:41 am

jcyr wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:14 am
Too short mark pulses will not allow enough time for the motor to spin up, but duty cycles of 25-100% in mark-space mode work well to provide variable fan speed. Fan blade inertia takes care of smoothing the spin and pulses are not audibly perceptible, nor does the motor squeal.
Sounds more like "blipping" an engine :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 6PnKUEFX8g
PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

webbsmurfen
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:22 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:46 am

Randomp wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:36 am
Just got my Barch Designs Pi Holder machined aluminum case for my 4GB Pi 4. It's very pricey at $70 USD, but I figure well worth it for piece of mind on a machine running 24/7 and avoiding fan noise and dust.

Ran a sysbench stress test on it for 10 minutes and it did not go over 58C.

Image

If you are interested in one, here is the link:
https://wickedaluminum.com/collections/ ... 5494435921

Makes the Pi into a tank, but I don't think it's for everyone. It is noted that it is likely to reduce Wifi and Bluetooth range, but I use neither of those, so I can't really confirm it in my use case.

I also ordered a Flirc case, but that has not shipped to me yet. I don't have too much hope that it can compete with this case, but it should do just fine for my 2GB Pi 4.
That one looks awesome. Did you noticed any difference in range, when it comes to using Wifi/Bluetooth

Ultrabit
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:36 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:04 pm

I thought I'd share my experience with colling my Pi4 B+. Granted I've not done stress tests etc but still I thought someone might find it of use. I'm using the metal case in the photo below.

Case lid ON, no heatsink at idle 69 degrees
Case lid OFF, no heatsink at idle 61 degrees

Adafruit 15x15x15mm heatsink case lid OFF at idle 61 degrees (ie. makes no difference at all). Heatsink noted to have got very hot.

28x28x18mm heatsink from Ebay/RS case lid OFF at idle 54 degrees
28x28x18mm heatsink from Ebay/RS case lid ON at idle 62 degrees (a reduction of 7 degrees in total).

There's 0.5mm between the top of the heatsink and the case lid so it fits in there the quite nicely. I probably could have got a wider one but didn't want to cover the RAM chip impairing it's heat dissipation.

Image

Image

Image

link to the heatsink at RS, also found on Ebay
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products ... lsrc=aw.ds

User avatar
Randomp
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:30 pm

jj_0 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:23 am
Randomp wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:36 am
...
I can't decide on whether it's beautiful or monstrous. But compared to the Flirc case I have this one has heatsinks for other chips as well as for the CPU. So better heat dissipation I think. At a price. ..
Yeah 😅
It's machined out of a chunk of aluminum, so there's a lot of thermal mass compared to the Flirc. Size isn't much bigger than the Flirc though.

I'll do a stress test with my Flirc Kodi edition case when I get that to try and compare.

I only recommend this beast if you really need a fanless setup that will be crunching numbers 24/7. Otherwise it's overkill and pricey.
webbsmurfen wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:46 am
Randomp wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:36 am
...
That one looks awesome. Did you noticed any difference in range, when it comes to using Wifi/Bluetooth
Sorry, mine is set up as a headless server using Ethernet. But either way it's right next to my router, so WiFi would probably work just fine for me.
RPiB, RPi2B, RPi0, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPi4B2Gb, RPi4B4Gb :D

chipace
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:56 am
Location: brown paper bag in a septic tank

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:21 am

Ultrabit wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:04 pm
I thought I'd share my experience with colling my Pi4 B+. Granted I've not done stress tests etc but still I thought someone might find it of use. I'm using the metal case in the photo below.

Case lid ON, no heatsink at idle 69 degrees
Case lid OFF, no heatsink at idle 61 degrees

Adafruit 15x15x15mm heatsink case lid OFF at idle 61 degrees (ie. makes no difference at all). Heatsink noted to have got very hot.

28x28x18mm heatsink from Ebay/RS case lid OFF at idle 54 degrees
28x28x18mm heatsink from Ebay/RS case lid ON at idle 62 degrees (a reduction of 7 degrees in total).
You need to run cpuburn-a53 to really test your setups. Also you probably want to overclock by 10% without any over-voltage (I have found my RPi4 to be stable with 15% overclock with no overvoltage). The goal is to not thermal throttle for as long as possible on maximum load (bonus points for doing it at the lowest cost and lowest impact to your workspace... i.e. noise, access to ports and gpio header).

With my Adafruit heatsink and no case I can last 1 minute on maximum load before I thermal throttle, and that is more than enough for me as I just want my apps to load as fast as possible. I sometimes will do Gimp image manipulation but it usually completes in less than 10 seconds.

I suspect that with no case, no heatsink and no overclock that it could last for 1 minute at maximum load before thermal throttling... and that is perfectly fine for the average user. For me, the $2 heatsink and $2 gpio extender is worth the 15% overclock.
Just my opinion.

tdimike
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:06 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:00 pm

I'm seeing 17.4 degrees ambient currently and have just run cpu burn with the following guide :

https://core-electronics.com.au/tutoria ... ry-pi.html Would it be correct to assume the A53 burn is what you're referring to?

Here are current temperature results :

Code: Select all

while true; do vcgencmd measure_clock arm; vcgencmd measure_temp; sleep 10; done& ./cpuburn-a53                                       
[2] 6906                                                                                                                              
frequency(48)=600169920                                                                                                               
temp=35.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=38.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=43.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=43.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=44.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=44.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=44.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=48.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=48.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=48.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=48.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=48.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=48.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=45.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=48.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500398464                                                                                                              
temp=46.0'C                                                                                                                           
frequency(48)=1500345728                                                                                                              
temp=47.0'C                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                              

natc
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:08 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:30 pm

The parent post intrigues me. Has the PWM frequency changed between the pi3 and pi4? I just got my pi4 and was setting up my fan. I'm now running buster(pi4) vs. stretch(pi3) maybe that has something to do with it but assumed GPIO was same. Add a capacitor?

A while back I wrote a little daemon that checks CPU temp every second and PWM's a PI-FAN between MIN (always on slow, dead quiet) and MAX (good airflow but audible whine). Worked great on pi3 when it got busy. I can't get PWM to work at all on pi4? Perhaps it's deb 10/buster, I don't get any perm errors, just not expected output on GPIO pin. It's always 'ground'.

I'm using a $0.10 200ma N-channel jfet to PWM drive the fan off a GPIO pin, + on fan nailed to 5V rail.

Am I missing something obvious? I tried 2 different GPIO capable pins. As root and myself.

Cheers!

Lee

chipace
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:56 am
Location: brown paper bag in a septic tank

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:08 am

tdimike wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:00 pm
I'm seeing 17.4 degrees ambient currently and have just run cpu burn with the following guide :

https://core-electronics.com.au/tutoria ... ry-pi.html Would it be correct to assume the A53 burn is what you're referring to?
Yes... I am running the same script. At stock clock setting of 1.5GHz I am not seeing thermal throttling with my Adafruit heatsink. It's only when I allowed overclocking to 1.65GHz did I thermal throttle after 1 minute.

tdimike
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:06 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:47 pm

chipace wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:08 am
tdimike wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:00 pm
I'm seeing 17.4 degrees ambient currently and have just run cpu burn with the following guide :

https://core-electronics.com.au/tutoria ... ry-pi.html Would it be correct to assume the A53 burn is what you're referring to?
Yes... I am running the same script. At stock clock setting of 1.5GHz I am not seeing thermal throttling with my Adafruit heatsink. It's only when I allowed overclocking to 1.65GHz did I thermal throttle after 1 minute.
As suggested I ran the burn test again, I ran it with an overclock and a touch of overvoltage (1) at 1750 clock speed and got a peak temperature of 51 degrees. I'm really happy with the cooling capability of this setup and it makes minimal noise also.

Code: Select all

root@raspberrypi:~# while true; do vcgencmd measure_clock arm; vcgencmd measure_temp; sleep 10; done& ./cpuburn-a53
[1] 5926
frequency(48)=700207040
temp=29.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=40.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=41.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=43.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=46.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=46.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=46.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=47.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=48.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=49.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=52.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=51.0'C
frequency(48)=1750464896
temp=50.0'C
frequency(48)=1750412160
temp=50.0'C

User avatar
Randomp
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:03 am

So I finally got my Flirc Kodi Edition case to test against my Wicked Aluminum/Pi Holder case from Barch Designs.

Room temp is about 80F or 26.6C. Tests were taken consecutively on two separate Pi4s in the same exact location. The tests were started at about the same time after booting up. The Flirc case is housing a Raspberry Pi 4 2GB while the Wicked Aluminum case is housing a Raspberry Pi 4 4GB version. This should not affect CPU temperatures, but I just want to be transparent about the variables.

Flirc Kodi Edition ($15.95) Temps:
Image

Code: Select all

temp=38.0'C
temp=48.0'C
temp=52.0'C
temp=54.0'C
temp=56.0'C
temp=58.0'C
temp=59.0'C
temp=60.0'C
Wicked Aluminum ($69.99) Temps:
Image

Code: Select all

temp=33.0'C
temp=40.0'C
temp=42.0'C
temp=44.0'C
temp=46.0'C
temp=49.0'C
temp=50.0'C
temp=51.0'C
A 9 or so degree difference in peak temperature. Of note, I did not use the included thermal paste that came with the Wicked Aluminum case. I used Arctic MX-4 that I had laying around. Flirc case is using the thermal pad that was included with it.
RPiB, RPi2B, RPi0, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPi4B2Gb, RPi4B4Gb :D

jj_0
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:14 am

Randomp wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:03 am
So I finally got my Flirc Kodi Edition case to test against my Wicked Aluminum/Pi Holder case from Barch Designs.

Room temp is about 80F or 26.6C. Tests were taken consecutively on two separate Pi4s in the same exact location. The tests were started at about the same time after booting up. The Flirc case is housing a Raspberry Pi 4 2GB while the Wicked Aluminum case is housing a Raspberry Pi 4 4GB version. This should not affect CPU temperatures, but I just want to be transparent about the variables.

Flirc Kodi Edition ($15.95) Temps:
Image

Code: Select all

temp=38.0'C
temp=48.0'C
temp=52.0'C
temp=54.0'C
temp=56.0'C
temp=58.0'C
temp=59.0'C
temp=60.0'C
Wicked Aluminum ($69.99) Temps:
Image

Code: Select all

temp=33.0'C
temp=40.0'C
temp=42.0'C
temp=44.0'C
temp=46.0'C
temp=49.0'C
temp=50.0'C
temp=51.0'C
A 9 or so degree difference in peak temperature. Of note, I did not use the included thermal paste that came with the Wicked Aluminum case. I used Arctic MX-4 that I had laying around. Flirc case is using the thermal pad that was included with it.
Interesting so taking the difference in starting temp into account the difference is 4'C. Hmmm... It's still a beautiful case, but I'm not sure if it's worth it ;)

Btw, I ordered this case which also cools more than only the CPU. I'll post some numbers when it arrives. Might take some time to arrive though...

takyon
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:05 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:23 pm

MisterEd wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:32 pm
Image
I didn't realize that the FLIRC case was going to beat open air (no case) so soundly. That's great. Guess I'll be overclocking it.

pfletch101
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:09 am
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:55 pm

takyon wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:23 pm
MisterEd wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:32 pm
Image
I didn't realize that the FLIRC case was going to beat open air (no case) so soundly. That's great. Guess I'll be overclocking it.
I have now (finally!) received my Pi 4 and have it installed in a Flirc case, and my limited testing confirms what you have found. The one downside of the Flirc approach is that, in the steady state, the entire case gets very hot - probably only a few degrees cooler than the measured CPU temperature, so you have to be fairly careful about where it is sitting and need to make sure that no-one (including yourself) touches it if/when the Pi has been working hard for a while.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24139
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Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:01 pm

We've found something similar, but you really need to be working it hard to get it too hot. Most of the testing described here is pathological - you'd never encounter it in the real world, so the FLIRC is generally fine. I prefer the fan route myself, but I use them open so don't bother with either.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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User avatar
Randomp
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:10 am

jj_0 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:14 am
Randomp wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:03 am
...
Interesting so taking the difference in starting temp into account the difference is 4'C. Hmmm... It's still a beautiful case, but I'm not sure if it's worth it ;)

Btw, I ordered this case which also cools more than only the CPU. I'll post some numbers when it arrives. Might take some time to arrive though...
I'm not sure why exactly the starting idle temp was lower, but ambient room temperature was identical in both tests. It might be that the thermal pad is acting as a bit of an insulator because it is quite thick... Considering that temps jumped 10 degrees immediately after the first reading on the Flirc and rose a lot more steadily with the Wicked aluminum seems to kinda confirm that I think. I'm going to try the test again when I have time in a few days.

The case you linked to is a Rpi 3B+ case and not for the 4. So it likely won't fit.
RPiB, RPi2B, RPi0, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPi4B2Gb, RPi4B4Gb :D

User avatar
HawaiianPi
Posts: 4862
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:53 am
Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:16 am

Randomp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:10 am
Considering that temps jumped 10 degrees immediately after the first reading on the Flirc and rose a lot more steadily with the Wicked aluminum seems to kinda confirm that I think.
What I think is that the point is to stay below throttling temperature, and the $15 Flirc does that (mine was $11.20 pre-order for the non-Kodi version), so that $70 case seems like a huge waste of money (to me, anyway).

Have you tested wireless performance on that expensive case? Cases that surround the Pi in metal seem to reduce WiFi and Bluetooth performance much more than the Flirc (which has plastic on the bottom and part of the side where the wireless antenna is located).
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

User avatar
Randomp
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:56 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:16 am
Randomp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:10 am
Considering that temps jumped 10 degrees immediately after the first reading on the Flirc and rose a lot more steadily with the Wicked aluminum seems to kinda confirm that I think.
What I think is that the point is to stay below throttling temperature, and the $15 Flirc does that (mine was $11.20 pre-order for the non-Kodi version), so that $70 case seems like a huge waste of money (to me, anyway).

Have you tested wireless performance on that expensive case? Cases that surround the Pi in metal seem to reduce WiFi and Bluetooth performance much more than the Flirc (which has plastic on the bottom and part of the side where the wireless antenna is located).
Heat isn't only bad because of throttling. Extended periods of heat can eventually lead to premature failure of chips. So even if it's below the throttling threshold, it can still be detrimental in the long term.

I don't have a use case for WiFi or Bluetooth in my setup. The only real reason I updated to the Pi 4 is because of USB 3 and gigabit Ethernet. It is mentioned in the Pi3 version of this case that WiFi and Bluetooth range will be slightly reduced and to look into adapters if that is important to you.

No one particularly needs a case like this. It's definitely a luxury item. I just decided to go with one because this pi runs pretty hot and I just wanted one.

For the average person, I definitely recommend the Flirc case. Especially the Kodi edition, it looks super sleek.
RPiB, RPi2B, RPi0, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPi4B2Gb, RPi4B4Gb :D

jahboater
Posts: 4837
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:38 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:58 am

Randomp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:56 am
Heat isn't only bad because of throttling. Extended periods of heat can eventually lead to premature failure of chips. So even if it's below the throttling threshold, it can still be detrimental in the long term.
30 years instead of 35 years ?

User avatar
Randomp
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:05 am

jahboater wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:58 am
Randomp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:56 am
Heat isn't only bad because of throttling. Extended periods of heat can eventually lead to premature failure of chips. So even if it's below the throttling threshold, it can still be detrimental in the long term.
30 years instead of 35 years ?
:D I know it is highly unlikely and doesn't even apply all that well to my use case for my own Pis since I am likely to retire them early for the next model. Still a true fact though.
RPiB, RPi2B, RPi0, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPi4B2Gb, RPi4B4Gb :D

jj_0
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:14 am

Randomp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:10 am

The case you linked to is a Rpi 3B+ case and not for the 4. So it likely won't fit.
Oops. I guess I was suffering from the heat as well when I ordered it. My Pi 3B+ will be very happy with its new case I hope.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 15580
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:24 am

Randomp wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:05 am
:D I know it is highly unlikely and doesn't even apply all that well to my use case for my own Pis since I am likely to retire them early for the next model. Still a true fact though.
I haven't manage to retire a Pi yet (apart from the two that died - a 1A and a Zero). Most of the rest are still in use ( I keep a few spare for projects) Including my first early 1B.

My Raspberrys will probably outlast me.

atez
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:55 pm

I stumbled across a rather neat solution to the heat problem of my pi3B+. I understand the problems with the pi4 are even worse.
I had to replace a defective LED headlight and discovered there is a very small but powerfull blower attached to the end of the light.
It runs like mad on 12 Volt but is a mild but still not very quiet blower at 5V. To make it a whispering blower but still strong enough the voltage can be brought back to about 3,5 Volt by two 1N2003 diodes in series with the the blower. dril plenty of holes and connect to the 40 pin side connector. Try you local garage for a defective car led light. A real pythonian would build a regulator with a LM335 and a LM317 but for me this works fine.
TIP: dismantle the light and throw away the led part before testing the blower, there is very little you can do with these leds they get way too hot for sensible use. furthermore :THE LEDS ARE EXTREMELY BRIGHT AND WILL PERMANENTLY DAMAGE YOUR RETINA IN SECONDS.
Attachments
raspberry met blower.jpg
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dpawson
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:05 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:37 pm

clicky wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:33 pm
Fan SHIM our favourite pirates are selling makes temperature under control at all times. After installing it I haven't seen it going over 49ºC at any point. And - it is solderless installation - so no need to 'dedicate' PI to run with that particular shim.

Alternative (from my perspective) is what I've done for my son's Orange Pi - made a case with fan 1cm away from PCB constantly working extracting air. I suspect that (even being enclosed) it would keep temperature low enough...
Any suggestions how this might work with the sense hat please? Need to extend the gpio header?

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