geek emeritus
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If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:29 pm

I have had my fill of buying laptops that fail after 6 months. I went Raspberry Pi and I live without portability.

I built up a well loaded Raspbian designed for use as a primary computer, surfing, Arduino IDE, no GPIO ( I don't want 5V Arduino modules and 3.3V RPi modules on the same workbench ). I got it working fine, and it locked up when the computer crashed due to a flaky USB connection that dropped out one time too often.

I am in the process of building a second OS, and I want to burn it to DVD so I can duplicate it in the future. What I want to do is pack it with every thing worth having, on the theory that it is easier to uninstall than it is to follow arcane instructions for compiling. This way only one person has to jump through all the hoops, all that follow can just install a copy of a highly functional Raspbian

I have installed
  • CH341 driver ( for cheap Arduino clones ) [ I had to try nonworking advice from 12 websites and discover sudo -i to get this to work ]
    CUPS ( printer interface )
    foo2zjs ( HP2600n driver, ) [ this had to be compiled from inexact instructions ]
    Kodi ( multimedia player )
    Zenmap ( network tool with a GUI for nmap )
    Arduino IDE 2:1.05 ( Arduino Integrated Development Environment )
    Audacity ( sound file editor and player )
    Synaptic ( GUI prgram files manager )
    unrar ( uncompresses RAR files, no GUI ) [ this had to be compiled from inexact instructions ]
What I need is a list of things other users would put into a high functionality practical OS, with so many packages you have to delete some to have room for data. GUI preferred, server packages that allow the RPi to function as a WiFi access point or NAS or NTP server are welcome.

It is ridiculous for all of us to reinvent the same wheel. I want to invent the Holy Grail of wheels, the One True Wheel that makes the RPi more like an appliance and less like a puzzle devised by a sadist.

If you have any suggestions for essential packages to include on a Pizza With Everything OS, please post a list in the

Package Name ( concise description ) [ installation note ] format used above

If the end product fills up a 16 GB SD card, we did it right. It is easier to purge than to compile.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:19 pm

The problem is that one person's "essential package" is another person's useless frill. In the end, all you can do is build the image to have everything *you* want and omit anything you don't. The following is a list of what I add to a standard Raspbian build (your mileage will certainly differ):
putty
units
mplayer
tuxpaint
tuxmath
gparted
fortune

I have, on some systems added one or more of...
mysql
gimp
RTC support (not so much an add as a modify)

I also routinely disable screen blanking/saving.

mlepage
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:32 pm

Probably the best thing everyone can do, is contribute well written guides on how to easily configure and install their software of choice, and keep them up to date.

Also, upstreaming changes and maintaining packages. Installing should be as simple as sudo apt-get install fancy-new-package. If not, that's an opportunity for improvement.

geek emeritus
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:32 pm

Probably the best thing everyone can do, is contribute well written guides on how to easily configure and install their software of choice, and keep them up to date.
this is entirely correct, and entirely hopeless. trying to corral all the necessary data into one spot would be like herding cats.

I find myself endlessly digging through a dozen posts or sites, combining a thing I encountered here with a thing I encountered there, taking three days to get the printer up and running the second time when I had already done it before. it takes a week to do things in Linux that can be done in seconds on a Windows system. I could not do this if I was not retired.

just today, I had to combine info from 2 web sites to get the audio to come out of the headphone jack. one site told how to vector the audio to the headset port, the other told how to set the volume.

ain't nobody got time for that...

Heater
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:07 am

geek emeritus,
It is ridiculous for all of us to reinvent the same wheel. I want to invent the Holy Grail of wheels, the One True Wheel that makes the RPi more like an appliance and less like a puzzle devised by a sadist.
No, with all respect, what you want to do is ridiculous. Here are some obvious reasons:

1) Security:

Nobody should be downloading programs (In a huge collection like yours or not) from random strangers on the net. Who knows what malware may be lurking in there? (Not that I'm suggesting your would deliberately do that).

2) Security (again):

Software has bugs. Bugs can be security issues when they are discovered by the bad guys. For this reason we like to keep up to date. Your "Holy Grail" would be frozen in time, security issues and all. I'm guessing you are not offering to keep it up to date every day.

3) It's impossible:

Everybody has a different selection of software that they want/need. You cannot cover it all in one huge down loadable image.

4) Practicality:

Who would want to download and install a terabyte disc image?

5) Wheels

We don't reinvent thee wheel all the time. Most of what we want is available from the wonderful debian package management system. That wheel has been working very well for decades now.
If you have any suggestions for essential packages to include on a Pizza With Everything OS, please post a list...
Here is a few. I don't have details. A lot of what I need is not available in regular raspbian packages:

Electron,
Visual Studio Code,
Node.js (Latest versions).
Yosys,
If the end product fills up a 16 GB SD card, we did it right. It is easier to purge than to compile.
That might only be the tip of the iceberg!
...it takes a week to do things in Linux that can be done in seconds on a Windows system.
And vice-versa. For example: It took most of working day to get our office printer to print from my Linux box. My Windows using colleague spent a whole working day trying to do it from Windows. He gave up!

It's far easier to do a lot of what I do with a computer on Linux than Windows.
...ain't nobody got time for that...
Might be time to consider handing in your geek creds and changing you user name. :)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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RaTTuS
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:22 am

this is what apt-get is for
if you have a need to build several then
just make a script that installs via apt-get all the stuff you use and how you configure it all
then just run that [keep it on git if you want]

if you configure a lot of systems then make a rsync copy of your working version and install from that,
don't push things onto others that they don't need ;)
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jahboater
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:38 am

Heater wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:07 am
...it takes a week to do things in Linux that can be done in seconds on a Windows system.
And vice-versa. For example: It took most of working day to get our office printer to print from my Linux box. My Windows using colleague spent a whole working day trying to do it from Windows. He gave up!

It's far easier to do a lot of what I do with a computer on Linux than Windows.
Yes yes!

My current printer was given to me. Other members of the family had failed to get it working on their Windows PC's or Macs. I plugged it into my old Linux box and it worked first time without installing any drivers or any configuration.

My last job was software development and problem solving on all three platforms, Windows, Mac, and Linux. When a Linux issue came along I breathed a sigh of relief because it would usually be simple and quick to deal with - no need to fight the OS.

As for the fully loaded Raspbian.
I would just write a bash script to install everything you need.
Then just run that when you flash a new SD card.
You will then get recent versions of the software all the time.

Heater
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:21 am

Over the decades I have noticed that every user of the "easy to use" Windows has a local geek in their circle of family and friends that they call on to get it working and resolve problems. If MS had to pay for all those billions of hours of free support over the decades they would be bankrupt!
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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HawaiianPi
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:43 am

Heater wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:07 am
Might be time to consider handing in your geek creds and changing you user name. :)
I agree. I have far more problems with Windows than Linux...
Heater wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:21 am
Over the decades I have noticed that every user of the "easy to use" Windows has a local geek in their circle of family and friends that they call on to get it working and resolve problems. If MS had to pay for all those billions of hours of free support over the decades they would be bankrupt!
Being the local geek in my circle probably contributes to that, because I'm mostly dealing with systems that friends and family have messed up.

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jahboater
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:50 am

You only have to look at what we do here all the time - writing a Raspbian Image.

Full Raspbian is over 4GB and needs the 64-bit version of unzip. Despite the 64-bit version being around for over 10 years, the WIndows unzip's often fail, and people have to download and install a third party product p7zip or similar. (Of course the Linux unzip works correctly and has done for years despite zip not really being a Linux thing).
Then to write the image Windows users have to download and install WinDiskImager or Etcher, otherwise it cant be done.
Finally I don't know how you verify the checksum on Windows - but on LInux it is simple.

The point is, to do such a simple task on Windows you need to install two or three bits of extra software. On Linux all the standard tools: unzip, dd, sha256sum work properly and are always present, even on Raspbian Lite.

Heater
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:03 am

Luckily MS have seen the light and put BASH into Windows 10. So now all your familiar useful tools are available in Windows as well.

Well, except things like dd and accessing non MS file systems. But we can look forward to MS replacing their kernel with Linux one day. They are now major contributors to Linux. Then these things will start to work out of the box.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Martin Frezman
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:33 am

major contributors to Linux
Be careful what you wish for. Do the words embrace/extend/extinguish mean anything to you?
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

jamesh
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:01 am

Martin Frezman wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:33 am
major contributors to Linux
Be careful what you wish for. Do the words embrace/extend/extinguish mean anything to you?
Be interesting to see MS trying to extinguish Linux...bearing in mind its all open source, and anyone can rebuild it all to their hearts content.
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:05 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:01 am
Be interesting to see MS trying to extinguish Linux...
Where have you been for the last 15 or so years ?

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mikerr
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:28 am

Pre built images are a way of saving time.

E.g. RPi could only distribute Raspbian Lite and not the full Raspbian GUI version, then make you apt-get all the rest
- possible - but it would be tedious and probably take an hour or more at install.

There may be room for another distro - but decide your focus first - you can't put everything in !
RPi obviously have an education/ programming focus - with scratch, python, java installed

You could produce a "makers" edition with arduino, kicad, blender, fritzing ...
jahboater wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:50 am
Full Raspbian is over 4GB and needs the 64-bit version of unzip. Despite the 64-bit version being around for over 10 years, the WIndows unzip's often fail, and people have to download and install a third party product 7zip or similar.

Then to write the image Windows users have to download and install WinDiskImager or Etcher, otherwise it cant be done..
Actually no - Etcher supports writing direct from the zip file - so just download the zip, and point Etcher at it. Job Done.
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jahboater
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:16 pm

mikerr wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:28 am
Actually no - Etcher supports writing direct from the zip file - so just download the zip, and point Etcher at it. Job Done.
Yes I know. Its good, and it avoids using the unreliable Windows unzip.

Heater
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:40 pm

Sure "embrace/extend/extinguish" is a phrase that has been bandied about for decades.

Optimistically we can hope that it also works the opposite way around than is usually meant:

1) Embrace.

Linux and Free and Open Source Software has always embraced Windows. We have Samba for inter-operation with Windows network sharing. We have NTFS support in the Linux kernel. What about Wine and a ton of other stuff?

2) Extend.

Currently in progress. Windows 10 is now extended with the Linux Subsystem for Windows, BASH on Windows.

Happily today an awful lot of the software I normally use on Linux runs on Windows. Chrome, Firefox, Inkskape, GIMP, KiCad, QtCreator, etc, etc. Now even more thanks to BASH on Windows.

3) Extinguish.

See the future...
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

MarkTF
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:47 pm

geek emeritus wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:32 pm
. . . it takes a week to do things in Linux that can be done in seconds on a Windows system. . .
When I first installed CH340 drivers on Windows 7 a couple years back the only available install package was in Chinese and my Intel/Ubuntu (12.x?) machine just worked without modification. I'm pretty sure I've used CH340 Arduino Uno clones on one of my RPis without doing anything special.

jamesh
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Re: If you built a fully loaded Raspbian

Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:13 pm

PeterO wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:05 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:01 am
Be interesting to see MS trying to extinguish Linux...
Where have you been for the last 15 or so years ?

PeterO
Using Linux....
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