marsman2020
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:57 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:45 pm
All I know is that any power cable that has a chip in it that inhibits the flow of power is broken.

Use a proper cable.
What a ridiculously ignorant statement.

The USB-PD (power delivery) specification allows up to 100W to be delivered over USB-C at voltages up to 20V.

The chip in the cable allows the source and the sink to know the power capability of the cable when they negotiate the voltage to be used.

It's to protect the user and the source/sink devices from the risk of a fire if they were to negotiate a higher current/power draw then the cable is capable of.

https://www.renesas.com/us/en/support/t ... nd-current

Having lived the original Pi Model B with the polyfuses causing USB power issues and the OTG-based host port on the SoC causing lots of USB software issues....I'm very disappointed that the Pi 4 was designed in a way that violates the USB-C specification. My expectation would be that anything involving USB ends up under quite the microscope given the past issues, but I guess that's not true.

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HawaiianPi
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:06 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:06 pm
Hmmm.. So avoid USB-C 3.1 cables.
Wish it was that simple, but the folks responsible for naming USB standards have lost their minds (or consciously decided to make it far more confusing than it needs to be).

Case in point...

USB 3.0 was renamed (reclassified?) to USB 3.1 Gen1 back around 2013(ish). So a USB 3.0 cable is also a USB 3.1 (Gen1) cable, rated for 5Gbps, and a USB 3.1 Gen2 cable/device is rated for 10Gbps.

But wait, there's more!

Just in case that wasn't confusing enough, in 2017 USB 3.1 was renamed to USB 3.2, and USB 3.1 Gen1 became USB 3.2 Gen 1x1, while USB 3.1 Gen2 became USB 3.2 Gen 2x1 (and a new USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 standard was adopted for speeds up to 20Gbps).

So, a USB 3.0 cable, and a USB 3.1 Gen1 cable, and a USB 3.2 Gen 1x1 cable are all basically the same thing. Clear as mud, right?
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:12 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:06 am
So, a USB 3.0 cable, and a USB 3.1 Gen1 cable, and a USB 3.2 Gen 1x1 cable are all basically the same thing. Clear as mud, right?
I do recall reading that stuff. And I agree with your assessment of those doing the naming. My suspicion would be that those people are in marketing, not engineering.

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HawaiianPi
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:25 am

And if the joys of ever changing USB standards aren't enough to keep things lively around here, we still have SDUC and SD Express cards to look forward to... ;)
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

jamesh
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:47 am

marsman2020 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:57 pm
Having lived the original Pi Model B with the polyfuses causing USB power issues and the OTG-based host port on the SoC causing lots of USB software issues....I'm very disappointed that the Pi 4 was designed in a way that violates the USB-C specification.
Worth noting that this was not a deliberate design flaw, but accidental, so saying it was designed in this way doesn't really give the whole story. It will be fixed in a later board revision.

Did you know the Nintendo Switch also has a non-compliant USB-C port? Maybe even for the same reason!
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rin67630
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:26 am

hardwaremack-orginal wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:58 pm
...screen apparently will only do 4k@30hz through the HDMI cable...
Why the hell should one want to get more than 30Hz on an LCD screen?
LCDs don't flicker by design.
We are here in a RasPi, not on a gaming freaks forum.

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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:30 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:26 am
hardwaremack-orginal wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:58 pm
...screen apparently will only do 4k@30hz through the HDMI cable...
Why the hell should one want to get more than 30Hz on an LCD screen?
LCDs don't flicker by design.
We are here in a RasPi, not on a gaming freaks forum.
Keep it polite please.

Some people want 60Hz. Simple as. 60Hz now needs to be specifically enabled as it does require more power, so it's not like you can choose it by accident.
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rin67630
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:08 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:30 am
Keep it polite please.
Some people want 60Hz. Simple as. 60Hz now needs to be specifically enabled as it does require more power, so it's not like you can choose it by accident.
Sorry, I didn't want to be rude, not even critical. Just invite the readers to consider the requirement somewhat closer.

The question remains: why? What is the benefit?
A Raspberry Pi hardly will be able to render a that speed.

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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:28 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:08 am
jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:30 am
Keep it polite please.
Some people want 60Hz. Simple as. 60Hz now needs to be specifically enabled as it does require more power, so it's not like you can choose it by accident.
Sorry, I didn't want to be rude, not even critical. Just invite the readers to consider the requirement somewhat closer.

The question remains: why? What is the benefit?
A Raspberry Pi hardly will be able to render a that speed.
Actually, the GPU should be able to render at 4kp60 at the same speed as the previous Pi models did at 1080p60. It's about 4x faster, depending on how you measure it.
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rin67630
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:03 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:28 am
rin67630 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:08 am
The question remains: why? What is the benefit?
A Raspberry Pi hardly will be able to render a that speed.
Actually, the GPU should be able to render at 4kp60 at the same speed as the previous Pi models did at 1080p60. It's about 4x faster, depending on how you measure it.
I'm impressed, but the questions remain: Why? What is the benefit?

trejan
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:12 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:03 pm
I'm impressed, but the questions remain: Why? What is the benefit?
Because people are making 4K60 content? It isn't just gaming either. It isn't costing you anything extra to have the 4K60 support anyway so why do you seem so angry about this? If you don't need it then don't enable it.

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bensimmo
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:19 pm

If an LCD doesn't flicker, then why when I wave my hand in front of it, does my hand have 'steps' in position?


What has this got to do with USB-C ?

No I don't know why I would want to watch in p60 over p30, mainly as I haven't done enough of it.

But it is there, people do it. Gamers certainly stream in it.
TV and monitors are capable of it (and faster, can the Pi use the Sync technologies?)
The few bits of Redbull TV that I have seen looks pretty good, but that could just be HDR and decent 4K footage.

Streaming 4K and letting the device down sample to 1080p seems to give a much better footage then the HD stream does...
Looking at you iPlayer, why not send your HD out at a better rate?

Have fun :-)

bob332
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:29 am

Being a noob to the Pi Ecosystem and new to the forum, I have an HDMI Audio passthrough question waiting in a queue well, because I am new, so I may as well ask this here - when the fixed boards are put out in the wild, will the fix interfere w/ the current mounting options of the Pi4? Reason I ask is because I want to get started on designing an enclosure that will fit MY needs much better than what is currently offered (no disrespect to why is offered, it just does not fulfill what I need it to as an enclosure if the HDMI Audio question comes out in my favor (fingers crossed).
I would rather do this design once, and I do have some time to wait, but curious how long before the "fixed" Pi4s would be out?
Thanks in advance,
Bob

drgeoff
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:13 am

bob332 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:29 am
Being a noob to the Pi Ecosystem and new to the forum, I have an HDMI Audio passthrough question waiting in a queue well, because I am new, so I may as well ask this here - when the fixed boards are put out in the wild, will the fix interfere w/ the current mounting options of the Pi4? Reason I ask is because I want to get started on designing an enclosure that will fit MY needs much better than what is currently offered (no disrespect to why is offered, it just does not fulfill what I need it to as an enclosure if the HDMI Audio question comes out in my favor (fingers crossed).
I would rather do this design once, and I do have some time to wait, but curious how long before the "fixed" Pi4s would be out?
Thanks in advance,
Bob
The additional resistor is about the size of a pin head. No impact on mounting options.

noggin
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:38 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:26 am
hardwaremack-orginal wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:58 pm
...screen apparently will only do 4k@30hz through the HDMI cable...
Why the hell should one want to get more than 30Hz on an LCD screen?
LCDs don't flicker by design.
We are here in a RasPi, not on a gaming freaks forum.
Err - to watch 2160p50 and 2160p60 video ?

(The Pi has been a popular video playback solution for HD content, it now looks set to be one for UHD content if HDR YCrCb 4:2:2 12-bit or 4:2:0 10-bit output can be supported)

2160p50 and 2160p60 (i.e. 4K 50 and 4K 60) are standard video formats which content is being shot and created in, and which the Pi 4B can decode. It would seem a bit odd to not want to watch this content at 50Hz or 60Hz...

The Wimbledon Centre Court coverage has been 2160p50 all tournament - some people might quite like to watch that on their Pi4B!

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rin67630
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:48 pm

noggin wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:38 am
The Wimbledon Centre Court coverage has been 2160p50 all tournament - some people might quite like to watch that on their Pi4B!
Really? Did they succeed?
I am not an expert, but that surely occurred on Pay-TV, didn't it?
So the RPi should be able to decode# PayTV and render the broadcast@4K/60FPS...
Which application would do? Please tell me!

theentitledones
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:47 am
marsman2020 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:57 pm
Having lived the original Pi Model B with the polyfuses causing USB power issues and the OTG-based host port on the SoC causing lots of USB software issues....I'm very disappointed that the Pi 4 was designed in a way that violates the USB-C specification.
Worth noting that this was not a deliberate design flaw, but accidental, so saying it was designed in this way doesn't really give the whole story. It will be fixed in a later board revision.

Did you know the Nintendo Switch also has a non-compliant USB-C port? Maybe even for the same reason!
Would you care to ellaborate, how the fact that Nintendo Switch has issues with it's USB-C port, justifies this mistake? I fail to understand your point here.

Worth noting that, even tough it's not deliberate, it amateuristic to say the least. How hard can it be to copy the reference desing? How hard it is to check your work before you make it to a product? What kind of QC you would and can expect from UK company, that by according to them, is for the community rather than for the profit?
Really how hard it to take resposibility on you own mistakes? Or learn from them? Maybe, the whole athmosphere of stiking your head in the sand, instead of taking responsibility of your mistakes is to blame. How you can learn from your mistakes, if you can't even admid making them in the first place? And no, the mistake did not magically dissapear, just because you chose not to beleave in it or own it, it does not work like that here in the real life.

Errare humanum est, so the mistakes are understantable, but the way, yet again, the mistake is handled is a discrace. Yet again, the paying customers are the ones that take the hit, while the ones resposible and gaining profit from the product, shrug their shoulders like nothing even happened.

To all the fanboys ( and there are plenty!) all the bs and downplaying in the world won't still make the Raspberry pi 4 USB-C compliant and you have been, again, sold a defective product that the people who are resposible of this, have absolutely zero intentions to make this right, just like in the past with the other issues.

By statin the facts, I am most like going to be banned and the post deleted (like it seems it's custom here), while all un-justifiend personal attacks from the fanboys will stay and not get the attention of the moderators. Like you do on a honest, welcoming and inclusive forum...

dickon
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:05 pm

It was on iPlayer. I don't know if the Pi 4's H.265 decoder supports HLG, though.

And as for p60 over p30 for general desktop use: I find p30 intolerably laggy. To my eyes, much less than p50 isn't smooth.

hippy
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:47 pm

Not sure what any of this video stuff has to do with USB-C, but for those, like me, who have little technical knowledge about USB-C, the complexities of CC1 / CC2 / CC / VCONN configurations, I found this to be a quite useful resource for getting up to speed, albeit somewhat technical -

ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00001953a.pdf

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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:06 pm

theentitledones wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:47 am
marsman2020 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:57 pm
Having lived the original Pi Model B with the polyfuses causing USB power issues and the OTG-based host port on the SoC causing lots of USB software issues....I'm very disappointed that the Pi 4 was designed in a way that violates the USB-C specification.
Worth noting that this was not a deliberate design flaw, but accidental, so saying it was designed in this way doesn't really give the whole story. It will be fixed in a later board revision.

Did you know the Nintendo Switch also has a non-compliant USB-C port? Maybe even for the same reason!
Would you care to ellaborate, how the fact that Nintendo Switch has issues with it's USB-C port, justifies this mistake? I fail to understand your point here.

Worth noting that, even tough it's not deliberate, it amateuristic to say the least. How hard can it be to copy the reference desing? How hard it is to check your work before you make it to a product? What kind of QC you would and can expect from UK company, that by according to them, is for the community rather than for the profit?
Really how hard it to take resposibility on you own mistakes? Or learn from them? Maybe, the whole athmosphere of stiking your head in the sand, instead of taking responsibility of your mistakes is to blame. How you can learn from your mistakes, if you can't even admid making them in the first place? And no, the mistake did not magically dissapear, just because you chose not to beleave in it or own it, it does not work like that here in the real life.

Errare humanum est, so the mistakes are understantable, but the way, yet again, the mistake is handled is a discrace. Yet again, the paying customers are the ones that take the hit, while the ones resposible and gaining profit from the product, shrug their shoulders like nothing even happened.

To all the fanboys ( and there are plenty!) all the bs and downplaying in the world won't still make the Raspberry pi 4 USB-C compliant and you have been, again, sold a defective product that the people who are resposible of this, have absolutely zero intentions to make this right, just like in the past with the other issues.

By statin the facts, I am most like going to be banned and the post deleted (like it seems it's custom here), while all un-justifiend personal attacks from the fanboys will stay and not get the attention of the moderators. Like you do on a honest, welcoming and inclusive forum...
I debated whether to let this first post through (generally, we don't let inaccurate rants through when its a first post, but this was such a good one!), but there are a couple of points that need clarifying.

We have admitted this is a mistake in the board design, and it's not currently fully USB-C compliant, and we will be fixing it in a board revision. Not sure why the way it's being dealt with is a mistake. Most people won't see the issue, and we are going to fix it for those that do want to use that very specific type of charging lead. We have taken responsibility - we are fixing it. We won't be recalling boards, as it's such a minor problem, but if this problem really affects you (why? Just use an adapter or different lead!) you can take the Pi4 back to where you got it and get a refund. And buy again in a few months when the fix for this specific issue is in place.

So, there clearly no 'heads in sand' here.

The reference to Nintendo was simply to highlight the fact that even massive players can make mistakes. Happens all the time.

And as for the comment about banning and post being deleted, not happened yet. Happy?
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hippy
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:24 pm

theentitledones wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:00 pm
Really how hard it to take resposibility on you own mistakes? Or learn from them? Maybe, the whole athmosphere of stiking your head in the sand, instead of taking responsibility of your mistakes is to blame. How you can learn from your mistakes, if you can't even admid making them in the first place?
I am not going to comment on the mistake having been made, but none of the above seems to align with what I've heard, read and seen. I have not witnessed the RPT denying a mistake was made. In fact, on the contrary.

And, from reading articles by bloggers who seem to know a lot about implementing USB-C, while embarrassing, the RPT seem to be far from the first to have made a mistake or overlooked something in its implementation.

On that, one thing I spotted in the Microchip App Note I posted earlier -

"VCONN is a 5V ... The VCONN power supply can be supplied in one of two ways: a) If a valid Rp/Rd connection is detected on one of the CC pins, the VCONN supply can be blindly routed to the opposite CC pin".

Might be worth getting whoever is managing the fix to double-check what happens if 5V is blindly put out on VCONN, esp with respect to the 3V PMIC analogue inputs. Not saying it's a problem, or they haven't already noted this issue, but thought best to mention it.

epoch1970
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:33 pm

That's a good name. I do like a bit of entitlement myself.
But why the plural? Isn't it usually the other way around, one person, many accounts?
"S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème." Les Shadoks, J. Rouxel

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hardwaremack-orginal
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:43 pm

I want 4k@60hz, not FPS........
so my mouse cursor does not track all sluggish and weird.
that is the only reason. 1080p@30 hz has the same mouse tracking issue.
1080p@60 hz mouse tracks great.

That is my story, and im sticking to it...

## btw, Grumble, Grumble, Get off my lawn! --- Kids these days...

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IOTON
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:00 pm

4k 60hz is great

I use 42 inch 4k LG computer monitor for work(CAD, big assemblies 500+ parts) and can't return to 30hz after I've seen 60hz.

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hardwaremack-orginal
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Re: I didn't think the usb c power thing was a big deal...

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:20 pm

I have never really had to deal with 30hz refresh rates before... even when i was using a .28dp 1024x768 ibm screen it was still at 60hz. heck my 1984 Macintosh 128k has a 60hz refresh rate.... well i think it does...
http://maccaps.com/MacCaps/DIY_Informat ... l_1984.pdf

Also, I know one of the reasons the hardware AB mod for the Color Classic was so annoying, let alone causing more heat and stressing the heck out of the components.... It increased the resolution but it decrease the refresh rate to 47hz and that was annoying!.

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