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Gavinmc42
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:37 am

you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid
Yep, let's move to Harmony OS :D
I do hope the source code is not in Chinese.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
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jcyr
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:17 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:34 am
What has the percentage got to do with it? Only takes one....you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid about Google's work.
Huh?
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

hippy
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:26 pm

jcyr wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:34 am
What has the percentage got to do with it? Only takes one....you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid about Google's work.
Huh?
I believe that was shortform for - if one chooses to believe anything Google has touched must be avoided, anything any Google employee has touched must be avoided, then anything touched by just one Google employee must be avoided. And thus Linux must be avoided, because Google and plenty of Google employees have touched that.

Musketeer
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:43 pm

Using lot of stuff closed sourced is something to think about definitely today...
Linux is like woman - both wants 180 % of your time...
You want speed Java 9.8x? Throw it out of some Window(s)!
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PeterO
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:48 pm

jcyr wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:34 am
What has the percentage got to do with it? Only takes one....you should not be using Linux if you are so paranoid about Google's work.
Huh?
jcyr wrote: Certainly not the majority, nor the core devs... Unlike Chromium.


You seem to be saying that greater than 50% (i.e. A Majority) of devs working for Google means you won't use the software.

PeterO
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jcyr
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:26 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:48 pm

You seem to be saying that greater than 50% (i.e. A Majority) of devs working for Google means you won't use the software.

PeterO
Google == Microsoft in the 80s...

I try to avoid all things where Google has influence. I still have separate Gmail account serving as a junk mail honeypot and it seems to do exceptionally well at attracting junk mail... wonder why?
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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PeterO
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:58 pm

jcyr wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:26 pm
I still have separate Gmail account serving as a junk mail honeypot and it seems to do exceptionally well at attracting junk mail... wonder why?
Probably because someone you know got hacked !
PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

ejolson
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:19 pm

jcyr wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:26 pm
PeterO wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:48 pm

You seem to be saying that greater than 50% (i.e. A Majority) of devs working for Google means you won't use the software.

PeterO
Google == Microsoft in the 80s...

I try to avoid all things where Google has influence. I still have separate Gmail account serving as a junk mail honeypot and it seems to do exceptionally well at attracting junk mail... wonder why?
Eventually Google will hire a CEO from the marketing side that is more interested in monetising market share than expanding it. That will eventually render the company harmless if not irrelevant, for details see Microsoft and IBM.

In a way I'm glad none of this has anything to do with the suitability of the Raspberry Pi 4B as a desktop replacement. At the same time, since the Raspberry Pi is the most popular general-purpose computer that uses a Unix-like operating system by default (other than the Macintosh), many people may choose it as their desktop computer because of that. Open source is clearly another consideration.

RetroBoyAdvance
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:30 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:19 pm
We spent a load of cash making Chromium work fast.
So do other browsers using chromium benefit from that or no?

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clicky
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:41 pm

I think this topic has outlived its purpose... What's the point talking about particular morality of each piece of software in topic that is supposed to show that Pi4 *can* be (disclaimer: for some people, under some not so strict circumstances) used as a desktop computer. :(

I'm been happily using this Pi4 (I am writing this on) for 5 days now - for web browsing (yes, Chromium), emails (Thunderbird), Python development (PyCharm), Java development (Idea), many command line linuxy stuff, installed KiCad to play with electronics, used Gimp very successfully to edit screenshots, used Chromium to listen to the radio, used Chromium for Slack, used Visual Studio Code for Javascript code, used VNC client to amend settings on my macmini server (and subsequently connect to it using Dolphin and 'smb://' extension(?), used LibreOffice for my invoices, used Squirrel SQL to access (for now) remote mssql-server (will move it to another Pi4 with 2GB), used PDF and Image viewers and generally didn't mind any of it as Pi4 handled it.

Oh, and, used, at the same time(!!!), GPIOs to experiment with 4 i2c busses defined as the same time, used SPI with connected nrf24L01 breakout board with python code to upload firmware to my hardware and to check distance at which I can still achieve connectivity.

What I haven't done (yet!) is to fire all my LibGDX projects on it to see the limits of GPU nor got enough time to write a showcase game for Pi4...

So, no matter of lots of moaning here - I did and can use Pi4 as a desktop computer. It is not the best desktop computer I owned, nor fastest or superior in almost any way - but still usable!

On the other hand - it is the cutest in many aspects! :D

- - -

Edit: so, maybe if we continue to post here about merits of different browsers or random, slightly obscure software which is not easily available for Pi - irrespective to Pi4 as Desktop computer - could moderator just close this topic, please?

bjtheone
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:37 pm

I have a Pi 3B+ and it seems to work just fine as a desktop computer. Has stayed in exactly the same place on my desktop, and been very well behaved. Is there some reason I should be concerned that the 4G 4B I have on order is going to be less well behaved?

Silliness aside, its all about horses for courses. Pi 3B+ is faster than the 8 year old laptop it replaced. Is much slower than my main Linux box.

Whining about the lack of some tool is just silly. Expecting the foundation to compile your particular tool suite, or declaring the end of the world as we know it if something is missing is even sillier. It is a product. If it does not meet your needs, don't buy it. Given the whole OSS bit, you likely can find a way to get an equivalent for most tools, for FREE. If that does not work for you, no one is stopping you from buying into Apple or Mircrosoft's walled gardens and buying commercial software.

It does work as a desktop computer for me.

ejolson
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:57 pm

clicky wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:41 pm
I think this topic has outlived its purpose...
My understanding is that the person who started a thread on this forum doesn't own it in the same way as some other places. At the same time, the original post sets the title for the thread, so you could change the title by editing the original post.

One typical title change is "Pi4 as Desktop computer [solved]" while a title change suitable for the present discussion might be "Browsers with tentacles on the Pi 4B." More reasonable would be "Desktop computing on the Pi 4 with open source software."

chuUK
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:42 pm

You could kill this thread, but I have found it useful. For me, this is the most important topic on the board.

The Pi may well be being used as a desktop computer, but I've never seen one in the many offices I have visited - not one. I think the Foundation would like to change that, and their marketing hints, nay declares in the strapline that this is your next desktop computer.


Please don't reply to complaints with the dismissive "you are doing it wrong". The guy above does have a point about Firefox being a steaming pile on the 4, but I avoid it so.... But, I do recognise the frustration the poster has whatever the reason.

For the growth of Pi, you need to be more understanding that people who have problems with the machine not acting as say Mint (at the least) isn't dumbness but that they can't b bothered to fix problems that they fixed 20 years ago.

Welcome the office drones with open arms.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:21 am

The guy above does have a point about Firefox being a steaming pile on the 4, but I avoid it so...
I found it usable on a Pi3B+ with Gentoo64 and now the new Gentoo64 1.50 is working on Pi4 :D
I expect Chromium and Firefox might be able to be tweaked a bit mote now.

Just a few minutes ago this fan boy got a new 2GB Pi4 , case, the new power supply, mouse and keyboard.
I now have the full official Pi branded Desktop setup.
Time to retire this 1GB Pi4 to slave duty.

I see a market opportunity for Pi brand USB 3 storage and Monitors?
Pi brand 1Gbs network switches?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

andrum99
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:04 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:21 am
I see a market opportunity for Pi brand USB 3 storage and Monitors?
Pi brand 1Gbs network switches?
I think you're dreaming in Technicolor now :lol:

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:31 am

I think you're dreaming in Technicolor now :lol:
Not technicolour, white and that reddish/pink.
I did think of painting my monitors.

Is there a pantone number for the raspberry red?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

k-pi
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:18 am

Please don't reply to complaints with the dismissive "you are doing it wrong". The guy above does have a point about Firefox being a steaming pile on the 4, but I avoid it so.... But, I do recognise the frustration the poster has whatever the reason.

For the growth of Pi, you need to be more understanding that people who have problems with the machine not acting as say Mint (at the least) isn't dumbness but that they can't b bothered to fix problems that they fixed 20 years ago.
The 'problem' we have on here is that we are conversing with programmers, (& some tinkerers), not your average computer user.

Being promoted as being a 'desktop system' is a lot different to being a learning 'toy' - these days it is expected to just work out of the box.

The technicians/programmers on here don't seem to understand that, as they 'live' in their own little worlds - but Linux/BSD computing is no longer just for the 'nerds', normal people are using it to do their daily 'work'. 8-)

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:31 am

The technicians/programmers on here don't seem to understand that, as they 'live' in their own little worlds - but Linux/BSD computing is no longer just for the 'nerds', normal people are using it to do their daily 'work'. 8-)
Normal people can learn to fix Linux, it is easier than trying to fix Windows :lol:
The level of "fix" is just time and skill, knowledge and lots of googling.

We will soon have big problems, the PI4 is becoming a 64bit OS as well as 32 so many more Linux distributions will end up running on it.
Unless they get support from Champions, some will take longer to make it to the Pi Desktop.

Diversity in Desktops is about to hit the Pi4.
And Raspbian Buster is not bad on the old 3B+ either.

The Pi's have been around for some time now.
The kids are growing up using them and going out into the workplace with fearless Linux skills.
Is one of these first kids now working in RPF?
I'm not good with names, most nerds are not :lol:
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

FPSychotic
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:07 pm

Obviously rpi4 is a desktop computer, maybe like you or not how it looks, maybe linux dont like you and you prefer Windows, it is not a gaming computer or a workstation, but you can play, work and even earn a salary doing things with it.

Heater
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:12 pm

k-pi,

The 'problem' we have on here is that we are conversing with programmers, (& some tinkerers), not your average computer user.

The "problem" we have here, if indeed it is a problem, I'm glad you put that in quotes, is that the average computer user does not use a computer.

Sure they have a PC, laptop, tablet or phone, now a Rapberry Pi, a computer, but they don't computer with it, they use it as a gadget to surf the web, hang out on facebook, play games, watch TV, etc, etc. The fact that it is a computer is incidental to them.

The Pi is advertised as "desk top computer". I took that to mean computer on my desktop, for computing/programming, others take it to mean surf the web, hang out on facebook, play games, watch TV, etc, etc.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

bjtheone
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:24 pm

k-pi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:18 am
Please don't reply to complaints with the dismissive "you are doing it wrong". The guy above does have a point about Firefox being a steaming pile on the 4, but I avoid it so.... But, I do recognise the frustration the poster has whatever the reason.

For the growth of Pi, you need to be more understanding that people who have problems with the machine not acting as say Mint (at the least) isn't dumbness but that they can't b bothered to fix problems that they fixed 20 years ago.
The 'problem' we have on here is that we are conversing with programmers, (& some tinkerers), not your average computer user.

Being promoted as being a 'desktop system' is a lot different to being a learning 'toy' - these days it is expected to just work out of the box.

The technicians/programmers on here don't seem to understand that, as they 'live' in their own little worlds - but Linux/BSD computing is no longer just for the 'nerds', normal people are using it to do their daily 'work'. 8-)
As a frame of reference I have been "doing computers" since before PCs were a thing. Have been involved with Linux since it became available as a natural extension of stuff I was doing with Unix. In the earlier days it was not a particularly friendly environment, but then again neither were PCs prior to 3.1.

I would absolutely state that a Pi 4B if you bought the "full kit", assembled all the bits, plugged in a monitor, and have an internet connection available is a full desktop solution. It provides all the regular software functionality, and just works. This is especially true for a home user that main use case is browser.

Is it a different solution than Windows provides. Absolutely. However, I think you may be missing the point that for many "normal people", it does not matter. Case in point, my wife uses a Windows laptop, on it she does email, web surfing, and uses a spreadsheet to fill out timesheets. She is using Windows, as that is the interface she learned and is comfortable with. The fact that she is using Chrome and LibreOffice is totally transparent to her. My 10 year old switches between a Chromebook, an iPad, his mom's laptop, a Pi running Debian with Mate, and and a variety of laptops running Ubuntu. The app that they both run 95% of the time is a browser.

kenkrsme
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:28 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:24 pm
k-pi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:18 am
Please don't reply to complaints with the dismissive "you are doing it wrong". The guy above does have a point about Firefox being a steaming pile on the 4, but I avoid it so.... But, I do recognise the frustration the poster has whatever the reason.

For the growth of Pi, you need to be more understanding that people who have problems with the machine not acting as say Mint (at the least) isn't dumbness but that they can't b bothered to fix problems that they fixed 20 years ago.
The 'problem' we have on here is that we are conversing with programmers, (& some tinkerers), not your average computer user.

Being promoted as being a 'desktop system' is a lot different to being a learning 'toy' - these days it is expected to just work out of the box.

The technicians/programmers on here don't seem to understand that, as they 'live' in their own little worlds - but Linux/BSD computing is no longer just for the 'nerds', normal people are using it to do their daily 'work'. 8-)
As a frame of reference I have been "doing computers" since before PCs were a thing. Have been involved with Linux since it became available as a natural extension of stuff I was doing with Unix. In the earlier days it was not a particularly friendly environment, but then again neither were PCs prior to 3.1.

I would absolutely state that a Pi 4B if you bought the "full kit", assembled all the bits, plugged in a monitor, and have an internet connection available is a full desktop solution. It provides all the regular software functionality, and just works. This is especially true for a home user that main use case is browser.

Is it a different solution than Windows provides. Absolutely. However, I think you may be missing the point that for many "normal people", it does not matter. Case in point, my wife uses a Windows laptop, on it she does email, web surfing, and uses a spreadsheet to fill out timesheets. She is using Windows, as that is the interface she learned and is comfortable with. The fact that she is using Chrome and LibreOffice is totally transparent to her. My 10 year old switches between a Chromebook, an iPad, his mom's laptop, a Pi running Debian with Mate, and and a variety of laptops running Ubuntu. The app that they both run 95% of the time is a browser.
a computer is a computer, the os only changes how you get the same tasks done. when i switched from windows to mac some years ago, i kind of realized i could do all the same things, but the name of the programs used changed. using a pi is no different.

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Like I said in another thread, if there's a problem, please give details. "A guy at work had a problem with chromium" or anything along those lines is not something that can be investigated.

An office full of people here do not see most of the problems you've mentioned. Quite a few of them use the pi4 to do the vast majority of their work.

If you're trying to run a video editing suite on the pi and expecting the same level of performance as a PC, there is an element of "you're doing it wrong".

Musketeer
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:10 pm

I did a lot of copywriting on yie oldie Pi 2...

Pis are becoming more and more able as time goes!
Linux is like woman - both wants 180 % of your time...
You want speed Java 9.8x? Throw it out of some Window(s)!
My girlfriend is terribly unmature - she always sinks my boats in bathtub!

chuUK
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Re: Pi4 as Desktop computer

Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:11 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:29 pm
Like I said in another thread, if there's a problem, please give details. "A guy at work had a problem with chromium" or anything along those lines is not something that can be investigated.

An office full of people here do not see most of the problems you've mentioned. Quite a few of them use the pi4 to do the vast majority of their work.

If you're trying to run a video editing suite on the pi and expecting the same level of performance as a PC, there is an element of "you're doing it wrong".
Same. All 3 sentences are textbook. I give up. 3 of the 8 Pi's we bought have been replaced with the previous PC's running Mint. Say what you like, but the rest are heading to a local charity.

I could just about carry the flag for the 4, but to not get any kind of constructive support and instead stream of you're thick, you don't know what you are doing, etc. I do know what I'm doing. I'm getting rid of the remaining Pi4's going back to Mint and will probably never consider Pi again due to this experience.

(moderator removed trolling and threatening language that was worth a week ban)

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