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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:11 am

takyon wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:48 am
Since wishlist threads are frowned upon, I'll just put it here.

RasPi 5's GPU should have hardware support for AV1 decoding.

Not unlikely to happen since Broadcom is a member of the Alliance for Open Media.
While that isn't entirely unreasonable, even if it happens, I wouldn't expect it anywhere near that soon. I expect that the VC6--maybe with a few minor tweaks--will stay in use as is for somewhere in the range of 2 to 4 generations of Pis. Anything of significance being added will probably have to wait until Broadcom decides to go to a smaller node, 20nm, at a guess, in perhaps 5 to 8 years.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:41 am

It's true: the latest Pi4 isn't quite as cheap as it is being made out. As mentioned above, the board £55, Power £8, fan £10, MicroHDMI 2 X £5, SD card £8. Definitely pushing close to £100.

The other unseen costs are time and loss of earnings. Raspbain - while very good - doesn't hold a candle to Mint (which is still pretty XP-like).

8 ordered and in use in office for 4-5 weeks now. Much more stable now. Week 1 was OK< week 2 was nightmare with Chromium and VLC bugs crashing systems.

But much better now. Quite a deep learning curve - needs fixing. OpenShot much more stable. 32-bit is a massive shame - I know your reasons but even so.

We do love the noticeably cheaper electricity bill after switching from 8 desktop PCs. Also, savings on air-con and much much quieter office now we don't have that low-level hum we did from the PCs before.

Impressed by the speed of updates and fixes. Will keep going with the Pi's - thumbs up.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:58 am

chuUK wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:41 am
It's true: the latest Pi4 isn't quite as cheap as it is being made out. As mentioned above, the board £55, Power £8, fan £10, MicroHDMI 2 X £5, SD card £8. Definitely pushing close to £100.
Don't forget the 2x4K monitors, network cable (if not using wifi), case, keyboard, mouse, assorted USB devices, desk and a building to house it in ;-)

All I had to buy was the Pi, one microHDMI cable and a microUSB to USB-C adaptor for power. I'm not even using the microHDMI cable at the moment as all my Pi run headless.
The other unseen costs are time and loss of earnings. Raspbain - while very good - doesn't hold a candle to Mint (which is still pretty XP-like).
XP? Urgh :(
Raspbian (note spelling) is pretty good. I've had very few problems with it.

Have my Pis cause loss of earnings? No. Possibly the opposite, although I'd like to do more there.

Loss of time? Yes, because I've had so much fun working on them :-)
We do love the noticeably cheaper electricity bill after switching from 8 desktop PCs. Also, savings on air-con and much much quieter office now we don't have that low-level hum we did from the PCs before.
Yes. I used to have a few PCs around my house running 24/7 and burning electricity. They have all been replaced by various Pis and saving me a fortune, plus the Pi 1B that controls my heating saved it's cost in a few months.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:35 am

chuUK wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:41 am
32-bit is a massive shame - I know your reasons but even so.
I think you, and other like-minded contributors, are going to be massively disappointed when 64-bit OSs become available (probably 3rd party ones before Raspbian). Except in certain niche applications, there simply is no massive performance gain.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:06 am

Haven't posted in a while - so - is EDID recognition fixed yet, & what about USB booting? - (neither was working in the 10/7/19 Raspbian download).

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:29 am

k-pi wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:06 am
Haven't posted in a while - so - is EDID recognition fixed yet, & what about USB booting? - (neither was working in the 10/7/19 Raspbian download).
EDID. Much improved, but still some issues with some EDID's. Worth noting that most monitors work fine and have done since launch.
USB Boot. No change.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:23 am

rpdom wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:58 am
chuUK wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:41 am
It's true: the latest Pi4 isn't quite as cheap as it is being made out. As mentioned above, the board £55, Power £8, fan £10, MicroHDMI 2 X £5, SD card £8. Definitely pushing close to £100.
Don't forget the 2x4K monitors, network cable (if not using wifi), case, keyboard, mouse, assorted USB devices, desk and a building to house it in ;-)

All I had to buy was the Pi, one microHDMI cable and a microUSB to USB-C adaptor for power. I'm not even using the microHDMI cable at the moment as all my Pi run headless.
The other unseen costs are time and loss of earnings. Raspbain - while very good - doesn't hold a candle to Mint (which is still pretty XP-like).
XP? Urgh :(
Raspbian (note spelling) is pretty good. I've had very few problems with it.

Have my Pis cause loss of earnings? No. Possibly the opposite, although I'd like to do more there.

Loss of time? Yes, because I've had so much fun working on them :-)
We do love the noticeably cheaper electricity bill after switching from 8 desktop PCs. Also, savings on air-con and much much quieter office now we don't have that low-level hum we did from the PCs before.
Yes. I used to have a few PCs around my house running 24/7 and burning electricity. They have all been replaced by various Pis and saving me a fortune, plus the Pi 1B that controls my heating saved it's cost in a few months.
Good that u had to get so little to get the Pi running. But that will not be the case for many buyers. We had no spare MicroSD's lying around. Nor 8 shim fans which you HAVE to use if you want to use this as a working desktop And we didn't have the power adaptors either.

Rasp-bane would be a better spelling. But after 6 weeks we have worked out its XP-like nature - don't tell me it's not!

Loss of earning: Again, nice for you. Maybe you are Super PiMan and nothin can touch you. Congrats. For us mere mortals, my department has lost earnings over the last 6 weeks. A degree of loss was calculated as we were moving platform, but nowhere near what we had happen.

The Pi tinkering stuff is fab. But the 4 is also aimed at me and my market in a way previous models were not able to be. When the bugs have been ironed out, the idea of the 4 as an office/low-end creative computer is a little revolution.

From my experience, day-to-day office is almost all web-apps. All their computer really needs to do is run Chromium. It's a huge market. I looked at replacement PCs for around £400 for i5. The Pi with all the bits (including second SD card or USB3 stick to image the OS just in case that package you installed borks the system) is around £100. A significant saving and much lower running costs.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:32 am

chuUK wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:23 am
Nor 8 shim fans which you HAVE to use if you want to use this as a working desktop
No you do not HAVE to.
My Pi4 which is my desktop and software development platform, runs very happily without one.
Never throttles under any load.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:31 am

No, you don't have to use fans but they are needed if you don't want burned Pi(e) :P More heat average means less lifetime so it's a good investment having any form of extra cooling. A heatsink case will do too. No case at all works but you will definitely reach throttling temps with that if you have any higher CPU load.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:45 am

pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:31 am
you will definitely reach throttling temps with that if you have any higher CPU load.
Check for throttling with:

vcgencmd get_throttled

after running a typical workload.
If it says 0x0 then you have had no thermal problems or power supply problems while running your task.

The Pi4 like the older Pi3B+ uses the copper ground plane (and metal sockets) of the PCB as a built-in heat sink. It also uses a 28nm node size down from 40nm for the Pi3

In the UK, all four CPU cores maxed out raised the temp from 54C at idle to 68C after about ten minutes.
That's with NO fan! With a full desktop running and a few web browser tabs.
Heavy use of NEON will make it hotter (see the cpuburn stress test).

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:46 am

jahboater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:45 am
pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:31 am
you will definitely reach throttling temps with that if you have any higher CPU load.
Check for throttling with:

vcgencmd get_throttled

after running a typical workload.
If it says 0x0 then you have had no thermal problems or power supply problems while running your task.

The Pi4 like the older Pi3B+ uses the copper ground plane (and metal sockets) of the PCB as a built-in heat sink. It also uses a 28nm node size down from 40nm for the Pi3

In the UK, all four CPU cores maxed out raised the temp from 54C at idle to 68C after about ten minutes.
That's with NO fan! With a full desktop running and a few web browser tabs.
Heavy use of NEON will make it hotter (see the cpuburn stress test).
Which is the complete opposite to me where Chromium takes it up to 80c and throttles without a fan blowing gentle air over it. Many people see this, you're lucky.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 am

pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:31 am
No, you don't have to use fans but they are needed if you don't want burned Pi(e) :P
Complete nonsense!

Pi computers thermally throttle to protect themselves from overheating. You might get slower performance, but you won't get burned Pi(e) :roll:
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:17 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:45 am
In the UK, all four CPU cores maxed out raised the temp from 54C at idle to 68C after about ten minutes.
That's with NO fan! With a full desktop running and a few web browser tabs.
Heavy use of NEON will make it hotter (see the cpuburn stress test).
My Pi 4 runs at around 60C idle on the Raspbian desktop. Ambient maybe 24C. A simple compile job on all four cores had me throttling in maybe 2 minutes. This was in the official case, but with the top off. I know it won’t hurt the board, but it still shows throttling will occur even when doing pretty basic stuff.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:23 pm

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 am
You might get slower performance, but you won't get burned Pi(e) :roll:
Fine, let's agree on cooked Pi(e) :P

It was a joke in case you did not get it ;)

edit:
jahboater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:45 am
Check for throttling with:

vcgencmd get_throttled

after running a typical workload.
If it says 0x0 then you have had no thermal problems or power supply problems while running your task.

The Pi4 like the older Pi3B+ uses the copper ground plane (and metal sockets) of the PCB as a built-in heat sink. It also uses a 28nm node size down from 40nm for the Pi3

In the UK, all four CPU cores maxed out raised the temp from 54C at idle to 68C after about ten minutes.
That's with NO fan! With a full desktop running and a few web browser tabs.
Heavy use of NEON will make it hotter (see the cpuburn stress test).
No problems here with heatsink case. Even with cpuburna53 it's max 68°C. Official USB-C power supply.
Last edited by pica200 on Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:28 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:46 am
Which is the complete opposite to me where Chromium takes it up to 80c and throttles without a fan blowing gentle air over it. Many people see this, you're lucky.
Many people who put them in small plastic cases see this ....

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:29 pm

Mikael wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:17 pm
jahboater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:45 am
In the UK, all four CPU cores maxed out raised the temp from 54C at idle to 68C after about ten minutes.
That's with NO fan! With a full desktop running and a few web browser tabs.
Heavy use of NEON will make it hotter (see the cpuburn stress test).
My Pi 4 runs at around 60C idle on the Raspbian desktop. Ambient maybe 24C. A simple compile job on all four cores had me throttling in maybe 2 minutes. This was in the official case, but with the top off. I know it won’t hurt the board, but it still shows throttling will occur even when doing pretty basic stuff.
Try taking it out of the official case. I find mounting it on edge, for the best convection airflow, has a small advantage too.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:36 pm

pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:31 am
No, you don't have to use fans but they are needed if you don't want burned Pi(e) :P More heat average means less lifetime so it's a good investment having any form of extra cooling. A heatsink case will do too. No case at all works but you will definitely reach throttling temps with that if you have any higher CPU load.
This is not true. The throttling ensures that temperatures that will damage to Pi do not occur. And the temperature at which they will damage enough to cause a life time problem - over 120degs.....

I use a Pi4, no case, no fan, no heatsink. Works fine for my use case. Doesn't throttle.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:48 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:36 pm
This is not true. The throttling ensures that temperatures that will damage to Pi do not occur. And the temperature at which they will damage enough to cause a life time problem - over 120degs.....

I use a Pi4, no case, no fan, no heatsink. Works fine for my use case. Doesn't throttle.
pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:23 pm
It was a joke in case you did not get it ;)
And the SoC may be fine up to 120°C but it causes stress to surrounding components aswell. And the solder balls under it which is the reason many cheap laptops with bad cooling fail early ;)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:20 pm

pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:48 pm
And the SoC may be fine up to 120°C but it causes stress to surrounding components aswell. And the solder balls under it which is the reason many cheap laptops with bad cooling fail early ;)
You will find the Raspberry Pi is rather better engineered than that.

In fact the SoC is deliberately thermally coupled to the copper board back plane, giving the Pi as a whole considerable thermal inertia.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:51 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:28 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:46 am
Which is the complete opposite to me where Chromium takes it up to 80c and throttles without a fan blowing gentle air over it. Many people see this, you're lucky.
Many people who put them in small plastic cases see this ....
of which i have none.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:12 pm

I have not tried without the case but with the crap thermal pad supplied with the case it was 49-51°C idle and 78-80 with cpuburna53. After replacing it's now 46-47 idle and max 68 under load. I would probably see the same 51-55°C without anything and throttling under heavier load.
I know the ground planes of the whole board will sink heat away but that's not enough to prevent throttling. Especially if i'm gonna fire up gcc or similar ;)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:18 pm

pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:12 pm
Especially if i'm gonna fire up gcc or similar ;)
Don't worry about GCC!
A 13,000 line compilation, with optimization, raises the temp of my Pi4 by 2C.

Compiling GCC itself which is huge, using make -j5 (all four cores flat out for over 3 hours) did not reach throttling or even close. That's roughly 54 million lines of code.

No fan needed of course, just give it some free air ventilation.
Last edited by jahboater on Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:21 pm

pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:12 pm
I know the ground planes of the whole board will sink heat away but that's not enough to prevent throttling.
Its enough for shortish jobs (that's what thermal inertia means). Perhaps a couple of minutes.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:20 pm

pica200 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:12 pm
I have not tried without the case but with the crap thermal pad supplied with the case it was 49-51°C idle and 78-80 with cpuburna53. After replacing it's now 46-47 idle and max 68 under load. I would probably see the same 51-55°C without anything and throttling under heavier load.
I know the ground planes of the whole board will sink heat away but that's not enough to prevent throttling. Especially if i'm gonna fire up gcc or similar ;)
My Pi 4 4GB used to throttle a lot. I knew because the thermometer icon would pop up a lot. After I installed it in a Flirc case it would idle about 38C but would never go above 60C no matter how hard I pushed it.

I added a couple useful items to the Panel.
Temperature Monitor (show temperature in degrees C)
CPU Usage Monitor (show usage as percentage)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:06 am

When will USB Boot and PXE coming ??
Gruß / Regards
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