NeoFromMatrix
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Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:26 pm

Hi

I got my Raspberry yesterday and i found some things i would like on it too;

wifi antenna on board(it schould still have ethernet)
better processor, (for example the quad core snapdragen with 1,5 ghz (tha will come in the google lg nexus 4))
bigger ram (2 gb ?)
sata port for a harddrive(or two) (for a server oder fileserver)
micro sd and sd card slot

only one version, not 2

thats all for the first
what do you think ?

Intruder
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:25 pm

NeoFromMatrix wrote:Hi

I got my Raspberry yesterday and i found some things i would like on it too;

wifi antenna on board(it schould still have ethernet)
better processor, (for example the quad core snapdragen with 1,5 ghz (tha will come in the google lg nexus 4))
bigger ram (2 gb ?)
sata port for a harddrive(or two) (for a server oder fileserver)
micro sd and sd card slot

only one version, not 2

thats all for the first
what do you think ?
Not a lot...... It's built to a price point so none of that will be happening

Int

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:31 pm

NeoFromMatrix wrote: better processor, (for example the quad core snapdragen with 1,5 ghz (tha will come in the google lg nexus 4))
bigger ram (2 gb ?)
sata port for a harddrive(or two) (for a server oder fileserver)
Take a look at the Cubieboard. Only 1GB of RAM, and a 1GHz clock (though, apparently, can be overclocked to 1.5GHz).
micro sd and sd card slot
Adafruit makes a very nice microSD adapter that fits the Pi.
what do you think ?
I think you're trying to design an SFF PC.

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Lob0426
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:28 pm

There are about a half dozen threads on this topic.
here are a couple of links.
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 24&t=13908

http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... f=24&t=495

It just is not possible to keep a multi-core, Wireless, 2GB memory with a SATA under $100. You are describing a board that will cost more than a Panda Board ES (about $180) which is dual core, 1GB, WiFi and Bluetooth with no SATA.

The cubieboard, if it pans out, will be a real contender against the Raspberry Pi at $49 (512MB $45).
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 62&t=16505

The Raspberry Pi has a specific group as its target. Those needing an inexpensive device to learn programming. It has become an everything to everybody board. That is because the price is low enough that they do not fear destroying it.

The next RasPi version will have the same goals. I do not see a WiFi version on the horizon. A multi-core version might happen but, it will be an incidental occurence, the processor package has features they want, in the right price range and just incidentally is multi-core.

The features I think they will look for in the next generation are; ( )= reason they might do it.
*ARM SoC with v7 not v6, possibly faster, most likely will end up with a 1GHz at best. (software support)
*SoC supports ethernet natively. Most likely 10/100Mb not Gigabit. (expense)(LAN9512 not necessary)
*SoC is designed to be a USB host. It will still be USB 2.0. They may look at OTG support. (current USB problems)(design of BCM2835)
*SoC supports inexpensive, newer memory packages, just like it does now. (hopefully will move up to DDR3)
*They will try to steer away from any hub chips (LAN9512) mounted on the board. (price savings in manufacture)

You could end up with a 900MHz, 512MB, one USB, one Ethernet board with extra GPIO. Essentially an upgraded A Model with B model features. No LAN9512 chip would save money and board area for other uses such as additional GPIO. It would have a chance of being supported by UBUNTU and ANDROID Operating Systems due to newer instruction sets. At least this is what I would shoot for in a new version. I agree that dropping to a single model would be easier. But would you be able to hit the $25 price point that is their main aim, for the education goals they set themselves.

I personally believe that the majority of purchases for education will be the B model. Schools will want hte Ethernet. Wireless is just not as essential as most people believe it is. Its cost would drive the new RasPi way out of the $25 price range. It would also add more testing and certification to the mix.

A likely prospect is the BCM11311, which I believe is a SoC for tablets. It has many of these features already. Currently I believe its cost is too high to meet the price point that the foundation needs. That may change! It will be a Broadcom chip at its core.

It is a big endeavor to create a new version. I think it will be a while before they thionk it is necessary to even try. I believe their experiences, in creating and producing a board for the public, will be seen in the next design whenever that will be.

If people were only using the RasPi B model, and soon the A model, for what it was intended, there would be no real significant issues left to address at this point. It programs just fine. It is all the other stuff that it is used for that, that is bringing out issues outside the iriginal design criteria.
Last edited by Lob0426 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pygmy_giant
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:33 pm

As these boards are so cheap, I think it makes sense to add some kind of bus to better connect multiple Pi's into a super computer.

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:47 pm

pygmy_giant wrote:As these boards are so cheap, I think it makes sense to add some kind of bus to better connect multiple Pi's into a super computer.
OMG its the pygmy again :lol: ;)

And what sort of "BUS" do you suggest? PCI, VESA, Lightning(Apple), Proprietary? I am sure there are at least a hundred more bus types to choose from out there!

And why would a "Super Computer" fall into the Foundations Education goal?
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:53 pm

Why wouldnt it fall into the Foundations goal ?

It would make learning about paralell processing affordable.

I didn't design the Raspberry Pi or the BCM2835 so I can't suggest a bus.

ha - ha (?)
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:57 pm

If you want better processing power and bigger RAM you might as well spend you money on a PC or an Android tablet.
The only reason why the PI has been so successful is it's low price, if you start beefing up the spec you'll end up with a credit size computer board with an undesirable price tag.

Richard S.

pygmy_giant
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:04 pm

Agreed - but not if you are talking about budget expandable super-computer.

That's the only aditional feature that makes commercial sense to me.

Otherwise leave it alone - I agree.

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:07 pm

pygmy_giant wrote: I didn't design the Raspberry Pi or the BCM2835 so I can't suggest a bus.
That was the cheap way out!
I expect better of you @pygmy :D

EDIT: actually I remember @liz saying there is like a 2Gb interface that might be used at the camera connector. SPI I think but am not sure. :oops:
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:12 pm

I'm just a bumbling amature - what bus would you suggest?

You seem to know more about them than I do.

Maybe the pi has the capability already but needs a suitable custom OS (no mean feat).

Not sure either of us is qualified to comment on that.

I can't see primary schools teaching distributive processing to 8 year olds, but I could imagine universities buying 50 Pi-like boards and connecting them up - could be viable?
Last edited by pygmy_giant on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lob0426
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:34 pm

Really the Ethernet is the connector to build your Super Computer. If you decide to use a "BUS" you would then have to build some sort of backplane system to connect it all up. With the Ethernet you use switches (routers) to connect it all up. There are some threads about "brambles" that really do a much better job of explaining it than I ever can. I would have to follow some directions to get it to work.

As I stated in the Edit above there was something months back, by @liz, about there being a 2Gb interface for the camera I believe that could be used. It was in a discussion about adding a second Ethernet port to a RasPi so it could be used as a router.

And I agree with you, that you and I are not qualified! ;)
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:41 pm

OK I want everything that everyone mention and I want it for $10 more.

Seriously I do see some future revisions if and when these add-on's meet the price point and can be economically included into the PCB.
To ask for accessories that even some PC's do not have at a reasonable price is sheer fantasy and not likely to happen and even if they did it would cost in the same range as the other devices that do have those accessories.

The price is not always just the chips and components but also licensing to use the technology as well.

The fact is that to do some of the multimedia stuff people are doing you have to buy additional licenses for the Raspi.

The Raspberrypi is a unique device that has stormed the computer world but lets not forget the original intent of the device and embellishing it with more functionality than it needs is not going to help that original intent.
If you are more worried about ,spelling, punctuation or grammar you have probably already missed the point so please just move on.

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:00 am

No. Perhaps the next evlolutionary step is going to have to be a quantum leap as the Pi is pared-to-the-bone as it is.

Sorry to keep on about it, but getting back to the super computer idea, I seem to remember that the lego super-computer with 60 Pis that appeared as a news article a while back was described as only really a way to prove and teach the concepts of distributive processing, as the ethernet was not really fast/efficient enough to give adequate bang for buck compared to the performnce of a comparably priced high-end multi-core PC.

Maybe there is a way to actually stream-line and make such a multi-board bramble type set-up cost effective rather than merely a curiosity. Perhaps this could be done by using the camera connector as suggested or by breaking out some other connections? I guess a clever/adapted OS would also be needed...

I wll stop talking now as I am just speculating, sounding like a stuck record and already way out of my depth.

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:46 pm

IF (and that's a big 'if') the Foundation decides to do another machine in less than 3 to 5 years, I would look for a sever oriented board to work in conjunction with Pis as PCs/workstations/training systems.

To that end, the cubieboard has, basically, everything needed to do this (which means that one could leverage *that* effort without any time or effort on the part of the Foundation). If the cubieboard were to use a dual-core or more SoC (as prices drop), that would cover pretty much everything.


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Wizard
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:12 pm

Nothing wrong with the hardware!

What we need is more complete binary blob with support for panels, CMOS cameras etc etc.
If you want to build xbmc-like gizmos there's better hardware available.

I for one struggle to use 512 MB memory whilst GPIO tinkering but on the other hand memory is cheap so I'm not complaining.

What I would change if I had free hands is the pin-layout of the GPIO - and the naming convention whilst at it ;)
I would also try to find space for a MCP23017 and thus creating more onboard IO.

But that's because it would suit me better which is perhaps not everyone else choice.

To be honest, Raspberry Pi is actually already perfect - otherwise it wouldn't have sold this well ;)
Raspberry Pi - finally a worthy replacement for A500!!!

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:03 pm

Perfect might not be good enough if the competition is better.

The Pi has created a market which others could steal if it does not retain at least one usp such as price or community support.

Others like Allwinner and Cubieboard are alredy muscling in.

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:49 am

pygmy_giant wrote: Others like Allwinner and Cubieboard are alredy muscling in.
While I cite the cubieboard in discussions like this, it is not a replacement for the Pi for a number of reasons. The first is price: $10 to $15 more than the Pi. The second is support...looking at their site, I don't see a whole lot of it. While the processor is faster (which is (a) good, and (b) may not always be true), from what I've read the graphics accelerator isn't as good. Reports on the Mali400 indicate that it will handle 1080p at 30fps...as compared to 60fps for the VideoCore IV.

I am also uncertain that the cubieboard will achieve sufficient production numbers to be viable, as compared to the Pi which has already managed that and--as evidenced by delivery delays--shows no sign of slowing down....and the Model "A" has yet to ship, plus to real bulk orders for schools really haven't started yet. Even the first run--10K Pis--vastly exceeds any numbers I've seen on the cubieboard.

So, all in all, the cubieboard has nice features--and, indeed, some I really want...in a server--but it's no Raspberry Pi.

Edit to add: The people doing the cubieboard are making a "crowd sourcing" effort to raise the funds to go into production. They're trying to raise $50K, and they've gotten about $30K so far. At this point, basically, the cheapest board you can get by going in on the crowd sourcing is $60, so the EFFECTIVE price is rapidly approaching twice as much as a Pi.

This is, obviously, a much different funding model than the one the Foundation pursued. I think the people behind the cubieboard are trying to get into production on a shoestring, though. While I wish them luck, I wouldn't bet the rent on their success.

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:15 am

The fact is, that as early as last year, There was no, or almost no, boards in the under $50 club. Now there are rumors everywhere and actual equipment is showing up. Some boards are going to be stronger in some areas than others. There is going to be room for them all for quite some time. Everyone is trying to get into the "my board does everything" category. We will see more designed boards rather than scabbed tablet boards as time goes on.

I expect to see boards that will specialize in servers, multimedia, specialist robotics and probably self routers and PBX. Some are going to inevitably target electronics hobbyist. The field will stretch out in time.

We are hopefully only seeing the beginning.

The cubieboard may not have quite as good video, but it will have better file handling due to the built-in SATA. So its overall performance may end up better, especially when handling stuff under 1080p. We will have to see when there are more of them out there. And the community is a large part of the Raspberry Pi success!
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:54 am

Lob0426 wrote: The cubieboard may not have quite as good video, but it will have better file handling due to the built-in SATA. So its overall performance may end up better, especially when handling stuff under 1080p. We will have to see when there are more of them out there. And the community is a large part of the Raspberry Pi success!
That's why I'm looking at it as server to work *with* Pis, not as a *replacement* for the Pi. Think of a situation with a basket of Pis in a network with a cubieboard (or two) as whatever sort of server is needed...database server, for instance.

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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:35 am

Cubieboard also could act as the primary node in a cluster (Bramble). Giving fast access to a storage drive.

I am happy with my RasPi Web Server, but all that video power is kind of wasted for that use.

I hope the board designs under $50 keep coming. Now if there was just an American company willing to jump into the arena!
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swampie777
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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:18 am

I would like to see an optical link between Rpi stacked boards along with POSIX for teaching operating systems and multi cpu systems.


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Re: Ideas for the next Raspberry

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:22 am

Whilst thinking about all the great features the next version of a Pi might have, or any other product for that matter, there is one enormously valuable thing the Pi has that has been over looked in this discussion.

There are a huge number of Pi's out there. There will be even more in the coming months. They are all the same (pretty much) They will all be the same for the next year or two or however long.

That sameness is a huge advantage to users. It means we have the same hardware and the same problems. I'm guessing a huge majority are using Raspian so we all have the same software issues. That means we have a huge community of users who will have solved or worked around these issues and can provide solutions.

Put simply, the Pi platform is a standard and having a standard with know issues and solutions is a great asset to users.

As soon as you redesign the Pi or take some other board into use you are fracturing the standard and getting back into yet another forum with a billion user questions being asked all over again.

Keeping the Pi as an island of stability for as long as is reasonable may be the best thing for the user community. That stability can be the Pi's greatest asset.

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