ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

raspberry pi problems in industries

Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:57 pm

hello
i am using raspberry pi for industrial application ,i got a problem ,when some where things get on/off like motor ,contactor etc, here waveshare 7" display gets flicker ,2 raspberry pi boards has dead with in 10 days ,i use ups line for raspberry pi and raw power for switch loads ,i use 8/16/32 bit micro controller from many years no problems till date, for this project i use 24 volt 2 amps , 5 volt 2.5 amps smps .to switch loads on /off i use ssr ,not relays . i need to use raspberry pi for industrial for my applications please need help.

Heater
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:20 pm

ravip,

Firstly you have to accept that the Raspberry Pi is not specified for use in industrial applications. It is a consumer device. It does not come with the usual detailed specifications, and guarantees, for temperature range, shock/vibration resistance, etc, etc. that one expects of industrial strength devices.

Having said that the Pi can of course be used in industrial applications. It is a high quality product. But it is down to you to ensure that it survives any demanding requirements of your application. Or is protected from them.

You are describing a very electrically noisy environment, what with the motors and contactors around the place. This creates problems for all kind of electronics and controllers. Even if they are industrial strength devices.

It's down to you to isolate your Pi from such noisy power supply and other sources of interference.

My limited experience of using Pi in noisy industrial environments leads me to a few major conclusions:

1) Make sure your PSU is clean and solid. My approach to that is to use industrial DIN rail mounted 5v supplies that can deliver way more current than the Pi needs and are a little bit adjustable. Typically I need to see 5.2 to 5.25 volts coming out of the PSU to be sure that the Pi end of the USB cable does not dip dangerously low. Be sure to use good quality power cables.

2) Make the root file system on the SD card read only. That minimizes the chance that the SD will become corrupted and un-bootable when the inevitable power interruptions happen.

3) Set up the Pi hardware watchdog. Just in case things do crash out for whatever reason. This is a bit of a last resort thing.

4) Be sure anything connected to the Pi, via GPIO etc, is "safe". No noise or over voltages there.


You mention that you have issues like a display flickering when motors and such are turned on and off. This is a strong clue that your Pi power supply arrangements are not very good.

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:56 am

hello
thanks for your reply

dear sir
i though 7" waveshare display may giving problem due to its interfaced with hdmi cable about 7 inch.so recently i purchase 7" official raspberry display form amazon ,it is very good in quality , we connect raspberry pi i2c to mcp23017 to uln 2803 to 24 volt relay board making relay on/off for every 500 miliseconds and for relay we connect 230 volt ac contactor with this setup display working super with out display flicker or display patches , and with the same setup i used waveshare display but this gets flicker and display patches when relay contactor gets on/off . i think official raspberry display is ok to with stand in industrial noise .i will take this to field and check .i am using meanwell smps 24volt ,3 amps , 5 volt 3 amps for raspberry pi .i am using shielded cable for power up raspberry pi and volt set for 5.20 volt.
please suggest which type of smps can we use for industrial .already i used more then 25 raspberry pi about from last 10 months in different type of application ,i may need more nos both raspberry pi with official 7" display for my applications if it is working with problems .please i need your help .

regards
ravi.p
bangalore
india

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:52 am

hello
my circuit connected like this

ups line 230 ac input , 24 volt 3 amps ,5 volt smps 3 amps output both the volts are from 1 same smps .
(raw power line)
5 volt --to---> (raspberry pi with 7" display) --uln2803---> ( 24 volt relay board)--- raw power ac------ >(ssr raw power to on/off contactor )
from contactors --> motor ,heaters,soliniods , loads are opeated


pi is powered with ups line smps (meanwell) smps not from raw power line, load are connected to raw power line .to operated the load we first operate the 24 volt dc relay connected from ups line smps ,from there we use ssr is operated raw power loads. to isolate emi ,spike,esd etc.

beta-tester
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Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:15 pm

is the case shielded against electrical and magnetical fields?
is the interface galvanic isolated (optocoupler)

do you have equipment to see and measure what is going on when the motors turn on and off.
you assume, that there are no spikes on power line and data/signal lines, but did you measured (oscilloscope)
{ I only give negative feedback }
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ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:45 pm

hai
for inputs i am using optocouplers pc817 for output we are using 24 volt relays that operated with ups line smps ,not from raw power line for isolation purpose.raw power loads are operated through ssr , 24 volts relays to ssr to ac load and pi and 7" wave share display shield with in metal case ,right now i will remove pi with waveshare display and going to use 7" official raspberry pi display with new raspberry pi with 3 d case.i am giving 20 cm space around raspberry pi case so no cables near case. i will check this in field then i will inform how its working .please suggest any good smps for pi right now i am using meanwell 5 volt 3 amps combined with 24 volt dc.if i need to us 5 volt smps 3 amps separately with out 24 volt i can but i cannot control 24 volt relay again i need to add 24 volt smps separately.


regards
ravi

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:03 pm

hello
why i need to make read only sd card root files, till now sd card is not corrupted working good from past 15 days only 1 pi got failed and waveshare display is working ok ,sd card was ok.the same sd card is moved to new pi its working ok now.with in 3 days i will replace all ,i will fix new raspberry pi with 7" official display with 3d case.i will observe how its works if every thing is OK from next time i will plane to use as both for my applications (pi with 7" official display).

regards
ravi

Heater
Posts: 13306
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:09 pm

I would suggest getting the 24v and 5v from separate power supplies.

I have used these in some recent projects: https://www.trcelectronics.com/View/Tra ... -105.shtml

They seem to be available from many suppliers.

I like that I can adjust the output up a bit to be sure I get 5v and the Pi end of the USB cable.

Be sure you have proper grounding for everything.

Be sure you are not pulling large currents through the ground that the Pi is attached to.

Heater
Posts: 13306
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:15 pm

In an industrial setting it is likely the power to your Pi gets switched off at any time.

Just slamming the power introduces the risk of file system or SD card corruption. Then your Pi won't boot and your industrial system fails. Probably when you are not around and everyone gets annoyed. Lost production is expensive.

To be sure, mount your root file system as read-only. If you need to store any data put it on a USB stick or better still send it over the network to some server somewhere.

These are just common sense precautions that you can do now or will wish you had later.

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:14 am

hello

thanks for our kind reply

ok i go it what you saying ,i will remove the smps which is combined 24v/5 volt in1 smps is connected to ups line , i will use separate 5 volt smps din rail from meanwell(i will connect this to ups line so not power loss power will be
present 24/7) , to on/off 24 volt dc relay, i will use another smps which will connect to raw power line ,now i need connect both the negative as common because i am using mcp23107 to this ic is from as pi 5 volt power supply to read inputs /out puts to on/off relays,from this relay i am switching 230 volt ac raw power to ssr to on/off loads .is this correct .

(inputs 24 volt optocoupler used)
ups line 230 volt-------------->(5volt smps)----->(pi and 7" display)-----(i2c port)---------->(mcp23107 card)------------------->(uln2803)--->relays drive
5v (-) common
24v (-) common (inputs card)
raw power line 230 volt -->(24 volt smps)------------>(relay card )------> ac loads

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:34 am

hai


in some case if there is no ups i will use raw power to both the smps ,so power may off any time i will use read only for root file system
i am using qt software in pc and deployed to pi ,so every time pi reboots setting values ,parameters are reload from sd card itself, if we do read only so how to save to data and read back from sd card.


regards
ravi

Heater
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Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:17 am

Obviously if you have a read only file system you cannot write an config/setup data to it.

What to do:

1) Store the settings/config on something else. A little USB stick perhaps.

2) Store the settings/config on some server on the network.

3) When one wants to change settings/config boot the machine temporarily with a writeable root file system. Change the settings. When all is good set it back to read only, shut down properly and reboot.

4) Create a small separate partition on the SD card that is writeable for the settings/config. This will protect against file system corruption of the root partition. But there is still occasionally write activity to the card, when settings are changed, so the possibility of lower level SD card failure is still there.

5) Something else I have not thought of.

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:19 am

hello
right now i am not having any issues with sd card for safer side i will make to read only ,as you said,but how protect pi from industrial noise,spike etc , i will use 5 volt 3 amps din rail meanwell smps for pi and 7" display ,then another smsp 24 volt for relay card
from pi i2c port with mcp23017 has been used to read inputs and relay outputs, so both the negative should be common to communicate . this is logic i am using from past many years for microcontroller ,the same has to be used for raspberry pi now , from element 14 we purchase as a set 7" official display,pi,case .so assembling all and fix it into ready made case "Raspberry Pi Barebone Touchscreen Display Case" ,is required any shield for this case ,this is made up of plastic not metal.how to avoid emi ,esd, spike so it don't affect pi .please give any suggestion.


regards
ravi

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Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:21 pm

do you really know, that the cause is emi, noise, spikes and on which line it is reaching the RPi?
i mean trying to protect the RPi against every kind of possible emi, noise, spikes, etc, can be very expensive and possibly needless or useless.
when you know from where and over which way those stuff is coming to the RPi you can make protection more effective.
maybe it is also good to "quiet"/"shut up" the source of the noise and spikes. when no noise and spikes are leaving a device into your environment (or even reducing noise and spikes will help alot) makes emi protection way more easier.
filter on the source device. sometimes rotten connection, cables, elkos, etc. on devices will cause noise/spikes to leave/escape the device.

or use industrial proofed computers and don't use an RPi, if your environment is that complicated.
{ I only give negative feedback }
RPi Model B (rev1, 256MB) & B (rev2, 512MB) & B+, RPi2B, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPiZeroW, ...

Heater
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:53 pm

It's impossible to advise.

We don't know the details of your source of interference.

We don't know how it is getting into your Pi and whatever circuitry.

You have received some good hints and suggestions along the way in this thread.

These things can be difficult for even experienced engineers to track down. I have seen countless hours spent on finding and fixing such problems over the years. Many of them my countless hours!

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:00 pm

hello
i normally use micro controller 8/16/32 bit for industrial application with out touch screen /lan/storage etc ,right now myself and my customer is satisfied with raspberry pi with 7 " display with many options .as i spent 2 months for learn programming (qt, with c++ ) and in the period of 6 months we use pi for many applications working good ,i am in this field from 12 years i had used many types of ic for industrial applications ,some ic's works good ,some will not with stand in field .i will use pi and official raspberry display with safety protections to work in industrial. already i made new pcb design for mcp23017 inputs/outputs 24 volt dc , i am isolating the pi using 5 volt smps separately .only i2c port used to speak between this 2 boards ,i hope this will work with out any problems.

regards
ravi.p

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:03 pm

thanks for sharing time with me, please share if you got any ideas about pi to use in appliacations...... :D

fruitoftheloom
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Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:30 pm

ravip wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:03 pm
thanks for sharing time with me, please share if you got any ideas about pi to use in appliacations...... :D

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=163420#p1250926
Retired disgracefully.....


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Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:19 am

it all depends on how tuff/rough/harsh the environment is, where the RPi is opperating in and the individual usecase.
a nice industrial looking case or a case made to mount on a "DIN rail" in a "control cabinet" does not change the specification of the RPi itself and does not make the RPi more robust against emi, noise, spikes or what else problens there are at your special environment.
{ I only give negative feedback }
RPi Model B (rev1, 256MB) & B (rev2, 512MB) & B+, RPi2B, RPi3B, RPi3B+, RPiZeroW, ...

ravip
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

Re: raspberry pi problems in industries

Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:55 am

hello
my applications are working super with out any problem in field ,i made new pcb for inputs/outputs /analogue and dac /rtc 24volts used (inputs/ouputs) bug converter for 5 volt power up mcp23017 and rtc and other ics ,and pi with 7" official display with ready made case mounted in panel(24 volt to 5 volt 2 amps converter used for power up pi & display) , and for i2c communication between 2 boards is used 2 p82b715p ic with cat5 cable with rj45 connectors so to avoid emi, as i expected my applications are working correctly with any flicker or malfunctions, . so we should use only official raspberry pi 7" display only with good power supply /filters ferrite core etc.this was my experience with pi to use in industrial .

thanks for suggestion

success never come so easy , in my 12 years experience i had learn a lot, when doing electronics applications in industries, from 8 bit micro controller to 32 bit i had used some gives problem after giving solutions the problems stops, till date working correctly with out issues.this is another pi experience to me .

regards
ravi

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