drgeoff
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet 802.11ac, PoE - I2C Clock Stretching

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:41 pm

MadnessandPi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:20 pm
DId the new 3B+ hardware fix the issue with I2C clock stretching?
The new hardware is the RF stuff and the LAN/USB stuff. The GPIOs are part of the electrically unchanged SoC. Does that answer your question?

W. H. Heydt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:48 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:04 pm
hippy wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:02 pm
LeMoog wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:19 pm
it is a shame that they didn't include an option for more RAM like the original Acorn B+.
There is an interesting response from Eben on the blog when asked about more memory; "RAM is going through one of its periodic price spikes. It wasn’t feasible to add more to the design while sticking to the $35 price point. Don’t worry though: we’re well aware of the appetite for more RAM, and will come back to this once prices moderate".

That's not the usual 'the SoC doesn't support it' response we normally see.

So, has part of the incremental improvements been that the SoC can now address more memory, the option has been added, and it is, as Eben appears to be suggesting, it's still 1GB simply because memory is currently just too expensive ?

If that is so I think we can guess what's coming some time. Maybe next Pi day. Maybe sooner.
No changes to the RAM limitation AFAIK. Will ask.

He's might be talking about Pi4. Which is still a long way away.

EDIT: A further quote from EU.

"There are limitations to the SoC architecture which cap us at 1GB. These are in theory fixable, but we’ve not prioritised that while RAM remains so expensive."

So would need a respin of the chip - V. expensive and time consuming.
That's the way I read it... I would surmise that the Pi4B SoC has the ability to address more than 1GB, but that the initial boards will only have 1GB for the reason listed. (I say "has" rather than "will have" because I am presuming that the SOC is almost certainly in silicon by now, even if said silicon still needs revisions to work properly.) I would remind the onlookers--and especially the nay sayers--that the Model B launched with 256MB of RAM and the initial plans for the Model A were for 128MB. *Eventually* the Model B got 512MB and the Model A actually launched with 256MB--and the successor chip, the A+, started with 256MB as well before being upgraded to 512MB.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:58 pm

Okay...lots of congrats (and I agree...nice upgrade with good features that people have wanted) and a certain amount of whinging (get over yourselves...the subject of most of your unhappiness has been long known and a point release isn't going to address them, and you should know it). The blog entry answers part of one question and another not at all, so here goes...

In the blog it is stated that boot from PxE will be enabled on all Pi3B+ boards. There is mention of MSD boot over USB, but nothing is said about whether or not it will be standard or still require setting an OTP bit. So my questions are:
1. Will USB MSD boot be enabled by default?
2. Will these boot features still be driven by OTP bits or are they simply enabled in the '2837B0 boot ROM (no tests of the bits at all)?

Edit to add... Gordon has answered question #1 in the comments to the blog post. The answer is: Yes. Question #2 is of much less importance, but I am curious about it.
Last edited by W. H. Heydt on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

dantesinferno
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:08 am

I concerned about Google having too much influence on the Raspberry Pi 4. Will there be anyway to disable their hardware in the RPi4? They are too much like Huawei. I like the RPi and don't want to have to switch.

RoySalisbury
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:12 am

Just so my posts are not taken in a negative way. I think the Pi 3 B/B+ is fabulous. Its the best $35 investment I have ever made (and I have about 15 of them used in different projects).

I'm just always trying to solve issues with my own projects that would make them better if the Pi had 'X', 'Y', or 'Z' features.

Keep up the good work guys.

Roy

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:31 am

A bunch of whingers on here.
Save it for the Pi4, this is a point release and a better than expected one.

Heat issues addressed.
Ethernet speed addressed, not perfect but as good as can be got on USB2.0.
PoE yippee.

5GHz Wifi is now on the map, easier now for BT to work at the same time?
Are we going to see a Zero WH+ with 5GHz? Please :D
Lots of good RF sensors down in 2.4GHz get swamped by 2.4GHz WiFi, 5GHz is a great change.

Would make an interesting WiFi server for mobiles, tablet, phones etc.

Anyone who knows anything about RF and compliance would know this could not have been easy.
I had been thinking about getting more 3's but was not completely happy, my main issues have been addressed.
Now my collection of Pi3+ can start and be made into useful things.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

W. H. Heydt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:32 am

dantesinferno wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:08 am
I concerned about Google having too much influence on the Raspberry Pi 4. Will there be anyway to disable their hardware in the RPi4? They are too much like Huawei. I like the RPi and don't want to have to switch.
How so? I think it's more of the case of companies like Google fitting software they hope people run to the hardware the RPT designs. It's kind of a case of those 19 million (and counting) Pis being hard to ignore. (At the stated production rate, sales will hit 20 million along about mid-May.)

Heater
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:34 am

dantesinferno,
I concerned about Google having too much influence on the Raspberry Pi 4. Will there be anyway to disable their hardware in the RPi4? They are too much like Huawei.
What on Earth are you talking about?

Yours is the first suggestion that Google has any influence on what our guys in Cambridge do.

What the hell do you mean by "disable their hardware in the RPi4"?

There is no Google hardware here. There is no RPi4 yet.

You are just trolling, right?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Imperf3kt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 am

I believe they are talking about the AIY kit, which has nothing to do with the Pi itself.

Next they'll accuse Logitech of trying to influence the Pi hardware design because their gamepads are compatible.
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

klricks
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:57 am

What is the maximum current limit available to the USB ports?

Looking at the schematic https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... ematic.pdf
Grid location A-5 shows U9 (USB power controller) with a part number RT9741CGV which has a maximum spec of 0.7A
I would have thought that it would have been the RT9741AGV which has a 1.5A limit........
Data sheet: http://www.richtek.com/assets/product_f ... 741-01.pdf
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated Raspbian Buster w/ Desktop OS.

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jbeale
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:05 am

I don't see any indication that 5V chip you mention is connected to the on-board USB ports. It might be for some other onboard device or port?
On the other hand, what is the maximum current spec of that micro-USB power input to the R-Pi? If you subtract off the current drawn by the 3B+ itself at maximum load (not sure, but over 1 A), how much current do you have left for all the USB ports combined?

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Imperf3kt
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:32 am

If the microUSB input follows spec, it has a maximum rating of 2.4A
So, 2.4 minus what Pi uses, minus GPIO draw = available current if 2.4A is available - exactly the same as the Pi3b
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

fruitoftheloom
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:06 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:48 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:04 pm
hippy wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:02 pm

There is an interesting response from Eben on the blog when asked about more memory; "RAM is going through one of its periodic price spikes. It wasn’t feasible to add more to the design while sticking to the $35 price point. Don’t worry though: we’re well aware of the appetite for more RAM, and will come back to this once prices moderate".

That's not the usual 'the SoC doesn't support it' response we normally see.

So, has part of the incremental improvements been that the SoC can now address more memory, the option has been added, and it is, as Eben appears to be suggesting, it's still 1GB simply because memory is currently just too expensive ?

If that is so I think we can guess what's coming some time. Maybe next Pi day. Maybe sooner.
No changes to the RAM limitation AFAIK. Will ask.

He's might be talking about Pi4. Which is still a long way away.

EDIT: A further quote from EU.

"There are limitations to the SoC architecture which cap us at 1GB. These are in theory fixable, but we’ve not prioritised that while RAM remains so expensive."

So would need a respin of the chip - V. expensive and time consuming.
That's the way I read it... I would surmise that the Pi4B SoC has the ability to address more than 1GB, but that the initial boards will only have 1GB for the reason listed. (I say "has" rather than "will have" because I am presuming that the SOC is almost certainly in silicon by now, even if said silicon still needs revisions to work properly.) I would remind the onlookers--and especially the nay sayers--that the Model B launched with 256MB of RAM and the initial plans for the Model A were for 128MB. *Eventually* the Model B got 512MB and the Model A actually launched with 256MB--and the successor chip, the A+, started with 256MB as well before being upgraded to 512MB.

Maybe VC5 will become a reality ????

As has been discussed previously VC5 was being worked in old Broadcom and EA is working on VC5 Graphics Driver.

A VC5 would distance the RPi from the "clones', and likely be a less tortuous upgrade path than a new SoC !!
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Retired disgracefully.....

fanoush
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:12 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:06 am
Maybe VC5 will become a reality ????
If not then Eric Anholt spends too much time with it :-)
He works on VC5 drivers since at least July 2017.

gregeric
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:23 am

klricks wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:57 am
What is the maximum current limit available to the USB ports?

Looking at the schematic https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... ematic.pdf
Grid location A-5 shows U9 (USB power controller) with a part number RT9741CGV which has a maximum spec of 0.7A
I would have thought that it would have been the RT9741AGV which has a 1.5A limit........
Data sheet: http://www.richtek.com/assets/product_f ... 741-01.pdf
That part supplies H5V, HDMI 5V source. Unrelated to USB.

Over near the new PoE header is what looks to be the same old 2553 USB current limit switch, not shown on the partial schematic. Given no mention of it in the blog, it's likely they have left Rlim unchanged for the same ganged 1200mA nominal.
Last edited by gregeric on Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

cjan
Posts: 737
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:44 am

like Eben said RAM is expensive by now, but ROCK64 4G-ram version only $45, 2G version $35.
and more component USB3 etc. not talk about Pis had over 10M sold base, how come?

jerryrp
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:39 pm

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:46 am

Just stopping by to say big thank you to RPi Foundation people AND everyone else here. I'am happy :)

When I got my first RPi, I was thinking like - why not, it's cheap, whatever. But then I started to realise how great is support for this boards(i mean raspbian distro), and community with really dedicated and smart people. Every questions that i had - i found answers right away. Even for schematics and circuitry. And now I moving forward, learning and trying PLC's. Have plans to learn FPGA (not so cheap and "easy" compared to popular plc's tho)

Keep up good work! Raspberries definetly worth their price - even as "cheap media player", but when you look at learning and DIY potential - they are perfect, and getting better with every new release.

tkaiser
Posts: 103
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:21 am

Those tests there report Gigabit Ethernet throughput of just 220 Mb/s which is a lot lower than the other numbers that are floating around. Does anyone know how MagPi is doing this network test? The description 'This test copies an incompressible 100MB file to each Pi' pretty much explains nothing other than a file was used (so maybe filesystem access has an influence, maybe using network and USB IO at the same time -- see viewtopic.php?f=63&t=207897)

Still curious how the test was conducted...

tkaiser
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:56 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:32 am
If the microUSB input follows spec, it has a maximum rating of 2.4A
Have the specs changed? https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hella ... B_1_01.pdf talks about 1.8A maximum (which seems pretty plausible when looking at those tiny contacts)

fred44nl
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:32 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:26 pm
fred44nl wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:15 pm
how to upgrade from model 3B to model 3B+ ??
can I just move my micro-SD from the 3B to the 3B+ ??

You need to full update Raspbian Stretch to get the latest kernel / firmware before moving the SD Card:

Code: Select all

sudo apt update
sudo apt dist-upgrade

If you are running an alternative OS contact the Developers...
does it have to be Stretch, or will good old Jessie still work as well ??
mind you, I don't need 5 GHz wifi, as I have an ethernet cable.
headless RPi 3B running from usbhdd.

tkaiser
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:50 am

fred44nl wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:32 am
does it have to be Stretch, or will good old Jessie still work as well ??
If the assumption is correct that all the magic happens in kernel and firmware packages on Jessie you need a file /etc/apt/sources.list.d/stretch.list with these contents and a file called e.g. /etc/apt/preferences.d/99kernelandfirmware with those contents

Code: Select all

Package: firmware-brcm80211 raspberrypi-bootloader raspberrypi-kernel
Pin: release n=stretch, origin archive.raspberrypi.org
Pin-Priority: 1000

Package: *
Pin: release n=stretch, origin archive.raspberrypi.org
Pin-Priority: 490

Package: *
Pin: release n=jessie, origin archive.raspberrypi.org
Pin-Priority: 500
[MOD EDIT - NOT REQUIRED]
Last edited by tkaiser on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:04 am

fred44nl wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:32 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:26 pm
fred44nl wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:15 pm
how to upgrade from model 3B to model 3B+ ??
can I just move my micro-SD from the 3B to the 3B+ ??

You need to full update Raspbian Stretch to get the latest kernel / firmware before moving the SD Card:

Code: Select all

sudo apt update
sudo apt dist-upgrade

If you are running an alternative OS contact the Developers...
does it have to be Stretch, or will good old Jessie still work as well ??
mind you, I don't need 5 GHz wifi, as I have an ethernet cable.

If you use Raspbian Jessie you will need:

Code: Select all

sudo apt update
sudo rpi-update

..but in the Blog it states unsupported, considering Stretch has been with us 9 months it is really time to change !!
Retired disgracefully.....

gkreidl
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:07 am

fred44nl wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:32 am
does it have to be Stretch, or will good old Jessie still work as well ??
mind you, I don't need 5 GHz wifi, as I have an ethernet cable.
I've asked the same question on the blog page and both Eben Upton and Simon Long answered. They don't plan to make the new firmware available for Jessie via apt-get upgrade. Simon said that using rpi-update should work, but this is always a bit risky.
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HiassofT
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:07 am

dom wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:34 pm
Certainly some of it. EEE is supported.
If the switch you connect to supports it you save about 0.5W.
Just tested with the latest 4.14 rpi-update kernel which added EEE support and indeed it makes a nice difference. Idle power consumption of headless RPi3B+ (running Raspbian Stretch lite) was almost half a watt less.

About 2.4W without EEE
3bplus-eth-no-eee.png
3bplus-eth-no-eee.png (3.42 KiB) Viewed 3846 times

About 1.9W with EEE
3bplus-eth-eee.png
3bplus-eth-eee.png (3.41 KiB) Viewed 3846 times

About 1.8W when ethernet is unplugged
3bplus-no-eth.png
3bplus-no-eth.png (3.42 KiB) Viewed 3846 times


On RPi3 I measured 261mA / 1.34W with ethernet connected and 225mA / 1.16W when eth was unplugged.

Maximum current draw of RPi3B+ with stock clock settings and EEE disabled I measured so far was 1.15A / 6W when compiling a linux kernel.

so long,

Hias

tkaiser
Posts: 103
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:11 am

gkreidl wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:07 am
fred44nl wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:32 am
does it have to be Stretch, or will good old Jessie still work as well ??
mind you, I don't need 5 GHz wifi, as I have an ethernet cable.
I've asked the same question on the blog page and both Eben Upton and Simon Long answered. They don't plan to make the new firmware available for Jessie via apt-get upgrade.
That's what apt pinning is for -- see my post above ;)

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