roelfrenkema
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:34 pm

FGS why dont you guys just buy a multimedia machine instead of a cli toy on steroids.

hippy
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:38 pm

Abishur said:


hippy said:


Abishur said:


Additionally it will be able to run flash.


That seems contradictory to what the foundation has been saying up tol a few days ago, for example in the Codecs posting - "Will be possible to have Flash on browsers?", "No. Lots of discussion about this in the forums – pile in!"


Not at all, in listing what codecs they had activated on the r-pi they had not activated the Flash one (because of how insanely adobe prices its content), meaning it will not have hardware acceleration but there is no reason why it would not be able to do software acceleration (though as KME pointed out when it comes to heavy media content it will be pretty bad).


Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was "No Flash" period, needed a licence from Adobe for any Flash not just for accelerated GPU usage, so good to hear it will support Flash if only for lightweight stuff.

WereCatf
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:53 pm

roelfrenkema said:


FGS why dont you guys just buy a multimedia machine instead of a cli toy on steroids.



Easier said than done, atleast if you want something as cheap and customizable as RPi. My mobilephone would actually make for a great CLI-machine, it's got similar hardware as RPi and all, and it packs integrated battery and 32GB storage + SDHC. Unfortunately it lacks HDMI and everything and thus it doesn't make for a good multimedia device. Not to mention that I still use it as a phone

dom
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:01 pm

WereCatf said:


lb said:


A serious problem is the lack of an X.org DDX driver for the Pi.


Is it really true that there is no XRender et. al. acceleration available?



No acceleration yet.

The arm does have access to very capable 2D DMA engine (from the GPU), that can do very efficient blits and fills. We did try adding acceleration to the framebuffer driver, but that has no effect on X (or anything of interest that I could find).

We can provide that code as a starting point if someone is interested in adding X acceleration.

It seems like it should also be possible to provide acceleration using openVG or openGLES, but I imagine that is a significant amount of work.

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abishur
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:02 pm

hippy said:


Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was "No Flash" period, needed a licence from Adobe for any Flash not just for accelerated GPU usage, so good to hear it will support Flash if only for lightweight stuff.



Man I'm going to be eating crow and humble pie for a month if I end up being wrong about that!  Still from what I remember about the conversations on the forum it was a licensing issue for GPU acceleration.
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

WereCatf
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:19 pm

dom said:

No acceleration yet.
Ah, that is terribly unfortunate Especially at 1080p resolution doing everything in software on a 700MHz ARM is going to be plenty slow and I'm sure there are many better things to use all that CPU time than simple 2D blitting and line-rendering.



The arm does have access to very capable 2D DMA engine (from the GPU), that can do very efficient blits and fills.


Blits and fills are usually the thing that eats the most resources, though XRender can actually accelerate many, many things more than just those. Using OpenVG for XRender acceleration sounds like a good idea as it accelerates more-or-less everything XRender does and even some extra. Alas, I do not have even nearly the skills needed to do that

Unfortunately that also means RPi is now unsuitable for any of my planned projects :'<

lb
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:29 am

dom, if the 2D engine is really quite capable, it should be easy to come up with a full-featured EXA driver that covers all basic hooks (Solid, Copy, Composite, UTS, DFS). That's enough to get speedy 2D, for the most part.

Can we have docs for this?

xavic
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:02 am

Abishur said:


lol, yeah good thing the main media content site (youtube) does HTML5 in addition to flash... I wonder if there's a setting I can do in my web browser to force youtube to use HTML5.


Click the "Join the HTML5 trial" at the end of this YouTube page

http://www.youtube.com/html5

So, now I wonder ... can videos be played on the Raspberry Pi when using YouTube's HTML5 player?

dom
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:14 am

dom, if the 2D engine is really quite capable, it should be easy to come up with a full-featured EXA driver that covers all basic hooks (Solid, Copy, Composite, UTS, DFS). That"s enough to get speedy 2D, for the most part.

Can we have docs for this?

You will get docs and example code. DMA won"t do masks and blends.
Is EXA supported by lxde?
I assume this all has to be done in an immediate mode? (i.e. the ARM must be able to directly read the current pixels from framebuffer at any time)? If that is not the case then there are more options for acceleration.

lb
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:37 pm

dom said:


You will get docs and example code. DMA won"t do masks and blends.
Is EXA supported by lxde?

I assume this all has to be done in an immediate mode? (i.e. the ARM must be able to directly read the current pixels from framebuffer at any time)? If that is not the case then there are more options for acceleration.


EXA is the standard X.org acceleration model, so it"s supported by anything that uses X11, e.g. any Linux desktop. A driver does not necessarily need immediate mode, although this makes it easy, by simply extending the framebuffer driver.

Unfortunately, blending is the operation that is both very common and benefits a lot from acceleration, so maybe the 2D DMA engine is not so great for what we need…

WereCatf
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:52 pm

^ As was suggested, using OpenVG would possibly be one way of doing all that. I have understood that OpenVG is not dependant on X and can even be used by console applications, so using that in X driver should not pose an issue. And a quick glance on OpenVG website does suggest that it can also do blending, alpha-transparency et. al., ie. should be more than enough for a full EXA-accelerated driver.

How easy it would be to implement such a driver, well, that I do not know. But I assume it would be one hell of an undertaking.

killfalcon
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:52 pm

I'll be honest, all I want from a web-browser is viewing forums and news sites. If I want to trawl youtube, then sure, maybe I'll fire up the god-machine... same as if I want to play a AAA game, I'll turn on one of the black multi-core monoliths that were custom made for gaming. If I want to play a flash game, I have a mobile phone that will do that and keep my hands warm at the same time.

Honestly, the class of nerd who wants a Pi isn't thinking "should I get a PC or a Pi", they're thinking "I'm getting a Pi, what can it do better than my existing stack of hardware?".

For some, the answer is "I shall dick around with registry settings and all that fun stuff I daren't risk on my $1000 PC". For some it is "I will write educational stuff that will inspire future programmers." For some it is "I will use it on the text-based internet, with all it's forums and news-sites, and cut my carbon footprint down a chunk."

I for one haven't a damn clue what I'm going to do with mine yet... but therein lies the fun.

dom
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Re: Can i use raspberry pi mainly for web browsing?

Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:25 pm

If it"s not immediate mode there"s a possibility of getting the GPU (or its hardware video scaler) to help. It"s very good for format conversion, alpha/masked blits, scaling etc.
But it"s pretty high latency. No point in sending blit 8x8 rectangle, read back a pixel, blit another 8x8 rectangle etc.
If you could build up a list of commands followed by a update operation, and there is one update per frame, then it may be feasible.
Also there is also currently an API the ARM can use to composite a number of rectangles with format conversion, scaling and alpha blending. I don"t know if that could be useful.

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