vintozver
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:16 am
Location: Bellevue, WA, USA

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:21 pm

Any ETA when to expect PXE and USB/MS boot on PI4? Would appreciate even the ballpark.
My lovely 3B+ units boot and work like charm from network, would like to have the same on 4B :)

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 36820
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:28 pm

vintozver wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:21 pm
Any ETA when to expect PXE and USB/MS boot on PI4? Would appreciate even the ballpark.
Let's take a look in the crystal ball I've just borrowed a tiny one from my wife (mine was destroyed in the "Great Crystal Ball Disaster of 1989").

Wait.

Wait ..

Wait ...



Oooh ...
Wow ..
OMG .



The mists are clearing "Some time between now and August 2020".
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24581
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:32 pm

vintozver wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:21 pm
Any ETA when to expect PXE and USB/MS boot on PI4? Would appreciate even the ballpark.
No.

As has been stated quite a few times already in this thread.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

dickon
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:11 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:24 pm
dickon wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:52 pm

'SD boot', if for no other reason than to depoliticise it a bit. 'Hybrid' seems to have an emotional attachment to some people here.
How do you intend to use that to distinguish between booting and running with everything on the SD from booting with minimal data on the SD card and everything else (and running) from an attached USB MSD?
I don't. Boot, as you're well aware, != root.

SD boot, USB root. Or, in my case, SD boot, NFS root. It isn't rocket science.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11249
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:30 pm

dickon wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:11 pm
I don't. Boot, as you're well aware, != root.
I'm also aware that "to boot[strap]" is not a reference to the /boot partition.

ejolson
Posts: 4034
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:40 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:32 pm
vintozver wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:21 pm
Any ETA when to expect PXE and USB/MS boot on PI4? Would appreciate even the ballpark.
No.

As has been stated quite a few times already in this thread.
It may be important at some point in time for a company to stop pulling rabbits out of a hat and provide a roadmap for future products that business partners and school boards can rely on. After more than five successful product releases, the reputation of the team behind the Raspberry Pi is well-enough established, in my opinion, that a road map would be respected and well received.

Note that I have posted the above, not to disagree or argue the truth of what you have said, but instead hoping to bring it to your attention and to the foundation in general what befits there might be in providing a product road map. Of course, as is often the case with free advice, I could be wrong and mistaken.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24581
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:32 am

ejolson wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:40 am
jamesh wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:32 pm
vintozver wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:21 pm
Any ETA when to expect PXE and USB/MS boot on PI4? Would appreciate even the ballpark.
No.

As has been stated quite a few times already in this thread.
It may be important at some point in time for a company to stop pulling rabbits out of a hat and provide a roadmap for future products that business partners and school boards can rely on. After more than five successful product releases, the reputation of the team behind the Raspberry Pi is well-enough established, in my opinion, that a road map would be respected and well received.

Note that I have posted the above, not to disagree or argue the truth of what you have said, but instead hoping to bring it to your attention and to the foundation in general what befits there might be in providing a product road map. Of course, as is often the case with free advice, I could be wrong and mistaken.
The problem with roadmaps is something always happens to make them inaccurate, sometimes very inaccurate. So they cannot be relied on, so are, for most people, useless for planning purposes.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

bjtheone
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 11:28 pm
Location: The Frozen North (AKA Canada)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:56 am

ejolson wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:40 am
It may be important at some point in time for a company to stop pulling rabbits out of a hat and provide a roadmap for future products that business partners and school boards can rely on. After more than five successful product releases, the reputation of the team behind the Raspberry Pi is well-enough established, in my opinion, that a road map would be respected and well received.

Note that I have posted the above, not to disagree or argue the truth of what you have said, but instead hoping to bring it to your attention and to the foundation in general what befits there might be in providing a product road map. Of course, as is often the case with free advice, I could be wrong and mistaken.
Speaking as a former manager of CAD tools for a large telecom company, I tended to be fairly skeptical of roadmaps and future plans, before companies were at least at the engineering prototype stage. We had NDA's with most of our suppliers and certainly were aware of what they planned. However, we did not build their roadmap level commitments into our internal plans. You have to plan around what you know you can get.

This is further muddied by the mix of home users, tabloid quality tech press, commercial and education users. I would not be surprised if the foundation was discussing future plans and deliverables with large users, under NDA. I am not surprised at all that they are very tight lipped about deliverables to the general public. Imagine what would happen if they over promised and under delivered. Look at how, the tabloid tech press has covered USB C'gate in their hunt of clicks. Was it a screw up, yup, is it a show stopper, nope. Would you even notice it if you used the official adaptor, nope.

vintozver
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:16 am
Location: Bellevue, WA, USA

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:36 pm

Let me ask another question.
Would you consider three third party help with NDA or whatever signed or how much money do you need to make it happen? Budget ...

I guess we are talking about "charity" (right?) and I may pull some strings here.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 4404
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:32 pm

vintozver wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:36 pm
Let me ask another question.
Would you consider three third party help with NDA or whatever signed or how much money do you need to make it happen? Budget ...

I guess we are talking about "charity" (right?) and I may pull some strings here.
RPF is a charity that owns the trading company (RPT).
Here is not the place to negotiate donations to encourage particular developments, try the "Contact Us" page linked on every forum page.

Budget? I don't speak for RPF or RPT, but I guess a full-time software engineer costs (with overheads) around £100,000 a year. I do not know how long a period you would have to fund for an extra post to be considered.

Since USB boot is already planned, it's not clear that any donation would actually expedite it -- USB boot is likely to be complete before an engineer could be in post and ready to code the new bootloader.
Signature retired

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24581
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 am

vintozver wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:36 pm
Let me ask another question.
Would you consider three third party help with NDA or whatever signed or how much money do you need to make it happen? Budget ...

I guess we are talking about "charity" (right?) and I may pull some strings here.
No, I do not believe we would do that. We have an engineer very experienced in this stuff (he wrote the current bootloader), and when he gets to it, it will get done. Adding more money won't get us an engineer who can parachute in and start working on it straight away. Because there are none.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

User avatar
clicky
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:34 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:27 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 am
vintozver wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:36 pm
Let me ask another question.
Would you consider three third party help with NDA or whatever signed or how much money do you need to make it happen? Budget ...

I guess we are talking about "charity" (right?) and I may pull some strings here.
No, I do not believe we would do that. We have an engineer very experienced in this stuff (he wrote the current bootloader), and when he gets to it, it will get done. Adding more money won't get us an engineer who can parachute in and start working on it straight away. Because there are none.
Is that open source code? I'm just curious, really... If it is - they, in theory, everyone could go over there and experiment. If some proprietary info is needed, then, well... This question really is purely academic and I wouldn't like to see this topic slow down and stop.
Without it Pi4 discussion would be somehow... Empty? ;)

User avatar
PeterO
Posts: 5324
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:29 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 am
vintozver wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:36 pm
Let me ask another question.
Would you consider three third party help with NDA or whatever signed or how much money do you need to make it happen? Budget ...

I guess we are talking about "charity" (right?) and I may pull some strings here.
No, I do not believe we would do that. We have an engineer very experienced in this stuff (he wrote the current bootloader), and when he gets to it, it will get done. Adding more money won't get us an engineer who can parachute in and start working on it straight away. Because there are none.
What ? No obligatory reference to "The Mythical Man Month" ? :lol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

nickbp
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:05 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:45 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 am
No, I do not believe we would do that. We have an engineer very experienced in this stuff (he wrote the current bootloader), and when he gets to it, it will get done.
Is the intent to get to it on the order of weeks or months? Asking because I'm unsure if I should just go ahead and put in an order for SD cards in order to hold the boot partition on a few units, when either PXE or USB support would allow me to avoid needing to deal with it.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24581
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:09 am

nickbp wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:45 am
jamesh wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 am
No, I do not believe we would do that. We have an engineer very experienced in this stuff (he wrote the current bootloader), and when he gets to it, it will get done.
Is the intent to get to it on the order of weeks or months? Asking because I'm unsure if I should just go ahead and put in an order for SD cards in order to hold the boot partition on a few units, when either PXE or USB support would allow me to avoid needing to deal with it.
PXE is in progress, but still quite a bit of work to do, a small number of months. USB hasn't been started yet, so is some further months away.

Just buy some small and cheap SD cards. Not point in delaying for the minor costs involved.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

User avatar
B.Goode
Posts: 9020
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: UK

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:09 am

{ Removed. Preempted by response from Moderator/Engineer. }
Last edited by B.Goode on Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24581
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:10 am

clicky wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:27 am
jamesh wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 am
vintozver wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:36 pm
Let me ask another question.
Would you consider three third party help with NDA or whatever signed or how much money do you need to make it happen? Budget ...

I guess we are talking about "charity" (right?) and I may pull some strings here.
No, I do not believe we would do that. We have an engineer very experienced in this stuff (he wrote the current bootloader), and when he gets to it, it will get done. Adding more money won't get us an engineer who can parachute in and start working on it straight away. Because there are none.
Is that open source code? I'm just curious, really... If it is - they, in theory, everyone could go over there and experiment. If some proprietary info is needed, then, well... This question really is purely academic and I wouldn't like to see this topic slow down and stop.
Without it Pi4 discussion would be somehow... Empty? ;)
Bootloader is all closed source.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

andrum99
Posts: 983
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:41 pm

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:14 am

nickbp wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:45 am
jamesh wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 am
No, I do not believe we would do that. We have an engineer very experienced in this stuff (he wrote the current bootloader), and when he gets to it, it will get done.
Is the intent to get to it on the order of weeks or months? Asking because I'm unsure if I should just go ahead and put in an order for SD cards in order to hold the boot partition on a few units, when either PXE or USB support would allow me to avoid needing to deal with it.
Raspberry Pi's don't do PXE boot: it's Ethernet boot, but not PXE boot.

dickon
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:30 am

andrum99 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:14 am
Raspberry Pi's don't do PXE boot: it's Ethernet boot, but not PXE boot.
At last! Someone else who understands the difference...

User avatar
thagrol
Posts: 2099
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:41 pm
Location: Darkest Somerset, UK
Contact: Website

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:11 pm

dickon wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:30 am
andrum99 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:14 am
Raspberry Pi's don't do PXE boot: it's Ethernet boot, but not PXE boot.
At last! Someone else who understands the difference...
Care to enlighten those of us who may not?
Attempts to contact me outside of thes forums will be ignored unless signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters

dickon
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 pm

The Pre-eXecution Environment is a rather grandiosly-named standard developed by Intel back in the early '90s for booting DOS on x86 PCs. It uses BOOTP / DHCP and TFTP to load a kernel over the network (which is the bit you see), but its actually mostly about presenting a standardised BIOS extension ROM and driver to the BIOS and thence DOS to handle that.

The likes of Sun and SGI were doing network booting with BOOTP and TFTP long, long before Intel got into the act. Calling what they -- and the Pi -- do 'PXE' is incorrect, albeit with more or less the same outcome.

bjtheone
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 11:28 pm
Location: The Frozen North (AKA Canada)

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:12 pm

Its a toMAYtoe toMAtoe kinda thing. PXE is a specific type of network boot. The end result is boot over a network. And it was over things other than ethernet. I still have nasty flashbacks to token ring networks....

dickon
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:20 pm

Yeah, pretty much. Nothing other than x86 actually PXEs -- as nothing other than x86 has anything as stunningly braindead as a BIOS and x86 architecture -- but the term caught on to mean 'DHCP and TFTP a kernel and boot it' more generically. These days, of course, the kernel is often a bootloader -- pxelinux.0 for example -- but the original purpose was to boot a DOS image of one sort or another.

ejolson
Posts: 4034
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:36 pm

dickon wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:20 pm
Yeah, pretty much. Nothing other than x86 actually PXEs -- as nothing other than x86 has anything as stunningly braindead as a BIOS and x86 architecture -- but the term caught on to mean 'DHCP and TFTP a kernel and boot it' more generically. These days, of course, the kernel is often a bootloader -- pxelinux.0 for example -- but the original purpose was to boot a DOS image of one sort or another.
I think there is now also an EFI PXE boot environment that, that presents EFI instead of BIOS system calls to the loaded binary. Which is worse is a matter of opinion.

dickon
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Raspberry Pi 4 usb boot?

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:10 pm

I am filled with unimaginable levels of joy at this news.

Return to “General discussion”