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DavidS
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Complements to RPiT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm

I am very impressed at the Raspberry Pi 3B+. I recieved my first RPi 3B+ a couple of hours ago, and it is in many ways a plesent surprise.

As we all know the RPi 3B had some noticable thermal issues, as well as other difficulties, though the 3B+ seems to be very well past that.

I have been runing all 4 CPU's and videoCoreIV VPU hard for more than an hour non stop in a warm room, and the tempurature has only reached 54.8C at its highest thus far. As this is a BCM2837, the same IC that gave us thermal issues with the 3B I am very impressed with the 3B+, especially as it has also maintained 1400MHz for the entire test thus far.

so hats off to RPiT for an extraordinary job with this design, especially with the thermal distrabution and dissapation.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
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drgeoff
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:38 pm

"Compliments" as in "My compliments to the chef".

jahboater
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:49 pm

DavidS wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm
I have been runing all 4 CPU's and videoCoreIV VPU hard for more than an hour non stop in a warm room, and the tempurature has only reached 54.8C at its highest thus far. As this is a BCM2837, the same IC that gave us thermal issues with the 3B I am very impressed with the 3B+, especially as it has also maintained 1400MHz for the entire test thus far.
Its more than just the good thermal management, they also increased the electrical power available to the CPU cores.

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DavidS
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:15 am

jahboater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:49 pm
DavidS wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm
I have been runing all 4 CPU's and videoCoreIV VPU hard for more than an hour non stop in a warm room, and the tempurature has only reached 54.8C at its highest thus far. As this is a BCM2837, the same IC that gave us thermal issues with the 3B I am very impressed with the 3B+, especially as it has also maintained 1400MHz for the entire test thus far.
Its more than just the good thermal management, they also increased the electrical power available to the CPU cores.
i do remember a RPi blog post about the better power management IC that they brought out with the 3B+, I had forgotten about that until you brought it up. Thank you for that.

Yes i add that to my thanks on the design of the RPi 3B+. I never could have imagined a RISC OS desktop machine this powerfull, now I have one (ARMv8 @ 1400MHz, soon to be able to use all four cores [as SMP is coming to RISC OS], and it is already possible to use the other cores in RISC OS). And it makes a usable Linux box for when the Linux nightmare is needed, better than some options though.

Some time back a member of this forum prompted me to get a cheap x86 PC, having told me that even a low end modern x86 PC is many fold faster than the RPi, so I did. Well now having compared as near to identical benchmarks as possible on both (quad core ARMv8 and quad core Intel Pentium 4 Core I5) the RPi wins in processing power (though not memory speed and size). The Core I5 box is clocked at 1.4GHz, so the clocks match exactly making for a perfect comparison (though the x86 box will throttle a lot more than the RPi 3B+).

Then there is the fact that every x86 PC I have owned in my life has had some kind of HW failure or another within the first 4 years, requiring something to be replaced on the motherboard. Though I am still using some Raspberry Pi model 1B's without issue, and have yet to have an actuall hardware failure on a Raspberry Pi of any model (not even the super hot running RPi 3B).

So the Raspberry Pi 3B+ has successfully proven that I have no need of any kind of computer other than a low cost well designed well supported ARM based SBC, which for this decade is the Raspberry Pi series. I hope that it is the Raspberry Pi series for another decade or two (let the RPi have a longer lifespan of production than Acorn Computers did).
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:53 am

DavidS wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:15 am
jahboater wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:49 pm
DavidS wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm
I have been runing all 4 CPU's and videoCoreIV VPU hard for more than an hour non stop in a warm room, and the tempurature has only reached 54.8C at its highest thus far. As this is a BCM2837, the same IC that gave us thermal issues with the 3B I am very impressed with the 3B+, especially as it has also maintained 1400MHz for the entire test thus far.
Its more than just the good thermal management, they also increased the electrical power available to the CPU cores.
i do remember a RPi blog post about the better power management IC that they brought out with the 3B+, I had forgotten about that until you brought it up. Thank you for that.

Yes i add that to my thanks on the design of the RPi 3B+. I never could have imagined a RISC OS desktop machine this powerfull, now I have one (ARMv8 @ 1400MHz, soon to be able to use all four cores [as SMP is coming to RISC OS], and it is already possible to use the other cores in RISC OS). And it makes a usable Linux box for when the Linux nightmare is needed, better than some options though.

Some time back a member of this forum prompted me to get a cheap x86 PC, having told me that even a low end modern x86 PC is many fold faster than the RPi, so I did. Well now having compared as near to identical benchmarks as possible on both (quad core ARMv8 and quad core Intel Pentium 4 Core I5) the RPi wins in processing power (though not memory speed and size). The Core I5 box is clocked at 1.4GHz, so the clocks match exactly making for a perfect comparison (though the x86 box will throttle a lot more than the RPi 3B+).

Then there is the fact that every x86 PC I have owned in my life has had some kind of HW failure or another within the first 4 years, requiring something to be replaced on the motherboard. Though I am still using some Raspberry Pi model 1B's without issue, and have yet to have an actuall hardware failure on a Raspberry Pi of any model (not even the super hot running RPi 3B).

So the Raspberry Pi 3B+ has successfully proven that I have no need of any kind of computer other than a low cost well designed well supported ARM based SBC, which for this decade is the Raspberry Pi series. I hope that it is the Raspberry Pi series for another decade or two (let the RPi have a longer lifespan of production than Acorn Computers did).

Asus ChromeBit I purchased as used but original packaging / accessories for £60.00, ChromeOS supported with regular updates until November 2020.

https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/ ... fications/

ARM32 CPU and blows away the RPi 3B+ when used for YouTube / Goffice / multiple open Chrome Browser Tabs.

The RPi 3B+ is good, extremely good, fantiscally exceptional, but as a PC replacement it is not it's forte......
adieu

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DavidS
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:48 am

Not a PC Replacement, it is a PC (need something to replace for it to be a replacement).

It is the best RISC OS desktop computer I have yet had.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
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jahboater
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:21 am

DavidS wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:15 am
i do remember a RPi blog post about the better power management IC that they brought out with the 3B+, I had forgotten about that until you brought it up.
I thought they had done something inside the SoC too. Increased the thickness of the paths to the CPU cores.
Not sure.

Have you looked at A1 or A2 class micro SD cards ?
https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overv ... index.html
They made my 3B+ "feel" faster.
Sandisk cards.

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rpdom
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:34 am

jahboater wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:21 am
DavidS wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:15 am
i do remember a RPi blog post about the better power management IC that they brought out with the 3B+, I had forgotten about that until you brought it up.
I thought they had done something inside the SoC too. Increased the thickness of the paths to the CPU cores.
Not sure.
Not sure either, other than the physical changes (flip the chip over internally so the silicon is mounted on the metal top instead of the bottom) and some changes to the boot ROM code.

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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:48 am

rpdom wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:34 am
jahboater wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:21 am
DavidS wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:15 am
i do remember a RPi blog post about the better power management IC that they brought out with the 3B+, I had forgotten about that until you brought it up.
I thought they had done something inside the SoC too. Increased the thickness of the paths to the CPU cores.
Not sure.
Not sure either, other than the physical changes (flip the chip over internally so the silicon is mounted on the metal top instead of the bottom) and some changes to the boot ROM code.

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2018/ ... comparison

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/pi-power-supply-chip/
adieu

My other Computer is an Asus CS10 ChromeBit running Chrome Operating System.
HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer supported by HPLIP software in Raspbian Stretch.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:52 am

DavidS wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:48 am
Not a PC Replacement, it is a PC (need something to replace for it to be a replacement).

It is the best RISC OS desktop computer I have yet had.

http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/price ... ml#RiscPCs
adieu

My other Computer is an Asus CS10 ChromeBit running Chrome Operating System.
HP Envy 4500 Wireless Printer supported by HPLIP software in Raspbian Stretch.

jahboater
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:03 am

Thanks fruitoftheloom,

It is not the same BCM2837 as the Pi3 used.
The new product is built around BCM2837B0, an updated version of the 64-bit Broadcom application processor used in Raspberry Pi 3B, which incorporates power integrity optimizations, and a heat spreader (that’s the shiny metal bit you can see in the photos). Together these allow us to reach higher clock frequencies (or to run at lower voltages to reduce power consumption), and to more accurately monitor and control the temperature of the chip.
The improved power integrity of the BCM2837B0 package, and the improved regulation accuracy of our new MaxLinear MxL7704 power management IC, have allowed us to tune our clocking and voltage rules for both better peak performance and longer-duration sustained performance.
I am sure I remember that as thicker pathways to the four CPU cores.

I guess the buying power of the RPF (5 million+ per year) helped get this change.

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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:01 pm

DavidS wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm
so hats off to RPiT for an extraordinary job with this design, especially with the thermal distrabution and dissapation.
It is an impressive bit of kit overall.

The only notable issue seems to be that the PMIC used in the 3B+ results in it not being as robust as previous Pi when it comes to the Pi permanently failing if power rails are shorted. There have also been a small number of people who have had the PMIC fail for no obvious or explained reason.

I believe those issue are under investigation but am not aware of what progress may have been made in that respect.

In some cases it is reported that attaching HAT's or external circuits which use the 3B+'s 3V3 rail prevents booting.

I don't know if that's also being investigated or if there is any explanation for that behaviour.

It appears those issues may also affect the 3A+ as well as a 3B+ which wouldn't be surprising if they use the same power management scheme.

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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:36 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:01 pm
DavidS wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:36 pm
so hats off to RPiT for an extraordinary job with this design, especially with the thermal distrabution and dissapation.
It is an impressive bit of kit overall.

The only notable issue seems to be that the PMIC used in the 3B+ results in it not being as robust as previous Pi when it comes to the Pi permanently failing if power rails are shorted. There have also been a small number of people who have had the PMIC fail for no obvious or explained reason.

I believe those issue are under investigation but am not aware of what progress may have been made in that respect.

In some cases it is reported that attaching HAT's or external circuits which use the 3B+'s 3V3 rail prevents booting.

I don't know if that's also being investigated or if there is any explanation for that behaviour.

It appears those issues may also affect the 3A+ as well as a 3B+ which wouldn't be surprising if they use the same power management scheme.
We are still (with the held of the PMIC supplier) looking in to these issues.
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:41 pm

So when are you going to get RISC OS up to the 64bit era.


It is still 32bit with a lot of work to get to v8 64bit I assume, I'm no help but from what I've read you could help push it forward.
It would be a shame for RISC OS to get left behind at 32 bit with only older CPU's in the coming years.
I hope your community can push it forward now it's opened up.
Even if that somewhat goes against what you try to do with software.

jahboater
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:39 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:41 pm
So when are you going to get RISC OS up to the 64bit era.


It is still 32bit with a lot of work to get to v8 64bit I assume, I'm no help but from what I've read you could help push it forward.
It would be a shame for RISC OS to get left behind at 32 bit with only older CPU's in the coming years.
I hope your community can push it forward now it's opened up.
Even if that somewhat goes against what you try to do with software.
I think most of RISC OS is in rather old assembler.
Therefore it is a rewrite, which is a shame.

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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:58 pm

jahboater wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:03 am
Thanks fruitoftheloom,

It is not the same BCM2837 as the Pi3 used.
The new product is built around BCM2837B0, an updated version of the 64-bit Broadcom application processor used in Raspberry Pi 3B, which incorporates power integrity optimizations, and a heat spreader (that’s the shiny metal bit you can see in the photos). Together these allow us to reach higher clock frequencies (or to run at lower voltages to reduce power consumption), and to more accurately monitor and control the temperature of the chip.
The improved power integrity of the BCM2837B0 package, and the improved regulation accuracy of our new MaxLinear MxL7704 power management IC, have allowed us to tune our clocking and voltage rules for both better peak performance and longer-duration sustained performance.
I am sure I remember that as thicker pathways to the four CPU cores.

I guess the buying power of the RPF (5 million+ per year) helped get this change.
The "B0" is a "step" change. (The old one was--IIRC--A0.) That's absolutely routine in chip manufacturing. Every time you make even a minor change, you go to the next step. This was a bigger than routine change, so it went from A to B instead of A0 to A1. This just happens to be the first time anyone said anything about the stepping level of an SoC used on a Pi. For example, I just took a careful look at a Pi2Bv1.1 on my desk. The SoC is marked as a BCM2836B1.

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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:57 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:41 pm
So when are you going to get RISC OS up to the 64bit era.


It is still 32bit with a lot of work to get to v8 64bit I assume, I'm no help but from what I've read you could help push it forward.
It would be a shame for RISC OS to get left behind at 32 bit with only older CPU's in the coming years.
I hope your community can push it forward now it's opened up.
Even if that somewhat goes against what you try to do with software.
you do not know much about RISC OS do you?

RISC OS is tied to the ARM ISA, which the AARCH leaves behind, so it will never be AARCH64, that is the first change in ARM that is not possible to have RISC OS come out the other side of, I really wish they would have kept the ISA so RISC OS would be possible.

Though we will not be left behind, as there will be 32-bit ARM CPU's for a long time comercially, and there will be those that make higher end 32-Bit ARM ISA CPU's long after that. We have at least another 30 years before the high end 32-bit ARM is no more, by then we may have a reasobable replacement OS.

I personally do not like the AARCH64 ISA (sorry will not call it ARM, as the ISA is what is ARM, and the AARCH64 ISA is completely different). There are only 3 instructions in the ARM ISA that could be seen as unneeded, and keeping those three instructions would not have had any impact on the new, and they would have been able to keep it simple and improve opertunities for in-order multiple issue operations had they stuck with the ISA in the transition to 64-bit.

Remember thanks to the standard ARM MMU's we have had the abilty to address up to 256 TeraBytes of RAM since some of the ARMv5 and all the ARMv6 implementations (just looked it up in the ARM ARM for ARMv5 and ARMv6 to make sure i had it correct). So addressing is not really an advantage, unless you have one of the extremely few things that will benifit from having a single greater than 3GB flat block of alloated memory and you have enough physical memory to acomodate that.

And most things never need 64-bit operations, in fact more than 80% of what is done on any system still could be done with 16-bit operations, excepting memory access. The only things I can think of that benifit from 64-bit operations are extreme edge cases, or algorithms that are generally only used for showing off or benchmarking. Everything else can do just fine in a 32-bit world, and there are advantages to staying 32-bit for almost everything.
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bensimmo
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:21 pm

David, I was just reading reading over at the RISC site, I don't care for the history so much or 8/16/32/64, they wish to move forward from what I have read, ARMv7 is on the list. (but just the C compiler?) some want v8 and 64bit but that is a long target. Looks like they are aiming for their C rewrite to make life easier in future.
If that's not you no worries.
64bit only ARM is coming, Apple and Google (and likely Microsoft soon) are pushing it that way. If 32 gets left behind in ARMs development and licensing they'll get expensive, maybe.

Of course I have no idea on ARM timeline or marketing influences upon them by others, RPT will have a better idea on that.
If there is still a market for 32 bit and it's big enough and whoever owns ARM then can make money :-)


It's nice to see it's keeping cool for you :-)
do you plan to run it slower like you asked about ?

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DavidS
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:28 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:21 pm
It's nice to see it's keeping cool for you :-)
do you plan to run it slower like you asked about ?
Only if needed to keep cool. So far it has not yet gotten warm enough to worry about yet, so if it keeps like this no (I am doing a large compile in the background as I type this, and it is at 48C temperature right now).
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:47 pm

It looks like the RPi 3B+ is going to be the only computer I have that comes close to its level of performance :) .

Again I must thank both RPiT and RPiF for the extremely good design of these single board computers. I have never had an RPi of any model fail on the hardware.

Last night while I was asleep my x86 (Core i5) laptop/notebook did the unexpected. The Intel CPU casing cracked, and I think the die had broke. This caused enough heat (thanks to a bad design) that when I woke up to a loudish sound the battery was rapidly expanding (ended up bursting and cracking the glass infront of the LCD to which the polarizing filter is fused).

I am never going to get another Intel box again. I have always had issues with HW failures with Intel/AMD x86 boxes, be it motherboard caps, CPU failures, RAM failures, Bridge failures, etc, etc. The last generation of reliable x86 systems from the HW perspective came in the 80286 (often shortened to 286) generation, quite unusable by todays standards.

So another positive in favor of ARM based SBC's, for which the Raspberry Pi 3B+ is unbeatable in the cost per performance department. Also the quality of the RPi's (all of them) seems to be absolutely top notch in my experience.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
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jahboater
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:03 pm

DavidS wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:47 pm
So another positive in favor of ARM based SBC's, for which the Raspberry Pi 3B+ is unbeatable in the cost per performance department. Also the quality of the RPi's (all of them) seems to be absolutely top notch in my experience.
And performance per watt. My PC's seem to be about 6 times the CPU power but well over 50 times the electrical power consumption.
The Pi boards are well made. They have to cope with being used by children in a classroom, which I suspect is about a hostile environment as its possible to get!

Sorry to hear about the laptop.

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DavidS
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Re: Complements to RPiT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:08 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:03 pm
DavidS wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:47 pm
So another positive in favor of ARM based SBC's, for which the Raspberry Pi 3B+ is unbeatable in the cost per performance department. Also the quality of the RPi's (all of them) seems to be absolutely top notch in my experience.
And performance per watt. My PC's seem to be about 6 times the CPU power but well over 50 times the electrical power consumption.
It is even true compared to other current ARM SBC's. Look at the power consumption of the BB series or the Allwinner SoC based units, etc, they all use more than the RPi 3B+ often for lower performance.
The Pi boards are well made. They have to cope with being used by children in a classroom, which I suspect is about a hostile environment as its possible to get!
LOL:
I had not even thought about that being a hostile environment, though you are likely correct. Thank you for that.
Sorry to hear about the laptop.
RPi = Way for me to have fun and save power.
100% Off Grid.
Household TTL Electricity Usage = 1.4KW/h per day.
500W Solar System, produces 2.8KW/h per day average.

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