Lynbarn
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:44 am

meltwater said:





I"m still interested in the amount of duty the components do cost, is it 2.5% as mentioned?  I agree that it is backwards (and already signed the ePet), but hopefully not enough to kill the long term hope for the UK route (as perhaps just one of the factors).



Each type of component (memory, capacitor, resistor, LED, IC, connector, etc.) attracts a different level of duty - some are 0-rated, others can be 3.5%, 5%, maybe more. So what the average is for the board as a whole I have no idea. Having looked into it before setting up the ePetition, though, I can tell you; IT'S A MINEFIELD!


scologic
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:44 am

Liz,

No offence to anyone but I dont do insults in forums hence the fact my comment is a quote. I've been dealign with numerous manufactures in china for years and chineese english or engwish (no offence ment) is how it is quoted. I dont deal with Jamaca, i do use a lot of scottish companies 'nd wi aw' speek like this'.

Obviously the team are feeling the heat a little over this issue. I think there is more support for UK manufacture than oursourcing to china which is the route everyone is way to quick to move on. Personally having been there done that I know UK production is better. It even comes down to the quality of the PCB where i've had UK manufactured units initially and Chinese on larger quantity the same artwork board just isnt the same.

You have also affected the concept of the whole project by choosing this route to outsource. Just as you are choosing China for PCB Manufacture youve weakened the case as to why not outsource coding to Eastern Europe or India.

With regards to the others in the thread loosing the plot, come on chaps be constructive and not offensive. The team are doing a grand job but it seems that they are making a few poor decisions on manufacture and it also seems to be all about 'business' and 'money' two things not for profit shouldnt really be about when your talking about 62 cents per board.

Whats not been considered is the posibility that the poor child buying the $25, and it failing due to poor manufacture  -thus costing $25 of industrial waste.

scologic
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:53 am

Lynbarn said:


meltwater said:





I"m still interested in the amount of duty the components do cost, is it 2.5% as mentioned?  I agree that it is backwards (and already signed the ePet), but hopefully not enough to kill the long term hope for the UK route (as perhaps just one of the factors).



Each type of component (memory, capacitor, resistor, LED, IC, connector, etc.) attracts a different level of duty - some are 0-rated, others can be 3.5%, 5%, maybe more. So what the average is for the board as a whole I have no idea. Having looked into it before setting up the ePetition, though, I can tell you; IT'S A MINEFIELD!




UK import duty is detailed at HMRC as 2.5% with import VAT at 20% the same as normal VAT. The VAT is reclaimable by the VAT registered company and they then charge 20% on the sale price... whats difficult about that. It's not ciggies and wine we're talking about here....

Lynbarn
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:09 am

scologic said:


Lynbarn said:


meltwater said:





I"m still interested in the amount of duty the components do cost, is it 2.5% as mentioned?  I agree that it is backwards (and already signed the ePet), but hopefully not enough to kill the long term hope for the UK route (as perhaps just one of the factors).



Each type of component (memory, capacitor, resistor, LED, IC, connector, etc.) attracts a different level of duty - some are 0-rated, others can be 3.5%, 5%, maybe more. So what the average is for the board as a whole I have no idea. Having looked into it before setting up the ePetition, though, I can tell you; IT'S A MINEFIELD!



UK import duty is detailed at HMRC as 2.5% with import VAT at 20% the same as normal VAT. The VAT is reclaimable by the VAT registered company and they then charge 20% on the sale price... whats difficult about that. It's not ciggies and wine we're talking about here....

No: it's electrical/electronic components - and it isn't quite as straightforward as you suggest.  See the HMRC website for details of the Tarif used to determine import duties for specific items, under 16,000 different categories:

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/cha.....e=document

 

 
What is the Tariff?

The Integrated Tariff of the United Kingdom is usually referred to as the Tariff and contains all the information to help you with importing or exporting. It includes references to the relevant laws and regulations.

 
What it covers

Although the UK version is called the Integrated Tariff of the United Kingdom, the same format is used throughout the EC. Importing and exporting are covered by EC Regulations, so regardless of the country in which you operate, The Tariff equivalent acts as a comprehensive point of reference. Please note that all EC countries have the same commodity codes, duty rates and procedures as the UK.

The Tariff consists of three volumes:


Volume 1 contains essential background information for importers and exporters. It covers duty relief schemes, contact addresses for organisations such as Department Of Trade and Industry, Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (formerly MAFF) and Forestry Commission. It also contains an explanation of Excise Duty, Tariff Quotas and many similar topics.
Volume 2 contains the 16,000 or so Commodity Codes set out on a chapter-by-chapter basis. It lists duty rates and other directions such as import licensing and preferential duty rates.
Volume 3 contains a box-by-box completion guide for import and export entries - the C88 form, the complete list of Customs Procedure Codes (CPCs) for importing and exporting, the Country Codes for the world, lists of UK docks and airports both alphabetically and by their Entry Processing Unit (EPU) numbers and further general information about importing or exporting.



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meltwater
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:18 am

Lynbarn said:



Each type of component (memory, capacitor, resistor, LED, IC, connector, etc.) attracts a different level of duty – some are 0-rated, others can be 3.5%, 5%, maybe more. So what the average is for the board as a whole I have no idea. Having looked into it before setting up the ePetition, though, I can tell you; IT'S A MINEFIELD!



Yeah I tried to look it up myself, and thought it was getting complex rather fast (it's tax law - such things are never simple or logical).  But if say it adds 10% extra for building UK (tax+higher prices), that's a 1000 extra boards for the same cost, at this stage that's a big difference while the capital is being built up.  Later on, it may be less of an issue, due to higher numbers, less risk meaning less margin is required.

Of course, it does come down to money (and good business), even on non-profit (if not more so as you have to balance everything carefully or it will fail).  By it's very purpose, any savings on cost returns for the good of the project…particularly at this point.  Surely it is better to play it safe?

You can get bad quality from the UK as well…and you can get excellent quality from China, no need to paint with a broad-brush here, I'm sure they've looked at enough boards in enough detail to know what is good and bad, and choose suitable production.

The nice thing is that they don't have to commit to a particular margin to please shareholders etc, so they have the option to change things when they have more headroom, if they want to.
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n3tw0rk5
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:26 am

Import duties are a mare

I used to import photovoltaic solar panels and from China and when i decided to look into components for inverters to use on canal boats I was surprised at all of the different levels of duty involved.

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scep
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:49 pm

scologic said:


when your talking about 62 cents per board.


The only person talking about '62 cents' is you. You came up with that figure yourself and now are using it in arguments as though it is a fact. It's a straw man and it shows how weak your own argument is.

You have decided that you know better than the Foundation even though you have no data at all upon which to base your case. So instead of an evidence-based argument we get straw men and slippery slope fallacies (think of the "poor children"!) and anecdotes. Criticisms, properly researched and argued, are always welcome. It's your  self-righteous indignation based on assumption after assumption that grates.

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:03 pm

Improved spelling, punctuation and a little capitalisation would also help!

Sylvain
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:20 pm

scep said:


You have decided that you know better than the Foundation even though you have no data at all upon which to base your case.


OK, so give us the data …

Someone else says "10%". OK, lets make hypothesis on that.

What is 10% … It's a lot or a few depending on what you are speaking about.

In our case it's less (half ?) than what the P&P will cost for much of us or interestingly nearly exactly what Euro has lost vs USD between late october 2011 and today (and as Rpi is quote in USD …).

The question I ask myself is would I prefer a 35$ Rpi made in China or a ,say, 39$ Rpi made (assembled, tested, packed ...) in E.U. (U.K.). For me it's the second answer without any doubt. What do think the others ???

Sylvain.

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:29 pm

Don't feed the Troll.

TheEponymousBob
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:41 pm

Sylvain said:


The question I ask myself is would I prefer a 35$ Rpi made in China or a ,say, 39$ Rpi made (assembled, tested, packed ...) in E.U. (U.K.). For me it"s the second answer without any doubt. What do think the others ???


I think your preference doesn't enter into it.  The boards weren't priced at $35 because that's how much they cost, they were designed to hit a $25/35 budget, with that price determined by how many units the foundation wants to make available with a given incoming budget.  You and I might be willing to pay $4 more, but that would knock the charitable side of the venture off track.  And that's the side that matters.  The enthusiasts who are buying for personal use are secondary.

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scep
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:16 pm

For some reason this thread reminded me of this. So cheers for that

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RaTTuS
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:46 pm

scep said:


For some reason this thread reminded me of this. So cheers for that


+1 for that
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jwatte
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:10 pm

The cost of customs is not so much the duty, as the cost you get charged by your carrier to deal with declaring and paying the duty. This can be higher than the cost of the duty itself!

Plus the weeks it may stay in hold while it's all taken care of. Plus the time YOU have to spend dealing with the carrier dealing with customs -- quite the opportunity cost, there!

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liz
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:31 pm

scologic said:


Liz,

No offence to anyone but I dont do insults in forums hence the fact my comment is a quote. I've been dealign with numerous manufactures in china for years and chineese english or engwish (no offence ment) is how it is quoted. I dont deal with Jamaca, i do use a lot of scottish companies 'nd wi aw' speek like this'.


Can you honestly not perceive the fact that what you said was the verbal equivalent of a slitty eyes gesture? Saying "No offence meant" does not guarantee that none is taken. I've had a lifetime of dickheads coming up to me and pretending to order flied lice; or telling me "Me love you longtime", and thinking it's funny. My tolerance for this sort of thing is low; putting it inside quote marks doesn't make it any less racist.
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scologic
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:49 pm

Can the foundation give us a 'uk' board and a 'chinese' board option to purchase?

Whether my 62cent fee is accurate or not there are key points.

1) Not every component will be at a high import duty and a moderate percentage of the boards components would be uk sourced i would suggest.

2) There is still profit on the boards as the foundation did mention 1 for 1 possibilities way back using the same model as XO. So the import duty is still very small if boards are half the price .

3) There is still an electronics import duty on the 10000 boards making the import duty difference even smaller. ie if one rate is indeed 3% and another is 7% then it's a 4% fee difference.

4% of 25USD is 1 USD. BUT how much more has the federation paid on shipping for weight that would have already been in the UK. So far the difference is getting smaller and smaller.

Also how much have they paid in courier surcharges?

Shipping the board at the end of January also means they are using expensive air freight than sea freight as China to the UK takes 5 - 6 weeks for delivery.

If the boards are half the price to make in cost terms the duty is halfed or even quartered.

So I apologise for touting 62cents.. its probably a lot less than that, and closer to the price of a postage stamp..( and thats before currency exchange rates from GBP to USD to pay for the boards).

Finally there will be a number of commercial companies buying into the project, why does the federation charge a small additional fee onto the price of the board as it's not for education use. Bit like software and home/student pricing. That way they could recover the cost of the import duty but keep it EU/UK manufactured.

Are you seeing the flaw in the argument yet?

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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:52 pm

scologic said:



Are you seeing the flaw in the argument yet?


Yes for a start the admin and arithmatic required would be a major headache

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:53 pm

This is getting astonishingly tedious!

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liz
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:57 pm

I agree. Thread closed.
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TheEponymousBob
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:10 pm

scologic said:
[...]
So I apologise for touting 62cents.. its probably a lot less than that, and closer to the price of a postage stamp..( and thats before currency exchange rates from GBP to USD to pay for the boards).


So your theory is that your back-of-envelope calculation based on a whole bunch of assumptions shows it to be order-of-postage-stamp difference in cost, and the RPi foundation, who presumably had actual quotes in front of them saw that order-of-postage-stamp difference and decided to scrap their publicly stated hopes for a UK assembly and contract out to the Far East... for fun? Just to annoy us? As part of an international espionage conspiracy?

The thing about back-of-envelope calculations is that the most important part of the process is looking at the answer and asking yourself "does this actually make sense?" What you"re suggesting would only make sense if the team were imbeciles (which is doubtful, considering how far they"ve come) or downright evil (and to the best of my knowledge, none of them are sporting moustaches).

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