Musketeer
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Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:27 pm

On old phones we had 1 x round small charger + 1 x data port, now is common just ONE microUSB...

Is USB-C really better / best way to solve all this?
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Andyroo

Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:43 pm

Depends if you want to live in dongle hell as some Apple users do.

By the time most devices are shipped as USB-C then something else with a different connector will be out and it begins all over again.

The computer industry thrives (sorry profits) from change. Manufacturers have no wish to stop change as that would limit sale of new kit to existing and new customers under the Fear Of Missing Out marketing process.

Not cynical - just been there, got the t-shirt :lol:

Musketeer
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:47 pm

Precisely reason why USB_C little worries me on RP4...

Why invent something already invented? Even 3.5 mm audio jack is round and supported forever, so why change old stuff for USB-C.
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Andyroo

Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:51 pm

From what I have seen, two things drove the move to USB-C on the Pi4

1) The increased reliability of the connector
2) The amount of current the connector handles

I would also guess cost plays a part as the socket is mass produced though I was surprised to read that finding a good power supply was hard...

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:56 pm

Shades of all the assertions that the Pi just *had* to go to a barrel connector, as they are "standard". To which some of us pointed out that standards are a wonderful thing. There are so many to choose from...

dickon
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:24 pm

USB-C has a good future ahead of it. It's a robust connector with some really nice features: you get some very high-speed data rates, and you have the ability to run non-USB protocols over the same cabling. Hence the discussions elsewhere about possibly running HDMI / DisplayPort signals over the Pi4's connector (can't happen with this revision of the silicon, and don't get your hopes up). I strongly suspect we'll be seeing these things for the next couple of decades; it's a very, very flexible solution to a lot of problems.

It also supports some cute tricks with power: power can be delivered from either direction, regardless of which end is the logical host, and with some clever waggling of the power lines, various voltages and currents can be delivered to the device which needs it.

And you can plug it in either way around. That's me sold, frankly.

All in all, I think this is the best we're going to get for a very, very long time.

Andyroo

Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:46 pm

VESA have just confirmed Display Port 2.0 will be available over USB-C connectors.

https://news.slashdot.org/story/19/06/2 ... -for-4khdr

dickon
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:55 pm

I'm not surprised. Everything is a high-speed serial bus these days; you just need protocol converters on either end to handle the right packetisation, plus a bit of clock negotiation, and you're done.

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solar3000
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:11 pm

Well, this has been around for 200 years. It was invented by Benjamin Franklyn:
USB2-1.png
USB2-1.png (28.85 KiB) Viewed 2485 times
Antikythera

dickon
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:18 pm

That wasn't invented by Benjamin Franklyn.

You're thinking of mini-USB.

Andyroo

Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:03 am

That dates me - I remember both being introduced and the rush to update Win 98 :oops:

Timescale
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:07 am

Andyroo wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:43 pm
Depends if you want to live in dongle hell as some Apple users do.
There is no such thing really. When it comes to supporting interfaces and standards, chances are that it will be supported by Apple for much longer than the competition. This non argument just is mindless Apple bashing. Pre magsafe charging was uniformly supported for a decade, so was magsafe, firewire 400 and 800 just under, USB type A was standard from 98 and the 30 pin connector more then a decade after which lightning too over which has been supported for 8 years.

When do I use a dongle with my apple stuff? When connecting my ADB keyboard from the early 90's to a modern desktop machine. The majority of other peripherals are either cheap to replace or wireless. Nobody who does not want to uses dongles.

As for the main question, I do not think it is about physical standards anymore, at least not for much longer. The usb-c connector now does duty not only as the new USB standard but also as a display port, a high amp charging interface and a PCI bus/thunderbolt port.

Do I think a future RPi will have nothing but USB-C type connectors around its perimeter? Actually, Yes I do!

chwe
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:47 am

Timescale wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:07 am
There is no such thing really. When it comes to supporting interfaces and standards, chances are that it will be supported by Apple for much longer than the competition. This non argument just is mindless Apple bashing.
USB-C is such a good connector, apple could give their notebooks two of them.. :lol: Honestly this one usb-c port is fooling your customers.. The magsafe was great charging connector.. I assume it saved thousands of macbooks and lightning was how microUSB should've look like. I don't think USB-C will be the only connector of the future.. There's still a bunch of stuff where the USB-C makes actually not that much sense (more for stuff like HDDs etc.)..

Dongle hell? I think it's more a chance to get rid of the dongle hell.. Remember those days when we had 10 different memory cards for digital cameras? It was a pain.. Same counts for display output. When I had to give a presentation somewhere I always had a HDMI-VGA HDMI-DVI and a normal HDMI cable.. You never knew what kind of connector they offered you. I really hope that this ends in the next 5 years once everyone agrees that we rely on USB-C.. :D

[moderated for language]

Timescale
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:58 am

Honestly this one usb-c port is fooling your customers.. The magsafe was great charging connector..
Magsafe was indeed magnificent for a period much longer than any other company cared to support a single standardized power connection for laptops, however that is not the issue, nor is it a problem. There are no magsafe to usb-c dongles!

Lets indeed hope that common sense prevails.

chwe
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:09 am

Timescale wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:58 am
There are no magsafe to usb-c dongles!
https://www.engadget.com/2019/02/11/thu ... derbolt-3/ :lol: one could argue, it is a magsafe dongle.. :D

But seriously.. they could give the cheaper macbooks more than one USB-C, that's a bit foolish..

but enough off-topic.. :D

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r3d4
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:26 am

Musketeer wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:27 pm
Is USB-C really better / best way to solve all this?
when you have replaced all other cables with usb c

usb D will be the next "innovation" better / best "solution"

:oops: :o
Andyroo wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:43 pm
By the time most devices are shipped as USB-C then something else with a different connector will be out and it begins all over again.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08 ... ndardized/

Musketeer
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:21 am

I am starting to see USB-C potential... Old round 5.1 mm + one wire is nowhere so future-proof. Who knows? Maybe is USB-C port really cheaper today?

I would gladly replace 5 ports on monitors for one too! :shock:
Linux is like woman - both wants 180 % of your time...
You want speed Java 9.8x? Throw it out of some Window(s)!
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Andyroo

Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:41 am

Well got the wrong :oops:

A quick check shows USB-C females at 66p each and USB-3 female blue at 59p - both reel mounted in lots of 2500

Musketeer
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:53 am

Maybe because are still relative novelty? + Not yet applicable economies of scale?

This reduction costs me like ONE quid!

https://rpishop.cz/raspberry-pi-4b/1592-OFI048.html
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okenido
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:46 pm

USB-C is quite good I hope it will replace this trash USB-B connector which is just a total facepalm.

USB-A is going to stay forever and my products will support it. No reason to change something that is used everywhere, is cheap and reliable.

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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:10 pm

okenido wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:46 pm
USB-C is quite good I hope it will replace this trash USB-B connector which is just a total facepalm.

USB-A is going to stay forever and my products will support it. No reason to change something that is used everywhere, is cheap and reliable.
What wrong with USB-B? A nice robust solid connector that just works. Or are you thinking of something else?
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rpdom
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:25 pm

I like USB-C. I have a few cables which I used to use on a laptop I no longer have access to. A cheap adaptor gave me USB3, USB-C and HDMI output from that laptop which meant I had fewer cables to plug in an out when I took it away from my desk.

Musketeer
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:30 pm

But consensus is the same for all of us: there is a hulluva LOT of USB types! AS with micro-microSD I expect in year "Mini-micro USB 4" or "micro-mini USB4" :roll:
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okenido
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:47 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:10 pm
okenido wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:46 pm
USB-C is quite good I hope it will replace this trash USB-B connector which is just a total facepalm.

USB-A is going to stay forever and my products will support it. No reason to change something that is used everywhere, is cheap and reliable.
What wrong with USB-B? A nice robust solid connector that just works. Or are you thinking of something else?
My experience has been terrible with them. Btw I talk about mini-usb B.

I always find them filmsy, they may have bad contacts after few insertions, some become loose quickly, on my smartphone now I need to put pressure on it to charge... I've tried several brands of cables, they really need extra care to survive a long time... USB-C seems more robust by design : larger contact pads, no risk putting stress on them by trying to plug the wrong way.

dickon
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Re: Will USB-C ever replace all other ports or just some?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:11 pm

Mini is pretty terrible (~5k cycles). Micro was better, despite being smaller, at ~10k cycles, and C retains that. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware, anyway.

As I said, I prefer C as it's reversible.

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