ejolson
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:18 pm

Paul Hutch wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:05 pm
SDSDAF3-008G-XI https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Sa ... kUYr6Jc%3D
Minimum quantity is 100 pieces :-(
It would be interesting for someone to benchmark these cards for random writes. If write speed is reasonable, maybe a small company functioning as a value added reseller could make a microSD version available in single-unit quantities with a warranty for use in the Raspberry Pi.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:39 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am
1. It's not a PSU issue.

I'm using a 5V -2.5A psu that came with an official kit.
Could be a faulty PSU... have you load tested it?
sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am
2. It's not a quality issue of the SD card

Cheap cards will corrupt after a few days. High Quality cards will corrupt after a few weeks. You cannot leave a Rapberry Pi on for a month 24h/24h without corruption...
Completely false statement. While that may be happening to you, it does NOT happen to everyone. I have had several Pi computers running 24/7 for many months continuously with no corruption.
sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am
5. USB boot is not a workaround

Because people with a Pi, Pi Zero and Pi 2 don't have a USB boot option.
And you are wrong once again. Models other than the Pi3B can be run from a USB device by having just the /boot partition on SD, then loading and running the root OS from USB. Since the /boot partition is treated as read-only most of the time (only written to during kernel/firmware updates), it is a valid work-around, as only writing to the card could cause corruption (if a card fails in read-only use, then it's definitely the card).

And, in fact, you don't even need the entire /boot partition. If you get the latest bootcode.bin from git you can have only that file on the SD card, and everything else will run from USB (including the /boot partition).
sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am
Final words

I was hoping I could use the Pi as small linux computer that is suitable for 24/7 use. I now know this will never be the case. If there are alternatives (being able to use the raspberry camera module would be a nice bonus), I would like to know. I'm willing to pay extra, that's not an issue.

I'm just tired of building stuff on a platform that destroys my hardware eventually. I'm about to send the bill of all my sd cards that I spent money on to the Raspberry Foundation and ask for compensation. UK is still a EU country, I live in a EU country, the EU has strict rules about this. You just can't sell hardware that destroys users' stuff and get away with it.
Good luck proving that in court... :roll:
sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:45 am
To those who claim to run 24/7 without issues: I'm pretty sure your use-cases are not really write-heavy, am I right?
Define write-heavy?

So now we have discovered the root of the problem. You are using the wrong medium for the task. FYI: SD cards are not designed for write-heavy use, and most say so in their warranty. There are high-endurance SD cards, but those get pricey and in large sizes can actually cost more than an SSD drive, and certainly more than HDD, which may be better options for what you are doing.
sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 pm
Okay, I had a few moments to relax, and allow me to apologize first. I was quite pissed off, as an important component of my home automation system broke down (it was on the corrupted sd-card that was in my Pi 3).

... Sorry, my frustration got the upper hand here... :oops:
Been there, done that myself. Apology accepted.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:52 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am
hojnikb,
There are plenty of raspberry like boards out there that don't have issues with sd cards
Really?

Can you name one? Can you link to any evidence that is has no such issues?

No, don't do that. This is the wrong place. Let's just say I find it hard to believe. You could PM any such evidence if you have any.
some even come with eMMC!
That is great and all. But comes with other problems. Still does not fix the fundamental issue of the limited write lifetime of FLASH memory.
Better switch over than being stubborn with a single board.
I'm all for using the right solution for a particular job. However there are many ways to work around the fragility of SD cards on the Pi[*]. Using a read-only route for example. I'd suggest looking into those before switching to a Pi like board and giving up the amazing advantages the Pi offers.

[*] Not that I believe the SD card is any more fragile in the Pi than similar uses in similar boards or elsewhere.
Yes. A certain fruit type SBC using allwinenr chipsets doesn't really have any issues with sd cards. I've got 4 of these boards at home and i have yet to see a corrupted card. Can't say the same for my OG rpi model b. Obviously they don't sell as many as raspberry does, but if it was an issue, users would report it.
So yeah, i'd say corruption could very well be a design issue of raspberry rather than just users using bad sd cards.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:55 pm

Paul Hutch wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:01 pm
Heater wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am
hojnikb,
There are plenty of raspberry like boards out there that don't have issues with sd cards
Really?

Can you name one? Can you link to any evidence that is has no such issues?

No, don't do that. This is the wrong place. Let's just say I find it hard to believe. You could PM any such evidence if you have any.
some even come with eMMC!
That is great and all. But comes with other problems. Still does not fix the fundamental issue of the limited write lifetime of FLASH memory.
It is true that the raw NAND Flash ICs in all devices are similar there is one major difference. eMMC, like SSD, has a sophisticated built-in wear leveling controller specifically designed to give longer life from the same NAND flash vs. the simpler controller in uSD, SD, MMC, or CF cards. Of course the trade off is that when the uSD card wears out any user can replace it while most users can not replace a dead eMMC module easily.
Actually, thats not really true. Both sd cards and eMMC are lots of times sharing the same controller (as they can work with both). So the actually wearlevelling and garbage collection is at similar levels.
The issue is NAND flash itself (the most expensive part of the device) which is usually the lowest grade TLC then used for SD cards, since eMMC does require a little bit more reliability and performance (you can always replace the sd card, cant do that with emmc).
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:57 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:34 pm
Paul Hutch wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:01 pm
Of course the trade off is that when the uSD card wears out any user can replace it while most users can not replace a dead eMMC module easily.
Yes, I would never buy an SBC with on-board storage for that reason.

The Odroid C2 by the way, uses removable eMMC cards as well as uSD cards (you can boot off either) which gives you the best of both worlds. eMMC cards are also faster than uSD cards but much more expensive.
Thats really a non issue, since most if not all device priorities sd boot over nand boot. So even with a dead eMMC you can always boot from sd card and use the board.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:18 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory
SLC - Single Layer cell -100,000 cycles
TLC - 1000 cycles.
https://www.cactus-tech.com/resources/b ... al-systems
Buy cheap memory get cheap memory?

Guess I know which cards I would rely on more.
What is the biggest SLC card?
It would also depend on what cell size it was made in

Boot from SD, keep the rest on wear leveling USB/SSD?
Or better yet magnetic rotating disc?

Got quite few Pi's running 24/7, just checked some, they send me daily emails, 211 and 76 days uptime.
Probably since last time building power was played with, two different buildings.
I do not run Raspbian, I run PiCore, buffer the data to ram and write to a different partition once per day.
These units have been running for years, 8GB cards.

Are there any big FRAMs(or similar NV) that could be used as buffer storage yet?
Carbon based NRAM?
http://nantero.com/
Maybe Pi5 or 6 will just have one 32GB NRAM on it, plus microSD socket for 1TB NRAM.
Maybe even on chip?
Only tested to 1Tillion cycles :o
Could be an interesting year 2018
TLC at 1k cycles is nowadays only capable of such endurance using LDPC or some other form of smart ecc and dsp. With bch, you'd be lucky to get a few 100s cycles out of your run of the mill 15nm flash
3D is a different story, much better endurance due to much bigger cell sizes.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:31 am

hojnikb wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:57 pm
Thats really a non issue, since most if not all device priorities sd boot over nand boot. So even with a dead eMMC you can always boot from sd card and use the board.
*cough* CM/CM3 *cough* (Not actually SBCs, but...)

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:35 am

hojnikb wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pm
TLC at 1k cycles is nowadays only capable of such endurance using LDPC or some other form of smart ecc and dsp. With bch, you'd be lucky to get a few 100s cycles out of your run of the mill 15nm flash
3D is a different story, much better endurance due to much bigger cell sizes.
Given the claims for it, it's going to be interesting to see if XPoint comes far enough down in price and up in density to be a viable storage medium for uSD cards. It *could* be a real game changer...

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:26 am

Seen claims before for FeRam, NVRAM, MRAM, FRAM etc
And now NRAM, 3D Xpoint? I will believe it when I can buy them.

We need something new, TLC has been as pushed as far as it can go?
It would not surprise me if some SD cards have TLC but say they are SLC.
Hence destroyed SD'S? 100 cycles for 15nm TLC ouch.

I try not to use more than 16GB, most of mine are 8GB or less, Pi3 run 32GB USB which have better wear leveling?
The Pi3's are not 24/7, more desktops not embedded gadgets.
Anything larger and it is external USB HD.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:45 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:26 am
Seen claims before for FeRam, NVRAM, MRAM, FRAM etc
And now NRAM, 3D Xpoint? I will believe it when I can buy them.
Remember magnetic bubble?

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, you *can* buy Xpoint modules. Unfortunately, they don't have a lot of capacity and are being pushed more as a disk caching unit that primary storage.
I try not to use more than 16GB, most of mine are 8GB or less, Pi3 run 32GB USB which have better wear leveling?
The Pi3's are not 24/7, more desktops not embedded gadgets.
Anything larger and it is external USB HD.
Pretty much the same here. I have a couple of 32GB cards, but not really in active use. Any bigger than that and I switch to spinning rust (PiDrive) or SSD. I have several 60GB SSDs, including two that have been in continuous use for about 5 years now.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:55 am

I just want to point out (at least, as far as my little knowledge goes), you might be able to get away with a regular SD card that has just enough to boot the OS on, then have everything else write to a USB stick, or other solution that is not SD, that can handle higher loads and it would be much cheaper than focusing all your efforts on an SD card.

I mean, SD cards are designed to fit into a small space (physically), which can sacrifice speed, quality, storage (in bits/bytes--digital storage), cost and lifetime. However, you have much more options if you don't care if your storage device takes up more physical space. I mean, it is more difficult to put engineering into a smaller space, plus fewer humans are interested in using SD cards for computing than they are interested in using other devices like flash drives or HDD/SSD's for computing. This human interest affects the market, which affects the goals we place upon engineers in society. Simply put, this human interest affects the engineering behind the SD cards. That being said, I would suggest picking the device that is more appropriate for your use. I do not believe the engineers of the SD cards have your scenario in mind while making this SD card that is primarily focused for another purpose.

So I'd use the SD card just enough to load the OS and tell the computer to start reading/writing onto/from a USB device. This sounds like it would work for you, or anyone else who wants higher quality storage devices, especially when you want to get more bang for your buck and have higher demands than what micro SD cards are designed for.

So, if I am not wrong, you can have a high read/write speed on a USB-connected device, without using a high read/write speed on the connected SD card.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:20 pm

Eliter wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:55 am
So, if I am not wrong, you can have a high read/write speed on a USB-connected device, without using a high read/write speed on the connected SD card.
Yes and no. You can use a fast SSD drive on a Pi. Here's my Pi3 with one.

Image

But... the SSD connects to the Pi3 through a USB 2.0 port, so much of the raw speed is lost. On the other hand, SSD drives have other performance and durability enhancing features that aren't affected by the interface (much more powerful controllers, better wear leveling and garbage collection with less write amplification) so my SSD is still faster than any SD card, and it should last much longer too.

The surprising thing is that in larger sizes, an SSD can actually cost LESS than a micro-SD card. The 128GB above was slightly more than a Samsung EVO+, but much less than the Samsung Pro.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:19 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:26 am
Seen claims before for FeRam, NVRAM, MRAM, FRAM etc
And now NRAM, 3D Xpoint? I will believe it when I can buy them.

We need something new, TLC has been as pushed as far as it can go?
It would not surprise me if some SD cards have TLC but say they are SLC.
Hence destroyed SD'S? 100 cycles for 15nm TLC ouch.

I try not to use more than 16GB, most of mine are 8GB or less, Pi3 run 32GB USB which have better wear leveling?
The Pi3's are not 24/7, more desktops not embedded gadgets.
Anything larger and it is external USB HD.
actually, flash being slc mlc or tlc (or even qlc nowadays) is just a matter of interpreting the data, stored in the cell. You can make tlc work as a mlc or slc (most ssds actually do this for a portion of the flash do boost write speeds) but not the other way around (since flash thats slc as default doesnt feature ecc and dsp advanced enough to differentiate more than 2 different voltage states reliably).
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:22 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:31 am
hojnikb wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:57 pm
Thats really a non issue, since most if not all device priorities sd boot over nand boot. So even with a dead eMMC you can always boot from sd card and use the board.
*cough* CM/CM3 *cough* (Not actually SBCs, but...)
thats just bad design though.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:26 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:35 am
hojnikb wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pm
TLC at 1k cycles is nowadays only capable of such endurance using LDPC or some other form of smart ecc and dsp. With bch, you'd be lucky to get a few 100s cycles out of your run of the mill 15nm flash
3D is a different story, much better endurance due to much bigger cell sizes.
Given the claims for it, it's going to be interesting to see if XPoint comes far enough down in price and up in density to be a viable storage medium for uSD cards. It *could* be a real game changer...
Doubtful. I'd bet we'll see a completely different tech before xpoint evolves into something like that. Besides, flash has still got some life left in it. 3D made a big difference.
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:13 am

hojnikb wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:22 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:31 am
hojnikb wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:57 pm
Thats really a non issue, since most if not all device priorities sd boot over nand boot. So even with a dead eMMC you can always boot from sd card and use the board.
*cough* CM/CM3 *cough* (Not actually SBCs, but...)
thats just bad design though.
On whose part? However, the point stands. While the CM/CM3 are SOMs rather than SBCs, the difference isn't that great and the CM/CM3 cannot, at least without a lot of complex work, have an SD interface in addition to eMMC. To be fair, the CM3 could be set up so that if the eMMC failed to boot, it could boot through the USB port, just like a Pi2Bv1.2 or Pi3B. And then there is the CM3L where the EmmC--or SD connector--goes on the carrier board.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:55 am

hojnikb wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:26 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:35 am
hojnikb wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pm
TLC at 1k cycles is nowadays only capable of such endurance using LDPC or some other form of smart ecc and dsp. With bch, you'd be lucky to get a few 100s cycles out of your run of the mill 15nm flash
3D is a different story, much better endurance due to much bigger cell sizes.
Given the claims for it, it's going to be interesting to see if XPoint comes far enough down in price and up in density to be a viable storage medium for uSD cards. It *could* be a real game changer...
Doubtful. I'd bet we'll see a completely different tech before xpoint evolves into something like that. Besides, flash has still got some life left in it. 3D made a big difference.
It may or may not become a major player, but I think that if it does. it will be as an internal component, not media in it's own right. One doesn't really *care* what is inside an SD card, USB stick/thumb drive.or SSD. What one is interested in is speed, capacity and durability. If the internal chip tech changes, who cares? So long as at least one of those three factors improves, all is good.

Getting back the the actual issue at hand... What we really care about here is durability in the sense of "how many times can I write to this device before it degrades and/or outright fails"? If a new tech comes along that is reasonably price competitive and provides a major boost in durability with the same form factor device, the same (or greater) capacity, the same interface, and the same (or better) transfer speed, then I think *this* (SBC mass storage) world witl beat path to its door.

For now, we have quite thoroughly beaten the question posed in the thread title to death. The answer is "Never, because it's not actually their problem."

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:49 am

Another 2,500+ data points to help put this "suggested" issue at rest. My application is now running in 2,500+ devices worldwide (most are left running 24/7).. the cases where SD cards have become corrupt is VERY VERY low. I have some customers who are still running the same SD card from April 2014. The application includes a live video streaming component. So.. lots of writes to the SD cards. Most are Sandisk 8GB class 4 SD cards.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:50 am

liamkennedy wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:49 am
Another 2,500+ data points to help put this "suggested" issue at rest. My application is now running in 2,500+ devices worldwide (most are left running 24/7).. the cases where SD cards have become corrupt is VERY VERY low. I have some customers who are still running the same SD card from April 2014. The application includes a live video streaming component. So.. lots of writes to the SD cards. Most are Sandisk 8GB class 4 SD cards.
Impressive! Thanks very much for the data point(s)!
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:28 am

I have been using my pi as a server since April of 2014 (changed models twice)
Model B
Model B+
Model 3B+
i think i changed my card 3 times (upgrades)
i have only had 1 card fail on me out of every pi have have setup (* G. Skill warranty service is awesome)
you should be aware that most sd cards use low grade nand, high grand ends up in ram and ssds
a sd card is like a ssd it has a WRITE LIMIT
i have had my card corrupt before cause of a low grade PSU (2A was < 0.5A), but i have only had one card actually fail by which i mean it could not be formatted and written to removed and read again
that was my oldest card, i am sure the finishing blow was running a ssh server publicly on port 22 delt a lot of damage from the crazy number of log entries from failed login attempts, that went on for about a month or so
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:31 pm

liamkennedy wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:49 am
Another 2,500+ data points to help put this "suggested" issue at rest. My application is now running in 2,500+ devices worldwide (most are left running 24/7).. the cases where SD cards have become corrupt is VERY VERY low.
I wonder if this is the Pi's problem. With 19 million Pi's sold, even at a very low rate of corruption, the numbers are significant. And most of those are user error IMHO.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:49 pm

I have not read all comments and assume it is already mentioned. Is there swapfile on the broken SD card(s)?

It will be good to analyze the problem with SMART-capable SD card like this.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:52 pm

liamkennedy,
Another 2,500+ data points to help put this "suggested" issue at rest.
I would not say it is a "suggested" issue. It's real enough.

It's happened to me that new cards without much use have become read only in whole or in in part. I spent some time playing with this with a few cards using dd from a PC and could find exactly the logical blocks that were no longer writable.

Yes we can say the SD cards were "fake" or the power supply was not good etc, but it happens to people.

That's before we talk about OS corruption due to cutting power at the wrong moment.

I do think it's overblown though. And there are ways of working with it, namely setting up a read on root fs on the SD card if you really want a bullet proof setup. So I'm happy.

You have interesting data points there but that does not put anything to rest. Looks like you have been lucky.

I guess my point is that I expect SD cards to be about as reliable as 3.5 inch floppy disks. That is not say hardly reliable at all !

It's not the Pi's fault.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:34 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:52 pm
liamkennedy,
Another 2,500+ data points to help put this "suggested" issue at rest.
I would not say it is a "suggested" issue. It's real enough.

It's happened to me that new cards without much use have become read only in whole or in in part. I spent some time playing with this with a few cards using dd from a PC and could find exactly the logical blocks that were no longer writable.

Yes we can say the SD cards were "fake" or the power supply was not good etc, but it happens to people.

That's before we talk about OS corruption due to cutting power at the wrong moment.

I do think it's overblown though. And there are ways of working with it, namely setting up a read on root fs on the SD card if you really want a bullet proof setup. So I'm happy.

You have interesting data points there but that does not put anything to rest. Looks like you have been lucky.

I guess my point is that I expect SD cards to be about as reliable as 3.5 inch floppy disks. That is not say hardly reliable at all !

It's not the Pi's fault.
2500 devices, very few corruptions. How is that 'lucky', or should we all be asking Liam for next weeks lottery numbers?

Yes, very infrequently, an SD card dies. Not caused by a HW failure on the part of the Pi, but simply because sometimes stuff just dies, though bad use, or just maybe it was destiny.

It really is as simple as that.
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MaxK1
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:34 pm

Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:57 pm

"2500 devices, very few corruptions. How is that 'lucky', or should we all be asking Liam for next weeks lottery numbers?

Couldn't hurt.... :-)

I think we have covered the same ground over and over several times in this thread alone.

So far we know:

SD cards sometimes are fake
Not all users believe in properly supplying power
Not all users believe in properly shutting down
All the fruity-themed SBC's out there have reported the same thing
Some boards have been mis-handled
Some SD cards have been "mis-treated"

Have I missed anything?
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