crocket
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Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:13 am

I don't want to buy a full-fledged UPS that costs more than 100 USD.

It seems most USB power banks are unsuitable as UPS. Plus, they don't report power levels or whether mains power is available.

Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+? I want one that doesn't shut down raspberry pi as soon as power goes out.
Last edited by crocket on Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:26 am

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:13 am
I don't want to buy a full-fledged UPS that costs more than 100 USD.

It seems most USB power banks are unsuitable as UPS. Plus, they don't report power levels or whether mains power is available.

Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+? I want one that doesn't shut down raspberry pi as soon as power goes out.

https://www.modmypi.com/raspberry-pi/po ... 1/ups-pico

https://www.modmypi.com/raspberry-pi/po ... ontrol-hat
Retired disgracefully.....
This at present is my daily "computer" https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/Chromebit-CS10/

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B.Goode
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:32 am

Not a recommendation, but just pointing out a product. And yes, I can see it is marked Out of Stock.

https://uk.pi-supply.com/products/pijuice-standard


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rpiMike
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:26 am

Try searching for a power bank with ‘pass through’ charging. Supposedly they work like a UPS.

crocket
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:38 am

rpiMike wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:26 am
Try searching for a power bank with ‘pass through’ charging. Supposedly they work like a UPS.
Do those pass-through power banks charge as fast as Raspberry Pi draws power from it?

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B.Goode
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:15 am

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:20 am
Are there cheaper ones?


With reference to your parallel thread which puts some parameters on your requirement.

You are unlikely to find something both cheap and reliable that gives you autonomous operation for some hours.

My impression is that the 'cheap and cheerful' options are intended to give you a few minutes of run time so that you can perform a clean shutdown under controlled circumstances.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:20 am

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:20 am
Are there cheaper ones?
Do you have a soldering iron and know how to use it?
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

crocket
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:04 am

B.Goode wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:15 am
With reference to your parallel thread which puts some parameters on your requirement.

You are unlikely to find something both cheap and reliable that gives you autonomous operation for some hours.

My impression is that the 'cheap and cheerful' options are intended to give you a few minutes of run time so that you can perform a clean shutdown under controlled circumstances.
I guess I don't want to keep replacing batteries once every 2~4 years.
I want something like https://juice4halt.com/ which is less than half as expensive as juice4halt.
Imperf3kt wrote: Do you have a soldering iron and know how to use it?
I learned how to use a soldering iron by watching videos. I really wanted to make a custom keyboard with a soldering iron. But, I haven't bought and used one because I didn't like inhaling solder fume which is harmful. Plus, the ventilation system was bulky and added more cost to the soldering setup.

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B.Goode
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:07 am

From the link you cited...
Performance
designed for Raspberry Pi Models B+, 2, 3
60 seconds backup time including a safe shutdown
20 seconds protection against short-term power failure (no shutdown)
Note those times are in seconds, not minutes!

crocket
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:15 am

B.Goode wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:07 am
Note those times are in seconds, not minutes!
I know. That might be enough time to shut down. However, I realize that I just want to protect sd card from file corruption caused by rare power outages that happen once per several years.

If SD card can withstand those rare power outages, I won't need a batteryless UPS. I still might want some surge protection from a power strip.

By the way, #250 Universal Power Source (UPS) for only 2$ looks interesting.

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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:55 am

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:15 am
If SD card can withstand those rare power outages, I won't need a batteryless UPS.
The SD card is not the problem, it is the unexpected failure of the processor caused by lack of energy.
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crocket
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:09 pm

Ernst wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:55 am
The SD card is not the problem, it is the unexpected failure of the processor caused by lack of energy.
What? Can the CPU on raspberry pi 3B+ die because of power loss? I thought I bought a good piece of equipment.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:14 pm

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:09 pm
Ernst wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:55 am
The SD card is not the problem, it is the unexpected failure of the processor caused by lack of energy.
What? Can the CPU on raspberry pi 3B+ die because of power loss? I thought I bought a good piece of *.



Without electricity any electrical equipment will not function.
Retired disgracefully.....
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Ernst
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:35 pm

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:09 pm
Ernst wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:55 am
The SD card is not the problem, it is the unexpected failure of the processor caused by lack of energy.
What? Can the CPU on raspberry pi 3B+ die because of power loss? I thought I bought a good piece of *.
Please read this: https://www.dummies.com/computers/pcs/u ... -supplies/
The road to insanity is paved with static ip addresses

jbudd
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:48 pm

In your other thread you say that you intend to run the Pi continuously for several years.

Regardless of power outages you probably need to consider the SD card failing due to too many write operations.
One way to prevent this is to set it up with read-only file systems, and if your SD card is read-only, you have nothing to fear from power outages.

crocket
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:14 pm
Without electricity any electrical equipment will not function.
I think Ernst said a power outage can permanently kill rasberry pi. If it dies permanently, it cannot be powered up again, or it powers up but cannot compute anything properly.
jbudd wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:48 pm
Regardless of power outages you probably need to consider the SD card failing due to too many write operations.
One way to prevent this is to set it up with read-only file systems, and if your SD card is read-only, you have nothing to fear from power outages.
I'm considering following instructions on https://domoticproject.com/extending-li ... pi-sd-card. I might connect a USB hard disk to RPi.

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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:33 pm

I'm considering following instructions on https://domoticproject.com/extending-li ... pi-sd-card. I might connect a USB hard disk to RPi.
I would have thought that a spinning hard disk is more likely than an SD to suffer damage or corruption from a power cut.
What is the Pi used for? Perhaps read-only filesystems combined with data storage in the cloud would work for you?

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mahjongg
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:33 pm

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:14 pm
Without electricity any electrical equipment will not function.
I think Ernst said a power outage can permanently kill rasberry pi. If it dies permanently, it cannot be powered up again, or it powers up but cannot compute anything properly.
You thought wrong, he probably meant that the CPU would crash, and damage the filing system, not that the PI's hardware will be permanently damaged by a power fail.

Also, please don't swear, I get complaints I have to handle by applying censorship, which I hate to do....

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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:46 pm

crocket wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:14 pm
Without electricity any electrical equipment will not function.
I think Ernst said a power outage can permanently kill rasberry pi. If it dies permanently, it cannot be powered up again, or it powers up but cannot compute anything properly. I'd have to buy a new one.
I said:
The SD card is not the problem, it is the unexpected failure of the processor caused by lack of energy.
What this means is that the processor will fail (not die) when power is removed unexpectedly which can have a bigger influence on the contents of the file system on the SD card.

You stated:
If SD card can withstand those rare power outages, I won't need a batteryless UPS.
The SD can withstand power outages, what do you think happens with SD cards used in cameras when the camera is powered off ? An unexpected loss of power can cause problems in two subsystems, the one subsystem being the SD card processing IO operations and the other subsystem the operating system on the host busy with the other side of the IO operations. The risk that the SD card fails when IO operations are interrupted is quite low, the risk that the file system on the SD gets corrupted is much higher because parts of the data could be written already while other parts are still in RAM when power fails. If this happens to be updates to the administrative areas (like inode table) then anything can go wrong.
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crocket
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:49 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:33 pm
Also, please don't swear, I get complaints I have to handle by applying censorship, which I hate to do....
Man, it must be tough to live in a world where you got to censor *%^^
Ernst wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:46 pm
The risk that the SD card fails when IO operations are interrupted is quite low, the risk that the file system on the SD gets corrupted is much higher because parts of the data could be written already while other parts are still in RAM when power fails. If this happens to be updates to the administrative areas (like inode table) then anything can go wrong.
I got to make backups, then. Is a btrfs snapshot good enough?
jbudd wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:33 pm
What is the Pi used for? Perhaps read-only filesystems combined with data storage in the cloud would work for you?
It's going to be a gentoo system used for
  • Morning alarm
  • task management with emacs org-mode. I'll ssh into raspberry pi from android and iOS. org-mode files will be synchronized between RPi and my desktop.
  • A git repository for https://www.passwordstore.org/ which will be synchronized between RPi and my desktop. Android and iOS will access it through ssh.
  • wake-on-lan server for my desktop
Although it's gentoo, I will install binary packages built by my gentoo desktop. And, I don't like cloud storage.

A hard disk is a lot more robust against writes. Power outages are rare enough. SD card lifespan is a bigger threat than power outages.
Last edited by crocket on Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:44 pm, edited 12 times in total.

jbudd
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:03 pm

Man, it must be tough to live in a world where you got to censor ....
Wow, you are a charmer arent you?

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rpdom
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:21 pm

jbudd wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:33 pm
I'm considering following instructions on https://domoticproject.com/extending-li ... pi-sd-card. I might connect a USB hard disk to RPi.
I would have thought that a spinning hard disk is more likely than an SD to suffer damage or corruption from a power cut.
Actually no. The spinning rust devices have a number of measures to ensure data is correctly written out in case of power failure.

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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:42 pm

There are some parameters that aren't spelled out. Such as, how long a power outage do you expect to ride out? What do you consider to be "cheap"?

For protecting a transportable system (that is, one that I can pack up, take with me, and set up when I arrive at my destination) I use: https://www.frys.com/product/8039934?si ... IN_RSLT_PG The cost is a bit more than a Pi, itself, it's not particularly heavy, and it will ride out *most* power outages. Plus--like any UPS--it includes line conditioning and surge protection. At 3.5 lbs., it is reasonably portable.

crocket
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Re: Is there a cheap and reliable UPS for raspberry pi 3b+?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:49 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:42 pm
There are some parameters that aren't spelled out. Such as, how long a power outage do you expect to ride out? What do you consider to be "cheap"?

For protecting a transportable system (that is, one that I can pack up, take with me, and set up when I arrive at my destination) I use: https://www.frys.com/product/8039934?si ... IN_RSLT_PG The cost is a bit more than a Pi, itself, it's not particularly heavy, and it will ride out *most* power outages. Plus--like any UPS--it includes line conditioning and surge protection. At 3.5 lbs., it is reasonably portable.
Cheap means it's not more expensive than Pi itself. I wanted up to 10 minutes of operation after power loss so that I could shut it down properly.

However, I decided that it is just cheaper to send a backup of SD card as a btrfs/ZFS snapshot to my desktop and avoid most writes through tmpfs.

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