jerrm
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:26 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:22 pm
jerrm wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:00 pm
Could a Pi4 function as my desktop - not a chance.
What are you running that has no ARM and no Linux equivalent?
It's not a matter of availability or equivalence. It's a matter of speed and convenience, and ultimately cost. I can replace most of my spread sheets with a calculator and legal pads, but that doesn't mean I should.

I run a i7 with nvme drives and dual Gb Ethernet - and it's time for an upgrade. Do I need all that power all day, every day? Of course not, but when I do it's worth it. If is saves me an hour a month (it does easily) compared to a more conventional PC then the ROI is quick.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:53 pm

jerrm wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:26 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:22 pm
jerrm wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:00 pm
Could a Pi4 function as my desktop - not a chance.
What are you running that has no ARM and no Linux equivalent?
It's not a matter of availability or equivalence. It's a matter of speed and convenience, and ultimately cost. I can replace most of my spread sheets with a calculator and legal pads, but that doesn't mean I should.

I run a i7 with nvme drives and dual Gb Ethernet - and it's time for an upgrade. Do I need all that power all day, every day? Of course not, but when I do it's worth it. If is saves me an hour a month (it does easily) compared to a more conventional PC then the ROI is quick.
Going back to what Dr. Upton actually said, you are not using an "entry level" desktop computer. Even so, you might benchmark the time it takes to do a recalc on your spread sheet on a Pi4B2 or Pi4B4 to see how much difference there really is.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:46 am

ejolson,
As far as I can tell, the Pi is not being advertised as a desktop replacement.
Hmmm...The first thing one reads at raspberrypi.org since the Pi 4 launch is:

"Raspberry Pi 4 Your tiny, dual-display, desktop computer

https://www.raspberrypi.org/

Make of it what you will.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:32 am

If it came with Windows then I would be worried the plan was taking over the world.
Is Apple, Intel, AMD, nVidia etc trembling in their boots?

What percentage of the population have access to desktop computing power?
Depends how many have a Smart phone?
Today's phones, even the cheapies are desktop equivalent if your desktop is 5-10years old?

....as "a" desktop, not as the" latest, greatest" desktop computer.
Could it be said it is better than a Super computer?
How fast was the Cray 1? That was a Super computer.

Poetic license? Marketing hype? Fake News?
Who cares, make more Pi4B4's please, I need to replace some old Desktop Computers.
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r3d4
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:38 am

No true scots man would use a desktop pc with an arm cpu!
Gamegenorator wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:39 am
it's ARM processor makes it too incompatible with anything to make it a real desktop computer.
my brain architecture makes it too incomparable with anything to make it a real desktop computer.

so you are correct ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox

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Fidelius
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:59 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:36 am
I suppose I could be described as a 'power' user, in that I write software, build kernels etc. That, some would say, requires a decent desktop computer. And yet EVERYTHING I do nowadays can be done on a Pi4.
[..]

So, even though this is a tiny ARM based device, I would have no problems doing my actual job with it! In fact, I am going to be replacing my fathers very old Intel x86 Atom based computer (Acer Revo) with a Pi4, because it's so much faster. Everything he need to do can be done on the Pi4.

So yes, its can easily be used as a desktop computer.
+1

We use a Pi3 as the family''s little desktop computer (browsing, thunderbird-ing, libreoffice-ing, video-ing, printing, scanning, gaming, etc), which works nicely but could be faster and smoother (because only 1 GB RAM).

This is why soon we're going to upgrade this little desktop computer to a big desktop computer aka a Pi4 with 4 GB RAM.

Lovely little but powerful machines, really.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:28 am

OK I admit it I didn't RTFM - but hey, I had the real thing to play with. You can't expect common sense at my age (66).

The cheap bit is a bit misleading, with what do you compare it? A "cheap" PC at say £200? A bare bones PC, probably £200 as well.
So by the time you buy a RPi (£55), scrounge a USB-C psu (from my Chromebook), a uHDMI cable or adapter (I had one for use with a RPi Zero) and a heatsink (I had one that I cannibalised from a Sky box) so for me it cost £55!
My guess is that a "real person" would spend just over £100....

IMHO the performance as a desktop is a bonus - most of mine I use in headless mode as IoT devices!

I don't know that I would recommend the RPi4 as a desktop to a non RPi user. Just getting it going is too different from Windows to let a novice loose. My guess is that they would mess up just adding a USB disk and moving the user directories to it! No one but us geeks use a command line.....

Actually, its not what the "oldies" will do with it - I can't wait to see what the school kids come up with!!

okenido
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:14 am

well we're playing with words, if any computery-thing laying on a desk can be called a desktop computer then a caravan or a tent is the same as a house, why bother having different words for different things :)

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:18 am

My Asus ChromeBit hangs of the back of my TV

Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C Processor
Mali T764 GPU
2 GB Memory
16GB eMMC


I can surf the internet, watch videos, listen to music, use office applications, read emails.

Though it is not now a Desktop Computer :shock:
Retired disgracefully.....

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:30 am

The 0.0000000000000001 s after dying of my Intel Atom J3710 laptop used as Ubuntu station through USB + yie olde 200 GB IDE disc with reduction, I am buying this sweetie + some stuff around as MY DESKTOP computer!
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:08 pm

I haven't got a Pi 4B yet, but going by the performance of the 3B+ it will be much better than my backup laptop which is a four year old celeron with 4GB RAM and struggles to drive an external 1080p monitor and the built in 1366x768 screen at the same time. My main laptop is a higher spec and has no trouble with built in 1080p and external 1080p, about 20 time faster I guess, but if I wasn't using laptops I would certainly use a Pi 4B as a desktop system.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:35 pm

Kindda same problem here: my Intel J/N3710 did not play VC8/9 in HD, just h264 (barely).
Linux is like woman - both wants 180 % of your time...
You want speed Java 9.8x? Throw it out of some Window(s)!
My girlfriend is terribly unmature - she always sinks my boats in bathtub!

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:30 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:42 am
Sakaki on the 1.4.2 Gentoo64, which is not yet available for Pi4.
This release sees a number of significant version bumps to the bundled packages: for example, GCC from v8 to v9, Clang from v7 to v8, Chromium from v72 to v74, Firefox Quantum from v65 to v67 etc.
Not sure about Firefox Quantum in Raspbian.

WebGL is my fun Browser breaker test.
How good the new Pi4 is I won't know until 5mins after I get home today, my 1st 4B1, it's arrived :D
Will Aquarium run?
https://webglsamples.org/

The Pi4 has the new VideoCore 6 which is now OpenGLES 3.2, so it should do WebGL2.0.
Assuming it gets compiled with that switch on?
Lots of compiling will need to be done by the experts to tweak the best performance.

Right now we have a single 32bit OS Raspbian OS, it may not be optimized for Pi4/VC6.
Some things are switched off until bugs are sorted.

What happens when all those 64bit OS distributions get their hands on the Pi4?
The 4B4 is no longer a "toy" computer, but I need to wait until they are available.
For the record, after taking a little while for the Aquarium to sort of load and you then can drop it to 1 fish, it then says 1 FPS, but I think that more as it can't say fractions of an FPS.
So no it cannot out of the box at the moment (well up to todays updates)

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:44 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:30 pm
For the record, after taking a little while for the Aquarium to sort of load and you then can drop it to 1 fish, it then says 1 FPS, but I think that more as it can't say fractions of an FPS.
So no it cannot out of the box at the moment (well up to todays updates)
Due to a slight oops in packaging, launching Chromium from the menu is currently adding the "--disable-gpu" option. Launch it directly from a terminal as "chromium-browser", and Aquarium from webglsamples.org is currently playing back 500 fish at 1024x1024 at 25fps.
We also have some people looking at whether there is any low hanging fruit for improving various 3D samples from shadertoy.com

We will be removing the flag, but it also masked a bug in video playback which we're still working on (kernel oops!).
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:26 pm

6by9 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:44 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:30 pm
For the record, after taking a little while for the Aquarium to sort of load and you then can drop it to 1 fish, it then says 1 FPS, but I think that more as it can't say fractions of an FPS.
So no it cannot out of the box at the moment (well up to todays updates)
Due to a slight oops in packaging, launching Chromium from the menu is currently adding the "--disable-gpu" option. Launch it directly from a terminal as "chromium-browser", and Aquarium from webglsamples.org is currently playing back 500 fish at 1024x1024 at 25fps.
We also have some people looking at whether there is any low hanging fruit for improving various 3D samples from shadertoy.com

We will be removing the flag, but it also masked a bug in video playback which we're still working on (kernel oops!).
Is that hwy everything seems really sluggish in Chromium, include iplayer at full screen (1080, though it only streems 720 anyway)

on the other hand i just installed vivaldi, did the widevine script they have and Amazon is running full screen pretty nicely, even streaming the UHD (which then displays as 1080p) is just as good).

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:33 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:26 pm
6by9 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:44 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:30 pm
For the record, after taking a little while for the Aquarium to sort of load and you then can drop it to 1 fish, it then says 1 FPS, but I think that more as it can't say fractions of an FPS.
So no it cannot out of the box at the moment (well up to todays updates)
Due to a slight oops in packaging, launching Chromium from the menu is currently adding the "--disable-gpu" option. Launch it directly from a terminal as "chromium-browser", and Aquarium from webglsamples.org is currently playing back 500 fish at 1024x1024 at 25fps.
We also have some people looking at whether there is any low hanging fruit for improving various 3D samples from shadertoy.com

We will be removing the flag, but it also masked a bug in video playback which we're still working on (kernel oops!).
Is that hwy everything seems really sluggish in Chromium, include iplayer at full screen (1080, though it only streems 720 anyway)
Almost certainly. 6by9 is beavering away as we speak trying to figure out what nastiness is occuring in the DMA code.
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm

tried that

Code: Select all

pi@BusterPi:~ $ chromium-browser 
 --disable-quic --enable-tcp-fast-open --ppapi-flash-path=/usr/lib/chromium-browser/libpepflashplayer.so --ppapi-flash-args=enable_stagevideo_auto=0 --ppapi-flash-version=
[17656:17797:0627/172929.094279:ERROR:object_proxy.cc(619)] Failed to call method: org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities: object_path= /org/freedesktop/Notifications: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Notifications was not provided by any .service files
and it's still <1fps default and maximised browser of a 1080p

In Vivaldi however it going from 15p17FPS at defaults (maximised window)


As a side, I set GPU-mem to 256MB, does this alter anything, is it actually needed over the 64MB default (4GB version, was going to use the camera later)

going to have to move closer to my TV, I can't read the text but I can see errors, it seems to be ignoring the font size setting in chromium on the forum here, going to have to use Zoom)

I know there is work to be done, not least Buster is pre-release you've now got everyone testing and finding faults in all the little things.
To be honest it's not bad at all considering its a new platform a new distro release (oddly the line in the menu, looking via the supplied editor, only has the command * chromium-browser %U * after it

One thing (using Vivaldi as it seems to work) https://classic.minecraft.net/ can be player full-full screen with sound etc. Which makes it better than the Pi Edition.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:57 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm
tried that

Code: Select all

pi@BusterPi:~ $ chromium-browser 
 --disable-quic --enable-tcp-fast-open --ppapi-flash-path=/usr/lib/chromium-browser/libpepflashplayer.so --ppapi-flash-args=enable_stagevideo_auto=0 --ppapi-flash-version=
[17656:17797:0627/172929.094279:ERROR:object_proxy.cc(619)] Failed to call method: org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities: object_path= /org/freedesktop/Notifications: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Notifications was not provided by any .service files
and it's still <1fps default and maximised browser of a 1080p
Something strange there then, but I'm not investigating it now.
bensimmo wrote:In Vivaldi however it going from 15p17FPS at defaults (maximised window)

As a side, I set GPU-mem to 256MB, does this alter anything, is it actually needed over the 64MB default (4GB version, was going to use the camera later)
gpu_mem is becoming less relevant as all 3D textures can be allocated from anywhere in ARM memory, and all framebuffer objects come from the CMA heap. gpu_mem is pretty much only used for the H264 codec, camera, and if you access DIspmanX directly. The HEVC codec in LE is currently using it, but that will be moving to CMA.
We're moving in the direction to drop gpu_mem and have the VPU ask the kernel for allocations out of the CMA heap, but not quite there yet.
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:02 pm

Isn't that more or less turning the entire architecture on its head?

Good work...

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:53 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm
tried that

Code: Select all

pi@BusterPi:~ $ chromium-browser 
 --disable-quic --enable-tcp-fast-open --ppapi-flash-path=/usr/lib/chromium-browser/libpepflashplayer.so --ppapi-flash-args=enable_stagevideo_auto=0 --ppapi-flash-version=
[17656:17797:0627/172929.094279:ERROR:object_proxy.cc(619)] Failed to call method: org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities: object_path= /org/freedesktop/Notifications: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Notifications was not provided by any .service files
and it's still <1fps default and maximised browser of a 1080p
Weird, when I turned on gpu acceleration I went from <1fps to 10fps on 4k!
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uilfut
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:02 pm

Think the OP has long gone (his work is done - everyone reacted!).

I think there's decent odds ARM based computers might be the next normal. Apple annoyed with Intel presently - their iOS devices already running ARM - if they switched their "desktop computer"s to ARM it could be huge.

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:10 pm

+ ARM is getting huge in servers silently...
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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:44 pm

6by9 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:57 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm
tried that

Code: Select all

pi@BusterPi:~ $ chromium-browser 
 --disable-quic --enable-tcp-fast-open --ppapi-flash-path=/usr/lib/chromium-browser/libpepflashplayer.so --ppapi-flash-args=enable_stagevideo_auto=0 --ppapi-flash-version=
[17656:17797:0627/172929.094279:ERROR:object_proxy.cc(619)] Failed to call method: org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities: object_path= /org/freedesktop/Notifications: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Notifications was not provided by any .service files
and it's still <1fps default and maximised browser of a 1080p
Something strange there then, but I'm not investigating it now.
bensimmo wrote:In Vivaldi however it going from 15p17FPS at defaults (maximised window)

As a side, I set GPU-mem to 256MB, does this alter anything, is it actually needed over the 64MB default (4GB version, was going to use the camera later)
gpu_mem is becoming less relevant as all 3D textures can be allocated from anywhere in ARM memory, and all framebuffer objects come from the CMA heap. gpu_mem is pretty much only used for the H264 codec, camera, and if you access DIspmanX directly. The HEVC codec in LE is currently using it, but that will be moving to CMA.
We're moving in the direction to drop gpu_mem and have the VPU ask the kernel for allocations out of the CMA heap, but not quite there yet.
I've just been trying online Office365/Sharepoint and it is completely usable, not quite a 5 year office PC (dual core i3-4xxx something/ssd) This is a marked improvement over the pain when using it on the 3B, I assume quite a bit is the memory, but Excel, OneDrive, Teams (neither were a pleasant experience) even Gmail can happily be used.
But usable and not something I would only do if I really need to get a file off OneDrive.
:D

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:58 pm

6by9 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:57 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm

As a side, I set GPU-mem to 256MB, does this alter anything, is it actually needed over the 64MB default (4GB version, was going to use the camera later)
gpu_mem is becoming less relevant as all 3D textures can be allocated from anywhere in ARM memory, and all framebuffer objects come from the CMA heap. gpu_mem is pretty much only used for the H264 codec, camera, and if you access DIspmanX directly. The HEVC codec in LE is currently using it, but that will be moving to CMA.
We're moving in the direction to drop gpu_mem and have the VPU ask the kernel for allocations out of the CMA heap, but not quite there yet.
What implications does this have for general system GPU ram?
My current Pi3 based project requires GPU mem set to at least 224MB or it simply crashes (higher preferred, but ram is limited on a Pi3, taking too much for the GPU makes the Pi crash also)
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52:4C:52:42:41

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Re: Why is the RPi4 being advertised as a desktop computer?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:07 am

For the record, after taking a little while for the Aquarium to sort of load and you then can drop it to 1 fish, it then says 1 FPS, but I think that more as it can't say fractions of an FPS.
Yep this Buster release is NOT the fastest WebGL solution, I also got 1fps on my 4B1.
But comparing that to Gentoo64 1.4.1 which is a 64bit optimized version on my 3B+.
Lots of room for speed improvement :D

Gentoo64 has been the best for OpenGL performance to date, but I only have a few hours on the new Buster/4B1 combo.
Once the Gentoo people get more hands on with the Pi4B's and A72, I expect even better performance.
Will it be as good as an medium Android phone?
Perhaps not but it will be closer.

Hmm, was OpenGL turned off?
How do we check?
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