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jcyr
Posts: 458
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Location: Atlanta

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:28 am

PhatFil wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:17 pm
jj_0 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:10 am
PhatFil wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:58 pm


73'C sounds pretty close to 80C when i understand throttling will start.
What happens after a few hours of watching hi-def video or browsing add and clickbait covered social media pages if its hitting 73c internally after only 1 hour or so??
Well, assuming idle temp of 41'C, 73'C is only at 82% of the usable (non-throttling range). I've let the test run overnight for ~10h20m. Highest temp is 71'C, highest temp of case is 49'C. Ambient temperature dropped to 24'C during the night but increased to 26'C during the night.
Image
So it looks like at ~70'C the case is able to keep it stable.

ok you have convinced me... great response btw..
Ok, but how well does the built-in WiFi and Bluetooth work in a metal enclosure?
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

tdimike
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:06 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:09 am

chipace wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:15 pm
I started to adjust the overclocking of my RPi4 and I can easily get it to thermal throttle now. At 1.7GHz I will thermal throttle within 1 minute of starting a53burn. I really like running at 1.7GHz as I can see a measurable difference in performance when loading big programs.
At low load the cpu runs at 600MHz.

/boot/config.txt
arm_freq=1700

sudo cat /sys/bus/cpu/devices/cpu0/cpufreq/cpuinfo_cur_freq
600000
sudo cat /sys/bus/cpu/devices/cpu0/cpufreq/cpuinfo_max_freq
1700000

If people are keeping their RPi4 on heavy load frequently, maybe they should move to an Intel or AMD board.
What makes you say they should move to intel / amd? The pi is quite capable of keeping low temperatures with a modest cooling solution. I have a couple of small copper heatsinks attached to cpu and ram and have no such temperature issues - even at 1.75Ghz. Perhaps I'll leave a run of stress test going overnight and report back temperatures, but they really aren't anything to be concerned about with the above mentioned cooling solution.

jj_0
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:55 am

PhatFil wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:17 pm
jj_0 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:10 am
PhatFil wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:58 pm


73'C sounds pretty close to 80C when i understand throttling will start.
What happens after a few hours of watching hi-def video or browsing add and clickbait covered social media pages if its hitting 73c internally after only 1 hour or so??
Well, assuming idle temp of 41'C, 73'C is only at 82% of the usable (non-throttling range). I've let the test run overnight for ~10h20m. Highest temp is 71'C, highest temp of case is 49'C. Ambient temperature dropped to 24'C during the night but increased to 26'C during the night.
Image
So it looks like at ~70'C the case is able to keep it stable.

ok you have convinced me... great response btw..
Thanks :-)

I've done another run using cpuburn-a53. Not exactly the same circumstances, this time I used the perforated bottom of a Pi 3 flirc case and turned the case upside-down to let the warm air escape. The reason was that my Pi 4 smelled a bit like 'hot electronics'. The case only cools the CPU of course, not any other chips that might heat up.
Similar results as before with slightly higher temperatures that are reached quicker. I added CPU frequency as well to see if it's throttling. I leave it to the reader to spot when I opened a window which caused airflow and dropped ambient temperature from 26'C to 22'C ;-)
Image

And finally, a run with overclock to 1.7GHz and ambient temperature a stable 30'C (in my utility closet). Now there is some throttling until I add a household fan in the mix.
Image
Last edited by jj_0 on Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jj_0
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:29 am

jcyr wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:28 am


Ok, but how well does the built-in WiFi and Bluetooth work in a metal enclosure?
I haven't tested Bluetooth but Wifi seems to work fine from 1st floor to router on ground floor:

With case:

Code: Select all

pi@raspberrypi:~/Downloads $ iperf -c 10.0.0.254 -p 4711 -t 60 -i 10
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 10.0.0.254, TCP port 4711
TCP window size: 91.9 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 10.0.0.145 port 54912 connected with 10.0.0.254 port 4711
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec  58.6 MBytes  49.2 Mbits/sec
[  3] 10.0-20.0 sec  66.0 MBytes  55.4 Mbits/sec
[  3] 20.0-30.0 sec  51.2 MBytes  43.0 Mbits/sec
[  3] 30.0-40.0 sec  61.5 MBytes  51.6 Mbits/sec
[  3] 40.0-50.0 sec  65.9 MBytes  55.3 Mbits/sec
[  3] 50.0-60.0 sec  65.5 MBytes  54.9 Mbits/sec
[  3]  0.0-60.2 sec   369 MBytes  51.4 Mbits/sec
Without case:

Code: Select all

pi@raspberrypi:~ $ iperf -c 10.0.0.254 -p 4711 -t 60 -i 10
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 10.0.0.254, TCP port 4711
TCP window size: 87.5 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[  3] local 10.0.0.145 port 37026 connected with 10.0.0.254 port 4711
[ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
[  3]  0.0-10.0 sec  50.6 MBytes  42.5 Mbits/sec
[  3] 10.0-20.0 sec  37.9 MBytes  31.8 Mbits/sec
[  3] 20.0-30.0 sec  54.9 MBytes  46.0 Mbits/sec
[  3] 30.0-40.0 sec  55.5 MBytes  46.6 Mbits/sec
[  3] 40.0-50.0 sec  54.8 MBytes  45.9 Mbits/sec
[  3] 50.0-60.0 sec  55.0 MBytes  46.1 Mbits/sec
[  3]  0.0-60.1 sec   309 MBytes  43.1 Mbits/sec
I'v run iperf multiple times both with and without case, results were better with case than without case. A bit unexpected, maybe the case shields the antenna from interference?

raspipat
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:17 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:52 pm

I've got a Miuzei [*1] acrylic case with a little built-in fan.
It is a very nice little case, and the little fan works REALLY well.
Idle temps are 40C.
I've been running 30 minute tests using 'stress -c 4' and so far the fan easily keeps the peak temps at just under 60C
Ambient temps are 24C.

In order to keep the GPIO header pins free for use by other applications, I soldered a couple leads to the TP1 (+5) and TP12 (GND) pads on the underside of the PI and connected the fan to those leads.

[*1] - Miuzei case on Amazon;
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VDHTVGP

rjbook51
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:56 pm

I simply took the top off the case and turned the pi upside down on a laptop cooler pad. Powered the cooler pad fan from a usb charger. Not elegant but I hide the pi behind my monitor anyhow. The only disadvantage is constant fan noise. It keeps my 3B+ under 46 deg C, full load, and so far my 4B under 65 deg C.

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CypherOz
Posts: 47
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Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:20 am

I had a heat sink - it only make a few degrees C improvement.

My Fan SHIM for Raspberry Pi arrived today.... idles low 30's and stress 100% x 4CPUs is mid 50's - yes!!

Cooling is a must - I'm new to RPi but not IT; makes sense, maybe RPi need to have a good cooling solution off the shelf
--
Regards, Kym
Retired software bloke from Adelaide, South Australia

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DougieLawson
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Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:34 am

CypherOz wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:20 am
Cooling is a must - I'm new to RPi but not IT; makes sense, maybe RPi need to have a good cooling solution off the shelf
They have that in the power over ethernet (POE) HAT.

None of my Raspberries have any need for a fan, so it's got to be an add-on.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

Fenlig
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 4:38 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:20 pm

I've been running a small Minecraft server with my Pi in a Flirc case, keeps the temps under 60c, but I can't touch the case for too long. I feel like I should get an active cooler :D

Would there be anything gained in removing the CPU lid so you can more directly mount a proper heatsink?

Herbaldew
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:59 pm
Location: US Mid-Atlantic

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:00 pm

My Flirc arrived a few hours ago.

Didn't run any kind of tests but real world results are (Running CumulusMX weather station software full time):

Pi 3B+ w/ Flirc 50
Pi 4B 2G w/ Flirc 56

*The 4B was running 68 without case

MisterEd
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:28 am
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:32 pm

jj_0 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:55 pm
I just received a flirc case. Ran the same test as the guy from Explainingcomputers:

Ambient Temperature: 27.0'C
temp=41.0'C
temp=50.0'C
temp=52.0'C
temp=54.0'C
temp=54.0'C
temp=56.0'C
temp=57.0'C
temp=59.0'C

The hottest spot on the case that I could find was 41'C.

So this case not only looks beautiful, it also seems to work well.
I ran the same tests except I modified the script from Explaining Computers to output the results to a file. The following tests were run:
No case (17:26 ambient=25.2C)
No case w/ table fan (17:40 ambient=25.2C)
CanKit case w/o top (18:10 ambient=25.0C)
CanKit case w/ top (18:40 ambient=24.6C)
Flirc case (19:55 ambient=24.3C)
Note I have the 3 CanaKit heatsinks but decided not to install them because I was going to switch to a Flirc case.
Image
Last edited by MisterEd on Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

webbsmurfen
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:22 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:16 pm

jj_0 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:10 am
PhatFil wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:58 pm
jj_0 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:38 am


And running it for 1h11m the highest temperature is 73'C. Highest temperature on the case is 47'C.
73'C sounds pretty close to 80C when i understand throttling will start.
What happens after a few hours of watching hi-def video or browsing add and clickbait covered social media pages if its hitting 73c internally after only 1 hour or so??
Well, assuming idle temp of 41'C, 73'C is only at 82% of the usable (non-throttling range). I've let the test run overnight for ~10h20m. Highest temp is 71'C, highest temp of case is 49'C. Ambient temperature dropped to 24'C during the night but increased to 26'C during the night.
Image
So it looks like at ~70'C the case is able to keep it stable.
what program is used to create those graphs? i have used that script from explaining computers

MisterEd
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:28 am
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:28 am

webbsmurfen wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:16 pm
jj_0 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:10 am
PhatFil wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:58 pm


73'C sounds pretty close to 80C when i understand throttling will start.
What happens after a few hours of watching hi-def video or browsing add and clickbait covered social media pages if its hitting 73c internally after only 1 hour or so??
Well, assuming idle temp of 41'C, 73'C is only at 82% of the usable (non-throttling range). I've let the test run overnight for ~10h20m. Highest temp is 71'C, highest temp of case is 49'C. Ambient temperature dropped to 24'C during the night but increased to 26'C during the night.
Image
So it looks like at ~70'C the case is able to keep it stable.
what program is used to create those graphs? i have used that script from explaining computers
I know you are not asking me but I used the script from Explaining Computers also. I used Microsoft Excel to make my graphs because I more familiar with it. You should be able to do something similar with Libre Office Calc. As an exercise I might just try that also.

tdimike
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:06 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:18 am

Here I have graphed four runs, the first 3 are with a very low ambient temperature of 12.5 degrees, the final is in a much warmer room!

Stock clock and voltage
Unvervolted with Overvoltage= -8
1750MHz with overvoltage=1
Attachments
including room temp run.png
including room temp run.png (24.86 KiB) Viewed 1297 times

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jcyr
Posts: 458
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Location: Atlanta

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:53 am

Since we're posting graphs, here's one of a Pi4 with a software controlled small fan.
Image
Load is applied at 45 seconds and removed at 275 seconds.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

RonR
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:29 pm
Location: US

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:20 am

jcyr wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:53 am
Since we're posting graphs, here's one of a Pi4 with a software controlled small fan.
Looks like the software could stand a little improvement in its smoothing algorithm, :)

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jcyr
Posts: 458
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Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:11 am

RonR wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:20 am
Looks like the software could stand a little improvement in its smoothing algorithm, :)
The fan is either on or off... not much smoothing possible. PWM modulation doesn't play well with brushless motors. The idea is to keep the temp below 70C with minimal fan operation.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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Imperf3kt
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Location: Australia

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:41 am

jcyr wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:11 am
RonR wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:20 am
Looks like the software could stand a little improvement in its smoothing algorithm, :)
The fan is either on or off... not much smoothing possible. PWM modulation doesn't play well with brushless motors. The idea is to keep the temp below 70C with minimal fan operation.
Source?
10 seconds of googling and more than 2 decades of personal experience suggests otherwise
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/articles/ ... -dc-motors
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

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PeterO
Posts: 5084
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Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:33 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:41 am
Source?
10 seconds of googling and more than 2 decades of personal experience suggests otherwise
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/articles/ ... -dc-motors
There is a big difference between the motor controller (called an ESC (Electronic Speed Controler) in modelling circles) performing PWM for speed control and something external performing PWM on the controlers power supply to attempt speed control.

One works, the other doesn't.

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

jj_0
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:33 am

webbsmurfen wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:16 pm

what program is used to create those graphs? i have used that script from explaining computers
LibreOffice Calc on the Pi 4 :D I find it quite usable.

pfletch101
Posts: 530
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:09 am
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:53 pm

HawaiianPi wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:58 am
pfletch101 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:26 pm
I may eventually be able to tell you, but my Flirc case is currently even further back-ordered than my Pi 4.4! :)
Pimoroni has the Pi4 4GB in stock (actually they have all 3 flavors in stock at the time of this post).
https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/rasp ... 7087445075

Okdo has 4GB in stock as well.
https://www.okdo.com/us/shop/raspberry- ... oard-only/

Flirc told me they're shipping in 3-4 weeks, 2 weeks ago.
I should have taken your advice! Newark were showing my Pi as shipping on July 26. However, when I contacted them today to find out what was going on, the agent told me that they weren't expecting new stock until October!!!! Meanwhile, it looks as if everyone else is now out of stock, too. Grrrr!! :x

{EDIT} Canakit did apparently still have stock as of this morning, and are shipping me a 4 GB Pi 4, hopefully to arrive on August 2. :D
Last edited by pfletch101 on Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Imperf3kt
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Location: Australia

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:01 pm

PeterO wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:33 am
Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:41 am
Source?
10 seconds of googling and more than 2 decades of personal experience suggests otherwise
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/articles/ ... -dc-motors
There is a big difference between the motor controller (called an ESC (Electronic Speed Controler) in modelling circles) performing PWM for speed control and something external performing PWM on the controlers power supply to attempt speed control.

One works, the other doesn't.

PeterO
Quite obviously if the fan includes speed control you should use that, but there is no reason why it won't work on a regular 2 wire fan.
The original claim was that
PWM modulation doesn't play well with brushless motors.
Nothing mentioned of fans that include their own speed control circuitry.
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

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jcyr
Posts: 458
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Location: Atlanta

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:00 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:01 pm
PeterO wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:33 am
Quite obviously if the fan includes speed control you should use that, but there is no reason why it won't work on a regular 2 wire fan.
The original claim was that
PWM modulation doesn't play well with brushless motors.
Nothing mentioned of fans that include their own speed control circuitry.
A brushless 2-wire fan motor has an internal circuit that controls the sequentially ordered signals to the N motor coils. This circuit must stay powered at all times to keep the motor running. Clearly this is not achieved when applying a high frequency PWM to power the motor. There is however a different way to achieve variable 2-wire brushless motor control using the Pi's PWM pin.. More on this later.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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exartemarte
Posts: 373
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Location: Middle England
Contact: Website

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:20 pm

jcyr wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:00 pm
. . . There is however a different way to achieve variable 2-wire brushless motor control using the Pi's PWM pin.. More on this later.
Suddenly this thread is getting interesting - I'm looking forward to your next post.

(Not that I actually want to control the speed of my fan, but I'd like to know how.)

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Randomp
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Pi4 Cooling

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:36 am

Just got my Barch Designs Pi Holder machined aluminum case for my 4GB Pi 4. It's very pricey at $70 USD, but I figure well worth it for piece of mind on a machine running 24/7 and avoiding fan noise and dust.

Ran a sysbench stress test on it for 10 minutes and it did not go over 58C.

Image

If you are interested in one, here is the link:
https://wickedaluminum.com/collections/ ... 5494435921

Makes the Pi into a tank, but I don't think it's for everyone. It is noted that it is likely to reduce Wifi and Bluetooth range, but I use neither of those, so I can't really confirm it in my use case.

I also ordered a Flirc case, but that has not shipped to me yet. I don't have too much hope that it can compete with this case, but it should do just fine for my 2GB Pi 4.
RPiB, RPi2B, RPi0, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPi4B2Gb, RPi4B4Gb :D

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