RAM
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:36 pm

First and foremost, kudos for the Raspberry Pi project.  I really appreciate what the Raspberry Pi team has set out to achieve, and I believe countless others also appreciate it as well.  Great stuff. Please do keep it up.

Regarding the "We've started manufacture!" post, it started an interesting discussion regarding the feasibility of manufacturing electronic products in the UK/EU/West, or rather the lack thereof.  Considering what has been said in that post with regards to the issues involved in manufacturing the boards in the UK, (manufacturing schedule, production capacity, price deltas, taxes, etc...) I was wondering the following: would it be possible for the Raspberry Pi foundation to put together a separate "made in the UK/EU/West" batch to be sold at slightly higher price to offset these issues? If given the choice, I would gladly pay an extra five dollars for a product made in the EU, and I believe others would do it as well.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Would this be feasible for the Raspberry Pi Foundation to pull off?

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:42 pm

This topic has already been done to death and closed down elsewhere.

Sylvain
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:54 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:53 pm

That's nearly exactly what I have proposed here : http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....-6/#p29467

And as Grumpyoldgit said the topic has been closed (like some others) without real answers.

Once the Team has decided something, you should not discuss, that's how it works here !

Sylvain.

lworbey
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:01 pm

Sylvain said:


And as Grumpyoldgit said the topic has been closed (like some others) without real answers.

Once the Team has decided something, you should not discuss, that's how it works here !


No that is not how it works here and there have been plenty of answers to this, just because you don't agree is no reason to be insulting.

The whole purpose of the RasPi is to make a device to help kids to learn to program at the cheapest price possible.

FAQs:


Our main function is a charitable one – we’re trying to build the cheapest possible computer that provides a certain basic level of functionality



Whether people are willing to pay more for a UK version or not has nothing to do with the original purpose of the device.

I know it may be frustrating for some people but this is not a commercial venture, it is a charity working their hardest and I doubt they have the time or money to start bringing out different versions to suit various different wishes.

Maybe there will be UK manufacture in the future, maybe not, we will just have to wait and see.

RAM
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:06 pm

Nevertheless, it would be interesting to have a discussion over this. Even if the official answer given by the foundation would be "no, it would be silly" or "no, it would require too much work", it would provide some insight into this issue.

User avatar
psergiu
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:36 am
Location: TX, U.S.A. (was: RO, E.U.)
Contact: Website

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:06 pm

The beta batch was made in UK - and you have seen the prices ...

There are two posibilities:

1) If you live in the UK, go pester your MP to make-it feasible that future batches of RPi are built in UK by the foundation. As those laws are EU-wide, anyone on the old continent is welcome to pester their own elected politicians.

2) Once the 1st batch goes live, the foundation will make all the schematics freely available - there's nobody stopping you to make your own RaspberrEU Pi 100% EU made and sold it to the dozen people willing to pay more.

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:08 pm

The issue is, as far as I can see it, that the foundation is a very small organisation, with minimal funding and staffed mainly by volunteers who have given their time to set up and run the project. I am sure it has been a steep learning curve and it is clear that some difficult decisions have been made to get the Pi off the ground. A number of posters have pushed and pushed their views until they have been done to death, then moved to another thread and made the same points again. The foundation is not a democracy. They have a product to get out. It would perhaps be helpful if people would let them get on with it and perhaps concentrate the mass of practical issues that still do need input.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23915
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:09 pm

How much more would people pay?

It would cost AT LEAST another £5 on to to manufacture in the UK. That is a large percentage increase (30%) on the price of the board.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:10 pm

RAM said:


Nevertheless, it would be interesting to have a discussion over this. Even if the official answer given by the foundation would be "no, it would be silly" or "no, it would require too much work", it would provide some insight into this issue.


This issue has been discussed at excruciating length elsewhere on the board.

RAM
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:10 pm

lworbey said:

Whether people are willing to pay more for a UK version or not has nothing to do with the original purpose of the device.
I know it may be frustrating for some people but this is not a commercial venture, it is a charity working their hardest and I doubt they have the time or money to start bringing out different versions to suit various different wishes.

Maybe there will be UK manufacture in the future, maybe not, we will just have to wait and see.



Not quite. The following has been said in the "We've started manufacturing!" post:


As you will know if you’ve been reading the forums and the articles on this website, the Raspberry Pi Foundation had intended to get all its manufacture done in the UK; after all, we’re a UK charity, we want to help bootstrap the UK electronics industry, and doing our manufacturing in the UK seemed another way to help reach our goals.


So, it appears that yes, it does have something to do with Raspberry Pi's main purpose.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23915
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:12 pm

Something to do with, as in, a nice to have, but not the primary purpose, which always comes first. Hence the work primary.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

User avatar
meltwater
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:38 am

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:16 pm

Keep things civil and I doubt the discussion will get killed off, I think that was the bigger problem.

It's a slippery slope, a few £ here and there, the R-Pi goes closer and closer to other expensive options.  Personally, I don't mind so much since it's the platform I'm interested in, but the cost will be more important to me after the 1st one.  I imagine making things more complex than it needs to be is best avoided anyway.

Am I correct in thinking, we will be adding VAT (20%) to the price in the shop when it comes too? Or am I wrong about that.
______________
http://www.themagpi.com/
A Magazine for Raspberry Pi Users
Read Online or Download for Free.

My new book: goo.gl/dmVtsc

Meltwater's Pi Hardware - pihardware.com

Like the MagPi? @TheMagP1 @TheMagPiTeam

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23915
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:20 pm

All prices are EX Local Taxes.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

RAM
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:28 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


This issue has been discussed at excruciating length elsewhere on the board.


If this is the case then it would be a good idea to add it to the FAQ. I've read it prior to posting, as suggested in Raspberry Pi 101, and production is only mentioned regarding when it would start.

A couple of forum searches also failed to return any relevant discussion on this issue.  Granted, my searching skills may be to blame in this one.

Nevertheless, as you repeatedly stated that this has been already discussed, could you please provide any link to any discussion which you believe does a good job covering this topic?

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23915
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:37 pm

To be honest, I think all you need to read is the comments above, but basically it come down to..

1. We wanted to produce in the UK

2. Some unfortunate circumstances means plans needed to be changed.

3. Despite trying very hard to find alternatives in the UK, we have to manufacture this first batch and possibly others, in the Far East.

4. This was necessary to meet the vital price targets that have been advertised for the last 9 months.

5. It will cost at LEAST £5 ($7-8) PER BOARD more to manufacture in the UK

6. We cannot be sure of the demand - what happens if we make 1000 units, and don't sell any at the higher price? That's the CHARITY about $30000 out of pocket (I don't know the exact BoM, so that is approximate)
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:41 pm

This topic discussed the matter at length, got quite heated, and was closed down.

http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....as-started

RAM
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:17 pm

JamesH said:


To be honest, I think all you need to read is the comments above, but basically it come down to..

1. We wanted to produce in the UK

2. Some unfortunate circumstances means plans needed to be changed.

3. Despite trying very hard to find alternatives in the UK, we have to manufacture this first batch and possibly others, in the Far East.

4. This was necessary to meet the vital price targets that have been advertised for the last 9 months.

5. It will cost at LEAST £5 ($7-8) PER BOARD more to manufacture in the UK

6. We cannot be sure of the demand - what happens if we make 1000 units, and don't sell any at the higher price? That's the CHARITY about $30000 out of pocket (I don't know the exact BoM, so that is approximate)



Point #[1-5] were already covered well in the "We've started manufacture!" blog post. They aren't being questioned, and when I started this post I didn't intended to discuss them.

Point #6, on the other hand, would be interesting to discuss for a number of reasons. As you've pointed out, there is a considerable number of unknowns regarding this issue, and certainly it would be possible to shed some light on them through an open discussion. It would be interesting to get an official statement from the Foundation regarding this.

WRT the uncertain demand for a "made in UK/EU" batch, it would be possible to quantify it through a simple scheme.  The Raspberry Pi Foundation could set up a pre-order system for this "made in UK/EU" batch, where people could order these boards by agreeing to pay a higher price. From these pre-orders, the Foundation could easily quantify the real world demand, which would help decide on what to do.  If these pre-orders weren't enough to justify this batch then each order could be easily converted into a standard "made in Far East" order, sold at the standard price.

With this, everyone would win. The Foundation would win with any outcome. In fact. it would possibly end up being the one that could win the most.  After all, it would be able to present a real world case study that provided an apples to apples comparison of what it takes to manufacture electronics products in the West Vs the Far East, and therefore be able to shine a light on what effectively doesn't work back here, and therefore what is causing the collapse of this industry in the West.

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:20 pm

Move on. There's nothing to see here.

Close the post.

User avatar
Jessie
Posts: 1754
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:40 pm
Location: C/S CO USA

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:43 pm

The gerbers will be released at some point.  So you all can go out and secure a loan against your own properties and get them made wherever you want.

These topics don't get closed just because it is a forbidden topic.  They get closed because they always become uncivalized.  I also want to point out that people need to be sensitive to the feelings of the foundation members who have spent years of their time, their personal money, and unmeasurable passion to make this happen.  Whereas many here have shown up just to spout out their opinion with no real first hand knowlege on the matter.

Right now the foundation is focused on one thing and that is getting the boards out for the original prices of $25/$35.  Then after that getting the educational materials ready for the educational release.  They aren't focused on any hypothetical future releases.  Could there be some small batch UK produced boards at some point?  Absolutly, but right now people have other things on the plate.

Complaining and arguing like this is why many projects never make it off the ground.  Everyone wants to put their 2 cents in but no one wants to spend their own money and time to make it happen.  Let me put it this way, the project dosn't need another member of the management team.

djhworld
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:49 pm


I honestly don't understand why there is so much aversion to the R-PI foundation opting to manufacture the boards in the far east.

Nearly every single gadget you buy is manufactured in the Asian territories, heck, even ARM our most revered chip company just licenses out its chip designs and they get made elsewhere (usually in the far east)

I watched a documentary about ARM the other week, the presenter spoke to one of the senior guys (or CEO I can't remember) from ARM who said "why do we need to spend £5m buiilding a factory plus running expenses when we can just focus on what we do best - R&D"

The UK and the West have become an ideas economy, the halycon days of UK manufacture have long gone.

I see no reason why the R-PI foundation needs to buck this trend, they were the ones that designed the board and now they have their final design, they're offloading their specification to companies that can build it at a cost that's agreeable to them.


jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23915
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:53 pm

RAM said:





Point #6, on the other hand, would be interesting to discuss for a number of reasons. As you've pointed out, there is a considerable number of unknowns regarding this issue, and certainly it would be possible to shed some light on them through an open discussion. It would be interesting to get an official statement from the Foundation regarding this.

WRT the uncertain demand for a "made in UK/EU" batch, it would be possible to quantify it through a simple scheme.  The Raspberry Pi Foundation could set up a pre-order system for this "made in UK/EU" batch, where people could order these boards by agreeing to pay a higher price. From these pre-orders, the Foundation could easily quantify the real world demand, which would help decide on what to do.  If these pre-orders weren't enough to justify this batch then each order could be easily converted into a standard "made in Far East" order, sold at the standard price.

With this, everyone would win. The Foundation would win with any outcome. In fact. it would possibly end up being the one that could win the most.  After all, it would be able to present a real world case study that provided an apples to apples comparison of what it takes to manufacture electronics products in the West Vs the Far East, and therefore be able to shine a light on what effectively doesn't work back here, and therefore what is causing the collapse of this industry in the West.


The Foundation wouldn't win. All they get is added hassle of sourcing UK manufacture, setting up a pre-order system, and generally having to deal with two streams of manufacture. My personal opinion is that for a employee-less charity, that just too much of a PITA. As an aside, it's not the job of the foundation to try and shine a light on why Western manufacture isn't working.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

Sylvain
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:54 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:01 pm

Jessie said:


Let me put it this way, the project doesn't need another member of the management team.


I'm OK with this way of seeing things but then, why did you open a forum and open the comments on your blog ?

You could have simply made a website with only the infos you wanted on it and that's all. You would have to deal with some email, some criticises on other web sites but it would have been easily ignorable … Many compagnies perfectly work doing this way.

Current part of the forum is subtitled : "Share your thoughts about the Raspberry Pi device and the foundation's work", how can you blame people for doing that ???

Don't tell me discutions are going "uncivalized", they aren't (or there are subtleties I really don't understand as non native english speaker …). In fact, I find this forum extremly gentle compared to what I'm used …

Sylvain.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23915
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:07 pm

Whilst they don't need another member of the team, they are always happy to take on board good suggestions. There are sometimes gems amongst the rough.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

User avatar
Jongoleur
Posts: 1179
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: O'erlooking the sea, and all those effin windfarms...

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:11 pm

When the first beta boards were going into production, I remember Liz posted something about costs and mentioned that to produce a run of 100 boards was horrendously expensive.  I've a feeling that even producing a run of 10000 boards is disgustingly expensive and that (not knowing any figures) it would make even a Model A board so expensive that no-one would buy.

The problem is that certain posters in this forum appears to think that all the aims of the Foundation have equal weight. The main aims were for a cheap Pc to encourage children to take up programming, particularly children in the UK.  UK manufacture was certainly an aim, just not a major one.  Price and availability trumped it. Price matters, far more than the origin of the goods.  If you want to see, look in any Poundland.
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

User avatar
scep
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:53 am

Re: Offer a "made in UK/EU/West" batch?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:20 pm

Sylvain said:


Current part of the forum is subtitled : "Share your thoughts about the Raspberry Pi device and the foundation"s work", how can you blame people for doing that ???


Unfortunately a few* interpret this as "Feel free to unconditionally slag off the product, criticise the Foundation and tell everyone how much better they could have done it." And when they don't quickly get kicked  – as they would in most other forums -  they just keep pushing it.

Informed criticism and considered suggestions are always welcome, hence the glasnost. This doesn't mean that it's OK to barge into someone's house, crap on their sofa and call their wife and kids ugly

[*and it is a few - you are right, this forum is very "gentle" and we would like to keep it that way]

Return to “General discussion”