W. H. Heydt
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:30 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:19 am
2. It's not a quality issue of the SD card

Cheap cards will corrupt after a few days. High Quality cards will corrupt after a few weeks. You cannot leave a Rapberry Pi on for a month 24h/24h without corruption. Using high quality cards only delays the inevitable. I've used Sandisk, Duracell, and other well-known manufacturers sd-cards, they all fail in after a few weeks of 24/7 use.

Code: Select all

pi@alrmclk2 ~ $ uptime
 09:26:37 up 50 days, 18:49,  3 users,  load average: 0.18, 0.20, 0.19
It would be much longer, but I rebooted as part of upgrading to Stretch in situ. That particular cad has been running in that Pi (it's a Pi2Bv1.1) for a couple of years without problems.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:56 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 pm
Okay, I had a few moments to relax, and allow me to apologize first. I was quite pissed off, as an important component of my home automation system broke down (it was on the corrupted sd-card that was in my Pi 3).
General advice (which, I will agree is hard to do, but...): Never post when you're angry. Never go to bed angry.
For those running 24/7 Pi's, can you tell me which manufacturer and models you are using?
I'd have to shut various Pis down and get into cases and the like (one 24/7 Pi is mounted to a 7" display and getting the card out is...awkward; another is in a case that takes a screwdriver to open and includes an SD slot cover). Mostly I use SanDisk 8GB or 16GB. Most of them are Class 4 (it's fast enough for my needs).
Sorry, my frustration got the upper hand here... :oops:
Understandable, but initial rants tend to upset people who have the data and experience to point out where you have erred.

Another couple of points to consider... A Pi2Bv1.2 can be set up to boot the same way a Pi3B can (same SoC). Any Pi can be set up with the SD card holding only the /boot partition with the root partition on a USB device. The /boot partition is almost never written to, and then only when done by a human--or, very rarely, during a system upgrade, so very few writes and those done while someone is paying attention.

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Burngate
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:59 pm

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 pm
Okay, I had a few moments to relax, and allow me to apologize first. I was quite pissed off, ... Sorry, my frustration got the upper hand here... :oops:
Would it be worth while changing the title of this thread ... maybe to something like ... "My Pi has destroyed umpteen SD cards, and I'd like to know what's happening!"
It keeps the same element of frustration, without the slur on the Foundation name.

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hojnikb
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:45 am

If you have trouble with SD cards, you can always switch to a different board. There are plenty of raspberry like boards out there that don't have issues with sd cards (some even come with eMMC!). Better switch over than being stubborn with a single board. :D :D :D
+°´°+,¸¸,+°´°~ Everyone should have a taste of UK Raspberry Pie =D ~°´°+,¸¸,+°´°+
Rasberry Pi, SoC @ 1225Mhz :o, 256MB Ram @ 550Mhz, 16GB SD-Card, Raspbian

Heater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am

hojnikb,
There are plenty of raspberry like boards out there that don't have issues with sd cards
Really?

Can you name one? Can you link to any evidence that is has no such issues?

No, don't do that. This is the wrong place. Let's just say I find it hard to believe. You could PM any such evidence if you have any.
some even come with eMMC!
That is great and all. But comes with other problems. Still does not fix the fundamental issue of the limited write lifetime of FLASH memory.
Better switch over than being stubborn with a single board.
I'm all for using the right solution for a particular job. However there are many ways to work around the fragility of SD cards on the Pi[*]. Using a read-only route for example. I'd suggest looking into those before switching to a Pi like board and giving up the amazing advantages the Pi offers.

[*] Not that I believe the SD card is any more fragile in the Pi than similar uses in similar boards or elsewhere.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

MaxK1
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:07 am

I have a Tinkerboard and a Beagle Bone Black (as well as about 14 Pi's) If you look at the other boards forums yo u will find there are also complaints about SD card "corruption" on those as well. There are fewer reports because they haven't sold anywhere near 18 Million boards. And each report seems to leave at least one unanswered question...
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:09 pm

MaxK1 wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:07 am
I have a Tinkerboard and a Beagle Bone Black (as well as about 14 Pi's) If you look at the other boards forums yo u will find there are also complaints about SD card "corruption" on those as well. There are fewer reports because they haven't sold anywhere near 18 Million boards. And each report seems to leave at least one unanswered question...
Exactly, it's not a problem with the hardware, but of the flash storage media itself having a limited write cycle life. This doesn't change, whatever board you are using.

So, really the solution is not to use SD cards as the main storage. But right now they are the best option., giving a combination of cheapness and convenience that cannot be matched by any other storage.
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pcmanbob
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:48 pm

So your blaming Pi for SD card failures well explain this then.

Brand new SD card never been near any device including a pi.

Inserted in to adaptor and put in usual pc cared reader, any attempt to flash image on to card fails, windows unable to create folder or files or format reports read only, so thinking bad SD card out of the packet.

But never one to give up easily, put in to my camera and formatted ok ! take several pictures ok, put SD card back in to pc finds pictures ok ! can even delete pictures on pc !

just going to try flashing card with raspbian image now.

Edit.

flash successful boot raspbian jessie lite ( only used as it was smallest image I had so quick to flash.) boots fine and SD card report correct size
so it just goes to show anything can happen, which results in card being read only including taking it out of the packet. :D
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Paul Hutch
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:01 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am
hojnikb,
There are plenty of raspberry like boards out there that don't have issues with sd cards
Really?

Can you name one? Can you link to any evidence that is has no such issues?

No, don't do that. This is the wrong place. Let's just say I find it hard to believe. You could PM any such evidence if you have any.
some even come with eMMC!
That is great and all. But comes with other problems. Still does not fix the fundamental issue of the limited write lifetime of FLASH memory.
It is true that the raw NAND Flash ICs in all devices are similar there is one major difference. eMMC, like SSD, has a sophisticated built-in wear leveling controller specifically designed to give longer life from the same NAND flash vs. the simpler controller in uSD, SD, MMC, or CF cards. Of course the trade off is that when the uSD card wears out any user can replace it while most users can not replace a dead eMMC module easily.

jahboater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:34 pm

Paul Hutch wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:01 pm
Of course the trade off is that when the uSD card wears out any user can replace it while most users can not replace a dead eMMC module easily.
Yes, I would never buy an SBC with on-board storage for that reason.

The Odroid C2 by the way, uses removable eMMC cards as well as uSD cards (you can boot off either) which gives you the best of both worlds. eMMC cards are also faster than uSD cards but much more expensive.

ejolson
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:47 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:26 pm
Samsung EVO and particularly the EVO+, though there is now a newer EVO Plus and I've not tried them.
My understanding from reading the reports of others is that EVO Plus is a completely different design than EVO+ and in particular much less suited for use in the Pi. A phenomena known as write amplification can happen with flash media. Since the block size for a flash-memory erase operation can be 64 times larger than the write size, a single write operation may translate into 64 times more data written internally by the SD card than requested by the filesystem. Caching, fstrim and turning off the journal can reduce this. A better solution might be to use a filesystem designed for flash memory devices; however, there are no robust well-tested options at present.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:25 pm

Paul Hutch,
It is true that the raw NAND Flash ICs in all devices are similar there is one major difference. eMMC, like SSD, has a sophisticated built-in wear leveling controller specifically designed to give longer life from the same NAND flash vs. the simpler controller in uSD, SD, MMC, or CF cards.
I have heard this kind of statement many times.

I don't doubt that the underlying FLASH technology, the block layouts, the capabilities of the wear leveling controllers, etc is very different from SSD to eMMC to SSD, and even within those categories. And no doubt it all changes every year as well.

Problem is we know nothing about how any of that works. We don't get to see the code. We don't get to even see the algorithms. We only get the marketing blurb about "more sophisticated" this and that.

Unless you have some concrete documentation to show us these kind of statements are all just hand waving.

All we have to go on is marketing specs. and ultimately the experience in use.

We might also take the hint from the fact that SD card manufacturers specifically will not warranty their devices for use as boot media. The message is clear, "do not rely on our product to keep your machine running".
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

wh7qq
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:04 pm

Another satisfied user of RPi 24/7. Had a B+ running my solar water heater for years and no cold showers despite our crappy power system that fails at least once per month with who-knows-how-many spikes and other crap on the lines. I felt compelled to drop a kilobuck on a Honda inverter generator to keep the fridge cold during the outages which last up to 8 hours. When I shut down manually, I am careful about procedure but I can't control the power company and its screw-ups. I recently replaced the B+ with a zero only because the smaller form factor fit my enclosure (the repurposed Intermatic Grey Box that used to control the system) and it now runs 24/7 with no problems. The B+ still lives. Granted my system does little in its spare time so it isn't banging the uSD much. I also run this 3B as my primary desktop computer without a hitch and it is powered about 16 hours per day.

The OP may be making the mistake of blaming the RPi for borking SD cards when the SD cards themselves are the weakness. I see no evidence at all that implicates the RPi as the causative agent in these failures other than guilt by association.

[Mod edit - removed some unnecessary sniping.]

W. H. Heydt
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:05 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:25 pm
Problem is we know nothing about how any of that works. We don't get to see the code. We don't get to even see the algorithms. We only get the marketing blurb about "more sophisticated" this and that.
One can get part way there... I read a fair number of technical reviews of SSDs and they do discuss what model of which controller is used. Occasionally they discuss the merits of various controllers against each other, usually by manufacturer.

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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:53 pm

@wh7qq,

Perhaps. We can swap anecdotes forever, as you so aptly demonstrate, and never arrive at a conclusion.

@W. H. Heydt

Do you have any links to SD card data sheets or other concrete information?


[Mod edit - removed some quoted sniping]
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

W. H. Heydt
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:58 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:53 pm
@W. H. Heydt

Do you have any links to SD card data sheets or other concrete information?
No, I don't. What I posted is the experince of reading product reviews of SSDs in _MaximumPC_. Their web site almost certainly has at least some of those reviews. (MaxPC is one of two magazines I subscribe to, going back to when it was rather edgy and called _Boot_. The other is Scientific American.)

Paul Hutch
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:36 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:25 pm
Paul Hutch,
It is true that the raw NAND Flash ICs in all devices are similar there is one major difference. eMMC, like SSD, has a sophisticated built-in wear leveling controller specifically designed to give longer life from the same NAND flash vs. the simpler controller in uSD, SD, MMC, or CF cards.
I have heard this kind of statement many times.

I don't doubt that the underlying FLASH technology, the block layouts, the capabilities of the wear leveling controllers, etc is very different from SSD to eMMC to SSD, and even within those categories. And no doubt it all changes every year as well.

Problem is we know nothing about how any of that works. We don't get to see the code. We don't get to even see the algorithms. We only get the marketing blurb about "more sophisticated" this and that.

Unless you have some concrete documentation to show us these kind of statements are all just hand waving.
See this page from the NAND flash manufacturer Micron.
https://www.micron.com/products/nand-fl ... right-nand

I've only ever designed with raw NAND so other than manufactures information on managed NAND I have no detailed knowledge.

mwrich4
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:16 am

sithlord2 wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:45 am
To those who claim to run 24/7 without issues: I'm pretty sure your use-cases are not really write-heavy, am I right?
Write-heavy implementations using an SSD or even a microSD, both based on flash are going to wear out the chip. 10,000 write-erase cycles can go by very quickly in a poorly implemented design.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:18 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory
SLC - Single Layer cell -100,000 cycles
TLC - 1000 cycles.
https://www.cactus-tech.com/resources/b ... al-systems
Buy cheap memory get cheap memory?

Guess I know which cards I would rely on more.
What is the biggest SLC card?
It would also depend on what cell size it was made in

Boot from SD, keep the rest on wear leveling USB/SSD?
Or better yet magnetic rotating disc?

Got quite few Pi's running 24/7, just checked some, they send me daily emails, 211 and 76 days uptime.
Probably since last time building power was played with, two different buildings.
I do not run Raspbian, I run PiCore, buffer the data to ram and write to a different partition once per day.
These units have been running for years, 8GB cards.

Are there any big FRAMs(or similar NV) that could be used as buffer storage yet?
Carbon based NRAM?
http://nantero.com/
Maybe Pi5 or 6 will just have one 32GB NRAM on it, plus microSD socket for 1TB NRAM.
Maybe even on chip?
Only tested to 1Tillion cycles :o
Could be an interesting year 2018
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Pithagoros
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 am

I know that one-off anecdotes are not particularly useful, but in my case I have dozens of Pis and used for many different applications including my weather satellite receiver which is write-heavy and at the top of a mast where it's a major job to get to it. I've never had an SD card fail in a Pi, but because of this forum I live in constant fear of it ;)

I've have a few cheap SD cards that have been rubbish straight out of the packet though.

In the manual for my car dash-cam, which is constantly writing video to the SD cards the manual recommends that the card is replaced after a nominal number of hours of use. This is how SD cards work - they are a consumable item and not expected to last, and it can be improved by using larger capacity cards that have more scope to do levelling, and by choosing a longer life card like Transcend Endurance. The dash cam manual also says that formatting the card every 1-3 weeks depending on how much driving you do, will help to extend the life of the card.
There are some suggestions that Sandisk Ultras are not so reliable.

Bear in mind that there are plenty of convincingly packaged fake SD cards being sold.

Consider configuring OS to use a RAM drive for write-intensive work.

jahboater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:48 am

Pithagoros wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 am
Consider configuring OS to use a RAM drive for write-intensive work.
/etc/fstab on all my Raspberry Pi's look similar this:

Code: Select all

proc            /proc           proc    defaults          0       0
PARTUUID=9a7e1f59-01  /boot           vfat    defaults          0       2
PARTUUID=9a7e1f59-02  /               ext4    defaults,noatime,commit=600  0       1
tmpfs /tmp tmpfs defaults,noatime,nosuid 0 0
tmpfs /var/log tmpfs defaults,noatime,nosuid,size=64m 0 0
The maximum size for /tmp will be 1/2 memory. Tmpfs is good in that it is virtual memory and only uses just enough ram to hold the files.

Heater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:52 am

One-off anecdotes are wonderful. Here is mine:

A Pi 2 and a Camera set up to take snap shots and serve them up over HTTP.

Worked fine for half a year or so then failed. I took it down for investigation and powered it up on the bench. It failed to boot. After some seconds smoke was coming out.

Tuned out the SD had failed catastrophically and getting hot enough to cause a fire had there been anything flammable around.

Amazingly that Pi worked fine when the SD was replaced.

Conclusion: SD's are not only unreliable than can be dangerous.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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bstrobl
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:31 am

SanDisk recently provides industrial micro sd cards, but they are meant for OEMs. 192TB writes though.

Samsungs pro plus series uses MLC if I remember correctly and are designed for heavy writes.

Heater
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:42 am

Looks like you can buy SanDisk Industrial SD :

https://www.avnet.com/wps/portal/silica ... osd-cards/
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Paul Hutch
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Re: When will Raspberry Foundation admit that the Pi destroys your SD cards?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:05 pm

bstrobl wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:31 am
SanDisk recently provides industrial micro sd cards, but they are meant for OEMs. 192TB writes though.

Samsungs pro plus series uses MLC if I remember correctly and are designed for heavy writes.
You can buy those from Mouser at good prices.
SDSDAF3-008G-I https://www.mouser.com/productdetail/sa ... ijkg%3D%3D
Sold in quantities as low as one piece.

SDSDAF3-008G-XI https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Sa ... kUYr6Jc%3D
Minimum quantity is 100 pieces :-(

They are 3K P/E Cycle, top of the P/E range for high capacity MLC cards. Another very nice spec on those is the operating temperature range, most uSD card are only rated for 0°C to 70°C the consumer electronics range. These are available as -25°C to 85°C for the I grade and -40 to 85°C for the XI grade.

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