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abishur
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:49 pm

TheLaw said:


lworbey said:


Probably should take that up with the government that seem to not want any manufacturing in the country. And this is true for most european governments it seems.


I think the tax thing is a bit of a red herring. They priced it wrongly and then had a choice of changing where they said they would build it or change the "headline" price. They chose the former. This whole project has been pretty much fluffed up in various ways.



Meh, h8s gonna find something about anything to h8.    I think you're also coming in here at the end of everything and waving your banner talking as if you have all the back room insider info, when you don't.  You have a casual superficial look and then made a snap and disproportion response.  And hey, you have the right to your own opinion.  I'm just, respectfully saying, that you're mislabeling the effect as the cause.

It's not that they're a bunch of shysters who are desperately trying to fix a mistake by pulling a fast one on us.  They've been very open and upright with us.  Honestly so open and upright to the point where it's caused nothing but headaches and heartaches for them!  Because they've been letting us peak into the processes so much people have misinterpreted plans as promises.  They say they want to produce it in the UK and now when the reality hits that they can't do it and meet their price point (which has always been one of their high priorities) they had to make a hard choice.  Do we sacrifice the price point or do we sacrifice our preference in manufacturers?

Obviously if they suddenly raised the price point *everyone* would be crying foul and rightly so!  /. would be crowing about how they called it and the r-pi, like the OLPC would fade into obscurity and ridicule.  So the reasonable and logical course of action is to sacrifice your preference in manufacturers.

That said, if you really feel so strongly about where items you buy are made then I applaud your principle (though I also question where your computer was built )!  But trying to say an up and coming *charity* trying to get their first batch of 10K boards printed off could change anything by not using a Chinese company is a little bit unrealistic   If you want to point that anger somewhere go yell at Apple or ASUS or any of the other big players.

Also, as if this post wasn't large enough, your comment about how the r-pi is out to train people to be programmers but then there won't be a job for them because hardware manufacturing is being outsourced to China is a false analogy
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

tonycollinet
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:27 pm

spurious said:




But the R-Pi project is not about Greed, it's about giving!

So please stop being negative and thank these guys for the fantastic work they are doing!


That!

In Spades! *thumbsup*

Sydknee
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:33 pm

I don't care who makes it or where its made its a brilliant idea and I want one!

I was always tought that you take what ever route you can to reach your goal.

If there was something like this available when I was at school I wouldn't be telling people to switch their PC off and on again all day long.  All our school had one Comodore PET and that seemed to be broke when it was our classes turn to use it!

Keep up the good work and I will be on the shop waiting for the next 3 weeks!

roelfrenkema
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:42 pm

scep said:


TheLaw said:


I am severely disappointed ... I am out, no RPi for me ... unacceptable... it's a disgrace ...I would rather not have any RPi at all.


Well, it's a shame to lose you. The "Logout" button is at the top of the page just under the topic heading.

It looks like this:


That is a very acid response that was completely unnecessary! The man has a strong believe and some arguments going for him. No need to bully!

roelfrenkema
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:46 pm

spurious said:

But the R-Pi project is not about Greed, it's about giving!
So please stop being negative and thank these guys for the fantastic work they are doing!


But that’s the point this does taint that 'giving' image. If you didn't know yet, people die in Chinese sweatshops. Apple can afford that obviously but can a foundation like this?

spurious
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:56 pm

roelfrenkema said:


spurious said:


But the R-Pi project is not about Greed, it's about giving!
So please stop being negative and thank these guys for the fantastic work they are doing!


But that’s the point this does taint that 'giving' image. If you didn't know yet, people die in Chinese sweatshops. Apple can afford that obviously but can a foundation like this?


I think you need to read more closely, as these guys have done their due diligence, so your your "sweatshop" comments are totally unfounded and quite insulting!

TheEponymousBob
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:00 pm

roelfrenkema said:

spurious said:

But the R-Pi project is not about Greed, it"s about giving!
So please stop being negative and thank these guys for the fantastic work they are doing!


But that’s the point this does taint that "giving" image. If you didn"t know yet, people die in Chinese sweatshops. Apple can afford that obviously but can a foundation like this?

Chinese manufacturing and Chinese sweatshops are not synonymous. Liz (whose father is Chinese) addressed this point in the blog comments.

Lynbarn
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:02 pm

roelfrenkema said:


spurious said:


But the R-Pi project is not about Greed, it's about giving!
So please stop being negative and thank these guys for the fantastic work they are doing!


But that’s the point this does taint that 'giving' image. If you didn't know yet, people die in Chinese sweatshops. Apple can afford that obviously but can a foundation like this?



People die on British construction sites - does that mean we should all move out of our houses and live in tents? No! People die on British farms, - should we all stop eating British food? No, of course not! That is the same argument you are using here.

Although working conditions are not as good in China, they are getting better. Not all Chinese manufacturers resort to unethical practices, and not all manufacturers in this country are entirely ethical either.  Have you visited the manufacturer that the Foundation is using? Do you know what agreements they have put in place? Please don't generalise.

TheEponymousBob
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:48 pm

TheLaw said:

TheEponymousBob said


I"ve not been long here at this forum, but sometimes the transition from a sense of community to a sense of entitlement can give you whiplash.


Sense of entitlement…hmm ok. I presume you are talking about me feeling entitled not to be bullshitted to. Yep. We were told it was going to be made in the UK.


First off I was not referring solely to you, but to the fact that there does seem to be a fairly regular supply of a few people criticising those who have put so much time and money into doing something positive simply because not every single aspect of what they are doing is entirely to their liking. Recently this has surfaced particularly in relation to the first batch: they arent making enough (using their own funds); first come first served isn"t fair; I want to buy more than one from the first batch etc. It sometimes seems as though appreciation is an all-or-nothing affair.

Now as to your claim of bull*****ing, I obviously can"t say for sure, but I"d be surprised if the foundation had ever stated definitively that not only would the boards be assembled in the UK but that every batch would be so assembled. I think it is more likely that they would have said something more along the lines that they would make every effort to favour UK manufacturing where possible. And right now, with this batch, it clearly isn"t. And even if they had told us that they would definitely be manufactured here, that falls under "s*** happens". Things change; economies fluctuate. Being forced to change your plans isn"t the same as bull*****ing, it"s a fact of business. For a start, bull*****ers rarely lay the facts out for the world to see on the front page of their blogs.

I"d also pick you up on something you said in another post about having priced the boards incorrectly and sticking with the "headline" price. From what I understand, you have this backwards. The boards weren"t designed with specs in mind, then allocated price estimates; the prices were set first, based on how many units they hope to distribute, and an idea of what the total budget will be, then the boards designed to that budget. But unlike the price the foundation are committed to, manufacturing costs will not remain static. Quantity in particular will make a huge impact on the cost-per unit, so once the first run of 10,000 is complete, I have no doubt that they will keep re-assessing the options and bring the assembly home as soon as it is practical.

Finally, one upshot of all this is that they have kicked off discussions with the DBIS that in the long run could see a tax issue that damages UK manufacture being resolved. What have you done to promote UK manufacturing today?

scologic
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:51 pm

The problem with the import taxation argument is flawed.

So they build the boards in china… but they then need to pay import tax on the manufactured board which has labour and All components being import taxed with chinese profit.

There is also shipping costs and the small fact that chinese manufacturers are well known for shipping less than ordered cos "that what dolla buy you", as you pay for the good before manufacture.

There is also a case that they could manufacture in the UK and try and keep uk jobs and aid in revitalising this sector in the UK.

Personally i can visit all of my manufacturers involved in my products apart from an lcd manufacturer. I'm not paying over the odds for the product and i see a higher quality as a result.

Im very disapointed in the excuse. after all import duty is 2.5% 62cents if the board indeed costs 25usd. not for profit doesnt mean they dont have margin on the board.

so import duty would be even less.

VAT is applied anyway and reclaimed etc. and is still charged on the manufactured boards.

The addition that a uk manufacturer may also share the same vision as the prject and keep the price keen is another kickin the teeth and im sure there is good hard earned uk tax payers money in this project thats being sent overseas. In fact its worse… they main purchaser of these boards look to be schools and colleges – so yes more tax payers money sent to china..

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scep
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:54 pm

roelfrenkema said:

That is a very acid response that was completely unnecessary!
I agree! What an awful thing to come onto a charity's forum and call them a disgrace. Should be ashamed....

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liz
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:19 pm

scologic said:



There is also shipping costs and the small fact that chinese manufacturers are well known for shipping less than ordered cos "that what dolla buy you", as you pay for the good before manufacture.


I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and not banning you outright because I suspect you haven't thought things through - but please recast your Widow Twankee bit here in an Afro-Caribbean dialect and ask yourself whether you still feel comfortable about it.
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

spamel
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:27 pm

I am sure somebody said that import tax is paid on individual components coming into UK, but not if those components are soldered onto a finished board. This is where the financial difference lies, or that is my understanding of it.

I think the end game is if the RasPi interests you and you are happy with the absolute transparency and honesty of the RasPi team, which I don"t believe can be disputed, then buy one. Or three.

If the thought of British manufacturing losing out because of a stupid law put in place by our Government, or of buying something made in China sickens you, then don"t buy it. I am pretty sure the world won"t stop for the RasPi foundation if a few people opt out although I am pretty sure they would like all to participate. It is your money, do as you please. Why vent spleen on the forum about it though, do you seriously think they will halt production now just because a few people are disgusted about something they are basing on generalisations? I have a friend that works for a firework company in Huddersfield, he visits China each year. You probably let off fireworks on bonfire night (if you"re British!) or on New Year that were made in China. Get over it.

PhilS
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:51 pm

I find it hard to believe that those people posting don't own anything made in China.

In fact, can anybody think of any possible way of posting on this forum without using something that has some element of Chinese manufacturing in?

10 internet points if you can.

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scep
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:08 am

The funny (sad) thing is that if the Foundation had not had such noble goals to manufacture in the UK and had not been so transparent about this, no one would have batted an eyelid. They would have expected  it to be made in China. No one was planning to buy a RasPi because it was "Made in the UK with Pride". They were going to buy one because it was cheap.

The hypocrisy is galling. People boo hoo hooing that China are baddies - up the Brits! - whilst happy in the fact that nearly everything around them - from their trainers; to their Xbox; to the Kid's Mr Potato head toy; to their cameras; to their mobile; to their baseball cap; to the kettle that just boiled the water for their tea; is made in the Far East.

Benedict White
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:23 am

Arghhhh....

<Bangs head on table....>

<Bangs head on table again....>

Still doesn't make sense.

The HMRC and others see manufacturing as dirty, so discourage it.

We can compete with China, for example we can make shoes at the same price, but with less suffering, if only the small companies did not have the red tape and could raise the money to expand.

We probably can compete with China in electronics as well, were it not for daft tax rules which did not actually help our component manufacturing (as I suspect they just could not get the finance either).

So... unless you have a totally Chinese free house, or will pay double for a Raspberry Pi to cover the costs... don't complain about the down side. Sign the petition to change the tax rules, see here:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....-2/#p29307

or here:

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.g ... ions/27158

peterwatts
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:53 am

congratulations on pressing the big -raspberry- button...hope the chinese new year doesn't clog things up...so keen to start on the tons of things lined up for the boards...

really tricky topic outsourcing...good timing to be thinking about rebuilding skills in UK though as the pendulum can't be too many years from swinging back to making insourcing sensible and skills aren't just widgets that can be built in a day...

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Jessie
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:39 am

Lets try to keep this topic cival, and positive.  Everyone including the foundation members are disapointed that they could not reach a deal with a UK firm to produce the boards.  These people have put up thier free time, and their personal property as colateral to make a non-profit device happen.  So calm down or the tread gets locked, and offenders get the ban-hammer.

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n3tw0rk5
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:27 am

Congratulations on the teams hard work and and effort both time wise and financially to get the RasPi to this stage, it says a lot about the people involved and there dedication to a vision of a cheap PC for kids to learn on.

Well done

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psergiu
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:31 am

I'd like to congratulate the team for this !

All you naysayers - those 10 boards that were on eBay were UK hand made - have you bidded on any of them ? If not, i would like to refer you to the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.

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riffraff
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:55 am

! ! ! !  T I M E    O UT  ! ! ! !

Enough with all of this HOLLERIN' and all the NEGATIVE WAVES!

Everyone who has posted something negative regarding manufacturing decisions, sit down, shut up, and take a chill pill.

First and foremost, this is NOT your project. It is not a government project. It is not funded by tax dollars. YOU didn't invest in anything and, while you are entitled to your opinion, you have NO right to voice it in an abusive manner.

Let the people who've labored and invested in it make the best decisions possible to bring it to pass. If you've never been involved in creating something like this, you have no idea how difficult and fragile a process it is. "Amazed" is such an inadequate word to describe how I feel about their progress to date.

I read about this project almost a year ago on the news banner on my new Android phone. For such a small private group, this kind of successful turn around time is typically impossible, and I'm sure it would have failed if it weren't for the extraordinary work ethic and dedication to cause of those involved.

Don't for a second think of giving them any grief about this. They did not create the economic problems that both of our countries face, but they have brought what they feel is part of a solution to the problem.

If anyone has ever seen The Shawshank Redemption, or read the original Stephen King book, understand this Raspberry Pi is merely a small rock hammer. It will not immediately bring down walls, but applied with patience and persistence of A LOT of dedicated people it has the potential to do wonders.

The greatest of these wonders is that it may be the bulwark that stops and turns around the slide into technological malaise we've seen in the western world this past decade. Liz and Eben went to CES. That should have been COMDEX. I should have been able to go and meet them in my own back yard. Sadly, COMDEX went the way of the dodo for the same reason a lot of the tech world has gone away – because there's nothing new.

So… I don't know about you, but I'm gonna praise this thing as something new.  I'm gonna order one, maybe more later, spread the word, contribute anything to the effort that I can and hope for its success. Then I'll be able to write my senators and congressmen and say "We NEED to do this here".

hcjehg
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:23 am

! ! ! !  T I M E    O UT  ! ! ! !

+1

adlambert

Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:14 am

Good news on manufacture!

A couple of things about PCB assemby.

1. High numbers of bare PCBs are made by automated process.

2. PCB population is either mind-numbingly boring if there is any manual work involved, or if it is surface mount and flow soldered then it is mostly automated.

Assembed PCBs are ATE tested too.

So, for this initial batch of 10,000 I don't think there are many jobs involved. It's a tiny run on the grand scheme of things and seems to me to be perfectly sensible to get it done at the optimum price.

So, we have been told that the foundation will look again for future manufacture runs, so what's to worry about?

If this does get the kids involved as hoped then the UK will be doing more of what we want to be doing - I mean the IP, the design, developement work and the software engineering. I don't believe that any of us want to be doing manual PCB population for a living, even routine coding can quite happily go overseas to where the cost of living is not ridiculous.

Think about ARM themselves, the technology at the root of the R-Pi devices. A successful employer that don't manufacture anything.

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meltwater
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:29 am

adlambert said:


Good news on manufacture!



If this does get the kids involved as hoped then the UK will be doing more of what we want to be doing


I think you"ve hit on a solution there…use UK kids to produce the boards! Perfect.  Ok, shouldn't really joke, it's a serious issue I know.



The process will be mostly automated, since all except the connectors are surface mount.

I expect the bad/poor UK quotes are due to larger factories not really being interested in a fixed run so put out a highish quote, so when R-Pi returns with a 10k-a-month (or larger…) type order it"ll be better.

Also, if lower numbers of type-A boards are required, then that could keep a small UK producer running full tilt all year round (in the current state of things, that is a huge thing on it"s own).  Plus the more raspberry sources [sauces] the better!

Edit: Couldn't resist...no harm in having your finger in more than one pi, afterall...



I"m still interested in the amount of duty the components do cost, is it 2.5% as mentioned?  I agree that it is backwards (and already signed the ePet), but hopefully not enough to kill the long term hope for the UK route (as perhaps just one of the factors).



Still I fully support the choice made, totally sensible and reasonable, less cost means more money to put back in to produce more units faster…that has to be a good choice for release when there a lot of people waiting and hoping for their slice.
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gregtaylor
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Re: We've hit the big red button - manufacture has started.

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:38 am

I agree with the sentiment, it is a great shame that so little IT is now built in the UK but I am just as sad that we do not build many cars, washing machines, televisions etc etc.  I used to drive a UK-made Honda but have never been sure if that counts as British or not?  It employed a British worker but where are the designers, i.e. the highly skilled jobs?

I admire the plan to try to get future building in the UK.  I don't think any other IT manufacturer would do that.  If we have a ridiculous situation that components are taxed but whole systems not then surely that is the larger part of the problem and not one the RPi team can fix.

Surely, the whole reason for the RPi is to restart IT innovation on a wide scale in the UK so we WILL be building here in the future?  Who knows, perhaps the UK could become the design and development capital?  It was very close to being so in the 80s.

Still looking forward to placing my order....

Greg

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