W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:38 pm

n67 wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:33 pm
I believe the first such user up vote/down vote site was slashdot.org. Which has been a swamp for a decade or more.
The fundamental problem is that we've yet to figure out a better way to determine quality than popularity.
Actually...we do have a better way. You find one, or a few, actual experts that can write well and you pay them to write the material and pay them (or others) to maintain it. The problem is that it isn't free because you can't hope that a million people without knowledge can match one expert.

ejolson
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:53 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:38 pm
n67 wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:33 pm
I believe the first such user up vote/down vote site was slashdot.org. Which has been a swamp for a decade or more.
The fundamental problem is that we've yet to figure out a better way to determine quality than popularity.
Actually...we do have a better way. You find one, or a few, actual experts that can write well and you pay them to write the material and pay them (or others) to maintain it. The problem is that it isn't free because you can't hope that a million people without knowledge can match one expert.
While a democratic system based on popularity has drawbacks, history shows that things often turn out worse when experts make all the decisions. The democratisation of computer programming and related technical fields resulting from the curriculum reform of teaching computer science to youngsters should lead to millions with sufficient knowledge to determine whether a Raspberry Pi tutorial is correct. Then again, it might not.

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:28 am

ejolson wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:53 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:38 pm
n67 wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:33 pm


The fundamental problem is that we've yet to figure out a better way to determine quality than popularity.
Actually...we do have a better way. You find one, or a few, actual experts that can write well and you pay them to write the material and pay them (or others) to maintain it. The problem is that it isn't free because you can't hope that a million people without knowledge can match one expert.
While a democratic system based on popularity has drawbacks, history shows that things often turn out worse when experts make all the decisions. The democratisation of computer programming and related technical fields resulting from the curriculum reform of teaching computer science to youngsters should lead to millions with sufficient knowledge to determine whether a Raspberry Pi tutorial is correct. Then again, it might not.
What it won't do is produce highly skilled SW people who can also write good tutorials.That intersection is actually quite small.

This is howwe do it here. Someone (usually me) writes some documentation, it's then passed to a copy editor who will make sure it's actually readable, then it comes back to the writer to ensure that copy editing has not changed any meaning, then merged. Not many bloggers go to that level.
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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:38 am

This is a main website for Android people.
It's a click are site really with heavy ads and to be honest this article is wrong and wronger with respect to Pi overlooking
(It appeared in my feeds).

So if the "Trinity Mirror style" news sites are spouting false information, what hope have poeple using Google searches got.

https://www.androidcentral.com/what-acc ... rry-pi-3-b?

That author has no idea what he is talking about.

But it is an excellent click bait article to sell a PSU and Heatsink and get them some money.

People will take it as fact though, buy a PSU with a great big switch in it so probably going to under only ;-) and start putting a heatsink on a "GPU chip".
Of course that if they are using the correct Pi based on the image they are using.

Also the overclock settings on a 3B+ are wrong iirc.

There was a topic a short while back where someone wanted to make a hardware/tutorial peer reviewed site, I wonder how they are getting on...

DirkS
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:30 am

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:38 am
This is a main website for Android people.
It's a click are site really with heavy ads and to be honest this article is wrong and wronger with respect to Pi overlooking
Did you write this on an Android phone with autocorrect switched on? ;)

epoch1970
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:46 am

A few more accurate guides is not going to fix a google ranking issue. A ton of advertising money could.
The alternative, churning a ton of guides on 1/3 party software/products (the hot topics, like multimedia) is out of scope for RPF, as already said. Plus it is not feasible (not by RPF, not by the community).
Using the product and software to communicate more, or better said communicate once again, is possible I think: preload guides and stuff in Raspbian images, communicate on the packaging, ...
Post-acquisition promo is also useful in case the buyer is not the user. Which should be often the case given the nature of RPi.
"S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de problème." Les Shadoks, J. Rouxel

ejolson
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:09 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:28 am
What it won't do is produce highly skilled SW people who can also write good tutorials.That intersection is actually quite small.
Rather than curriculum reform, maybe it would be more expedient to use cloning technology to produce software engineers in the future.

Is it possible that introducing computer science as a core topic alongside reading, writing and arithmetic would further reduce the quality of people's English skills? Could it also create the same feelings of hostility toward programming that many are proud to proclaim they have for mathematics?

In my opinion, it should be possible to introduce computer science into the curriculum in a way that reinforces other learning while lifting people out of the servitude of digital feudalism. While it was a waste of time for the peasants of the past to learn reading and writing, let's avoid a future where it is a similar waste of time for people to be computer literate.

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:42 am

ejolson wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:09 am
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:28 am
What it won't do is produce highly skilled SW people who can also write good tutorials.That intersection is actually quite small.
Rather than curriculum reform, maybe it would be more expedient to use cloning technology to produce software engineers in the future.

Is it possible that introducing computer science as a core topic alongside reading, writing and arithmetic would further reduce the quality of people's English skills? Could it also create the same feelings of hostility toward programming that many are proud to proclaim they have for mathematics?

In my opinion, it should be possible to introduce computer science into the curriculum in a way that reinforces other learning while lifting people out of the servitude of digital feudalism. While it was a waste of time for the peasants of the past to learn reading and writing, let's avoid a future where it is a similar waste of time for people to be computer literate.
Writing good tutorials/documentation is not just a question of English skills, it requires a certain mindset that a lot of people simple don't have. Hence the world of technical authors.

Meanwhile, welcome to the world of Raspberry Pi. Formed for exactly the reasons you state above.
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mfa298
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:03 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:42 am
Writing good tutorials/documentation is not just a question of English skills, it requires a certain mindset that a lot of people simple don't have. Hence the world of technical authors.

Meanwhile, welcome to the world of Raspberry Pi. Formed for exactly the reasons you state above.
This :D

It can also require a lot of time and patience (Possibly part of what JamesH means by mindset). The few times I've tried writing good guides or change documentation* (different audience but similar style and purpose). The documentation takes a lot longer to write than the actual works takes to complete and the documentation process usually involves working through the steps several times. How many of the blog writers do that?


* In this case I mean for changes made in an enterprise where changes should be fully documented and tested before going live. In this case the audience are already technically skilled but the documentation should be good enough that anyone else in the team can perform the same change.

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:24 am


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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:39 am

DirkS wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:30 am
bensimmo wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:38 am
This is a main website for Android people.
It's a click are site really with heavy ads and to be honest this article is wrong and wronger with respect to Pi overlooking
Did you write this on an Android phone with autocorrect switched on? ;)
Ah for flippity flip sake, yes. And then didn't check. That's why I don't write tutorials ;-)
Although it is about as good as some large news websites.

hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:39 am

mfa298 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:03 am
The documentation takes a lot longer to write than the actual works takes to complete and the documentation process usually involves working through the steps several times. How many of the blog writers do that?
Mind you; that's still better than throwing a video up on YouTube to show what one has created with no explanation of how or what was even used. Often not even a link to anything which might offer some insight. That's just showing off, wanting to score bragging rights, rather than helping anyone.

Documentation is hard, does take a long time to craft, and it's difficult to strike a balance between novice and expert. Professional technical authors have an aptitude for it and get paid for doing what they enjoy. Most people don't, find it a drag, and can easily run out of steam.

There is little enjoyment or fun in writing documentation for most people so it's not surprising it's often of dubious quality when there are other projects waiting in the wings or more interesting things to do.

It really is a case where 'walk a mile in their shoes' does give a different perspective, an appreciation why other's work may not be up to the standard we might like.

Chris D
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:41 pm

My 2 cents....

The OP was expecting a lot more than what he (She?) received. I can't understand how that happened, but I suppose if someone glossed over some articles or the website and saw all the really cool stuff you can do with a PI, a person might not read the details that they are required to do something more than pressing the "ON" button.

That is understandable, however, it is not understandable why the OP persists with the complaint.

Waste of time, not at all for the millions of us who enjoy the challenge of doing something or making something rather than buying something.
Waste of Money, $35.00 is a great value for the PI, however, this is if you knew what you were buying.
Most of them collecting dust, I'm sure many are collecting dust and I'm sure many are being utilized. I have about 10 being used, 2 collecting dust at the moment.

Based on the post and the response later from the OP, I am sure this person is very unhappy in his/her life and lashing out on this forum is just a symptom of a much greater problem in their life.

Chris D.

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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:55 pm

As a one-time computer consultant and technical writer (for clients - not for publication) there are many things I learned. Among them are:

1) Regardless of your audience, always define abbreviations the first time used (e.g. means "for example"). This is something that posters herein often fail to do.
2) Always run your final user document past the eventual users before release.
3) Have your final documents proof-read by someone who has not been involved in your project. You can't do it yourself!

(I could go on forever about use of present tense, capitalisation and so on - but I won't.)

However, I suppose that nowadays it's easier just to take a video and stick it on YouTube (a vehicle that I never use).

Here's a true story regarding my second point:

I once delivered a real-time computer system, for which I had written the operating manual, to an oil company in Teesside in the north of England.
As the trainee night-shift of operators arrived, I showed them the manual and said, "try a few simple commands, like entering the date. You can't harm anything, since the oil refinery isn't connected yet and the computer has been thoroughly tested in the factory" (true).

They were skeptical about computers and I wagered as I left, "If you break this computer, short of using a hammer, I'll buy the night-shift a round of beer".

As soon as I arrived the next morning, I was met by the entire night-shift who laughed, "Broons a' roon - yer computer was (expletive deleted) in ten minutes". ("Broons" is the local argot for Newcastle Brown Ale.)

And so it was. When I investigated, I learned that, while my manual had said, "Enter date and press 'Enter'", it did not say "Take your thumb off the button". So the naive user kept his thumb on the key until a latent queue overflowed, over-wrote a chunk of memory and screwed the operating system

We all had a rollocking good lunch that day ...
Since it was at my expense, I forever afterwards insisted on having end-users review the manual, in front of the actual system.

Alan.
IT Background: Honeywell H2000 ... CA Naked Mini ... Sinclair QL ... WinTel ... Linux ... Raspberry Pi.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:43 pm

jardino wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:55 pm
2) Always run your final user document past the eventual users before release.
(Lovely anecdote elided for space.)

My wife once wrote a document for faculty and staff in the unit she worked for. She got a frantic call one Sunday evening from a faculty member...she'd forgotten to include how to log out of the unix account.

On the flip side...if you go out on the web and look up document preparation using the -ms macros in nroff and troff, you'll see that she is one of the people credited with editing the second edition of the document.

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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:08 pm

jardino wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:55 pm
1) Regardless of your audience, always define abbreviations the first time used (e.g. means "for example"). This is something that posters herein often fail to do.
That's in the International Business Machine's (IBM's) style guidelines and was enforced by their technical writers when I wrote a couple of books for http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/

I try to do that on here if it's new jargon that isn't regularly used.
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Unhappy
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:06 pm

Hi

Came back after a break, my wife wonders what happened to my "radio project just sitting there".

Im surprised how nontoxic this forum really is. Some really good points have emerged.

Yes, most of us will think Raspberry Pi tinkers are elitists who dont understand why common people
doesnt understand Linux, symbian, soldering et.c.

The learning curve is VERY steep and my 11-year old daughter of these modern times will soak up
every information she needs from Youtube. If its not on Youtube it doesnt excist.

So you guys have to really connect on that level. The leading by showing is the name of the game.
Dont assume anything. Long boring texts with "then install driver" kinda info isnt helping anybody.
TUTORIALS.

So, I posted my problem in troubleshooting forum. Keep helping, and dont patronize us "not so interested
in Raspi but lets give it a try" people.

"More autonomic vacuum cleaners to the people"

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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:31 pm

Yes, most of us will think Raspberry Pi tinkers are elitists who dont understand why common people
doesnt understand Linux, symbian, soldering et.c.
You'll find most RaspberryPi Tinkerers are people who have only just learnt a small bit about Linux, Sybian(whatever that is?), and can only dab a bit of solder on 40 pins and hope it works, if it looks pretty that's a bonus.

Never assume, just because they try to help, they are elite and know everything.
Think of them as a Teacher, have a good general idea but don't know the answer to everything. They know because they have just learnt it recently (or 5mins ago they looked it up).

hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:28 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:31 pm
Sybian(whatever that is?)
Sybian is probably best described as a sex toy. Symbian is an operating system.

Heater
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Unhappy,
Im surprised how nontoxic this forum really is. Some really good points have emerged.
Why thank you.

We are not "toxic". We are just regular guys and girls hanging out for a chat and very happy if we can learn something along the way or help somebody get what they want to do done. Sure we might be rough around the edges and get impatient some times. Such is human nature.

Really I don't know where this whole "toxic" idea comes from. This is one of the most well behaved forums on the internet.
So you guys have to really connect on that level. The leading by showing is the name of the game.
Dont assume anything. Long boring texts with "then install driver" kinda info isnt helping anybody.
TUTORIALS.
With all due respect this kind of statement is bound to ruffle some feathers. You cannot come here and dictate what "you guys" should do or not do.

Understand that we are all here on the same footing. Perhaps we know stuff, perhaps there is a lot we don't know and come to find out. All in our own free time. It's very hard sometimes to judge what level of understanding someone has when asking a question. If we are in the mood we may try to help. Writing tutorials is too much to ask of someones leisure time.

As for the "common people". Whoever they are. I believe they can do anything they set their mind to. Now more than ever in history, given the information available on the internet. My father got into programming those 8 bit computers when they arrived in the 1980's. Some years after he had retired. He was no engineer or such before that. He was just curious.

birdydon
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:34 pm

I started a blog in 2008. The hosting fee for the blog is $120 (U.S.) a year. Back in 2008 - 2010 I had some readers but now I have very few. The blog will go away in a few months when the fee is due. But a blog is useful at times when you want to post an article or notice just for your friends. The popular social networks are too invasive with respect to privacy.

I had a RPi 3, model B, about 4 years old that I never found a use for... until now. It took about a week of computer "tinkering" to get an early version of the blog up and running. That's okay, I am retired and this is fun for me.I found and subscribed to a free dynamic DNS service. Just a few days ago the blog went "live" running out of my home and no hosting fees.

If someone who wants to compare the Pi to other computers, here's a little history. In the early 70's I programmed in FORTRAN for an IBM 1401 computer. That machine had punch card input and line printer output. Data was stored on tape drives. The FORTRAN compiler was a stack of punch cards about 8 inches high that was loaded into the computer before the program could start to execute. Those were the days! It was the state of the art and lot's of fun. Now we have the RPi to play with.

BTW since the Pi 2 Is running the blog 24/7 I had to buy a Pi 3 for something to play with!

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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:03 am

hippy wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:28 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:31 pm
Sybian(whatever that is?)
Sybian is probably best described as a sex toy. Symbian is an operating system.
:-)
Ah yes, need to read properly*, but still, on a Pi? An old defunct mobile OS which died out before the Pi started. It's not been dead long enough to be resurrected yet ;-)

Not your typical Pi user question :-)


*That's going to make my adverts interesting for a while ;-)

hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:15 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:28 pm
We are not "toxic" ... Really I don't know where this whole "toxic" idea comes from. This is one of the most well behaved forums on the internet.
Sorry; but to me that's just like a bunch of racists saying they are not racists and are the most non-racist people around. Just because someone won't see it or won't accept it doesn't mean it isn't so. And that is exactly why it is so difficult to change institutional and systemic issues; "there is no problem here".

You obviously won't agree but I do believe those who have come to the forum and called it toxic do have valid points.

BTW: On your own admission you were banned from this forum for a week at one time. Was that justified or was it unreasonable ?

mattmiller
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:17 pm

My thoughts

Toxic is an extreme word.

The posts on this forum (like others) can be friendly and useful

But a number of them are not

And a small number have lead to toxicity (if you take it to mean persons leaving and never coming back or persons being banished)

IMO, there are a number of long time contributors who can, from time to time, come across in a bad light (I'm sure, I myself have at times)

Instead of taking an attitude of - I've been here forever/know everything/don't care what people think etc - it would make things seem a lot better to people seeking help if some of us just cut out negativity wherever possible.

Including attacking each other.

Some people may be unable to do this - it is then up to the rest to simply ignore bad behaviour - not point it out/criticise it

Matt

Heater
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Re: Raspberry Pi is a waste of time (and money).

Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:42 pm

hippy,
...to me that's just like a bunch of racists saying they are not racists and are the most non-racist people around.
I find that analogy totally absurd. It's blowing whatever unpleasantness people may have encountered on this forum totally out of proportion.

Labeling this forum as "toxic" is an absurd generalization. There are many and varied people here most of whom seem to be perfectly civil and quite willing to help where they can.

Labeling this forum "toxic" is an insult to all those fine folks who participate here.

Certainly sometimes respondents can be sarcastic, condescending or whatever. That is not nice but on the other hand I don't believe it is very common. Anyway it is no different than interacting with humans anywhere else in life.

Certainly new visitors might sometime meet with a negative response, I see no evidence that this has reached "toxic" levels on this forum.

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