Desmon
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Re: warranty

Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:54 pm

I've seen a lot of post related to price, shipping, VAT and this got me thinking, what about warranty? Does it have any kind of warranty or do we just go by the "if it works it works...if not, buy another" ? I'm not just talking about you've just got it out of the box and it's not working but also if it works well for a week, two, 1 month...and then BANG...something happens. Or do we go by the "if you have problem, ask the forum and get some skills solding" ? Now I'm not trying to jinx it, the first batch probably will go without any problems, but theirs always that black sheep out there just waiting to cause some trouble.

Warranty or not?

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DavidS
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:59 am

Why do you worry about a warranty?  I am sure that there is some form of quality control, and the thing comes with out any enclosure.  The most likely cause of errors on a new board is poor handling by the purchaser (you/us), with these low voltage SoCs I have heard of people not making sure that they are grounded, or at least to only handle the boards from the edges if not grounded, and fry something do to ESD.

Put plainly there is no reasonable way to warranty something that has almost no profit margin  and is distributed as a board with an enclosure

Though maybe the Raspberry Pi team should better answer this question, as the above is just one mans point of view.
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Desmon
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:35 am

Draufgänger said:


Now I'm not trying to jinx it, the first batch probably will go without any problems, but theirs always that black sheep out there just waiting to cause some trouble.


As I said, first batch will probably go without any problems, but stuff happens and there's going to be one, two, three or more that won't work or won't work properly and this is not a worse case scenario, this is reality. That's why I'm wondering now, so when it does happen people will know what to do.

jacklang
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:55 am

The first batch are development boards and will be sold without any warranty, or even guarantee of fitness for purpose…join with us in the adventure.

Later systems we hope will be sold with a one year return to factory warrranty, but we have to negotiate this with the assembler. For $25 the margin is slim, and the return postage often costs more than the sale price, besides having to cater for the usual proportion of people who have cooked or connected the mains to the board or the like. Even inspecting the returned board costs signifigcantly.

There may be scope for an insurance scheme for extra.

jamesh
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:16 am

In the EU there is a legal requirement for a two year warrantee of some description for all electronic goods, which I think applies to end user computers.
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Desmon
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:25 pm

Does that mean that even the first batch will have some kind of warranty?

st599
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:29 pm

You'll be covered by the EU Distance Selling Directive and EU Sale of Goods and Guaruntees Directive if you're buying in the EU.

Device has to be compliant and fit for purpose when broaught to market.  Fit for purpose for Electronics is usually 2 years.  I'd have to check what it says about ESD damage (I'd assume that, as the board is being sold without a case, you'd be covered for that too).

As for issuing a statement of caveat emptor - good luck with enforcing that one in the EU.

Desmon
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:44 pm

Then good thing I'm in the EU, but I was wondering how it wil be for everyone else. EH, guess we'll find out when they'll release it.

Warringer
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:04 pm

Its a cheap computing device for 25 to 35 Euros... I think I can buy a new one when I damage one of them without warranty.

Because then I can try to fiddle around with the damaged one and see if I can't repair it.

Desmon
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:23 pm

imagine your the most unlucky person on the planet, and both of them are broken, would you buy a third? What if they are all sold out. Or maybe since your the unluckiest person on the planet the third one breaks after a while. Also there's also the thing that the device is 35 euros + VAT (don't think it's included in the price) + shipping is around 20 euros for me and I'm in the eu...so add it all up and it makes a roughtly about 65-70 euros...so from the get go its 70 now if one breaks and you can't fix that makes 140 euro, money i rather spend on something else and use my old back-up pc for what I want the raspberry to do.

fallacybuffet
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:30 pm

This is why we can't have nice things to hack, anymore.  /sarcasm

Seriously, though, at this point the RaspPi is not being presented as a consumer device, and, while IANAL, this might provide an out from the aforementioned EU directives.  I trust the RaspPi Foundation has already/will be looking into this.  Personally, I'm getting two: one to hack and one to replace my MacBook.

Love this project!  It came into my life at exactly the right time.  The warranty should be a soldering iron.  :)

mengel
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:46 pm

If you want to be swaddled in cotton wool where nothing can possibly go wrong, you are in the wrong place! Buy an ipad , they won't even let you change the battery, so you can't possibly do anything wrong.(except buy from apple)

hippy
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:24 pm

Warranty and guaranteed minimal legal consumer protections would usually cover getting what you paid for, the thing matching what it is advertised as, functioning as it is expected to when bought and without failing when used in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations over some reasonable period. So basically; "is it what was advertised and does it work" when you get it.

Beyond that, breaking it through something you do, is usually your own fault; a repair rather than warranty issue.

In most cases it's obvious who is at fault, responsible for the failure; if you do something which destroys a board then that's your fault. One either accepts that or don't risk it to start with.

Where that gets complicated is if you burn out a GPIO pin or worse when there were no written guidelines on use which I suspect are the cases JackLang covers by saying the first batch is not being covered by warranty; if you use the first batch boards you accept all the risks of doing so.

Desmon
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:45 pm

I'm not saying something like making a robot, using it as brain and wondering why it broke. I'm just saying what if it doesn't work out of the box, or use it corectly and within a week. 2 or a month it just dies, cos at the end of the day sh!t happens…and that's a fact of life. And here im talking about the ones that will get it and will just use it as miniature pc and won't do anything to it other then maybe adding a case or something. Hacking or modifing is never included in any warranty. At the end of the day, if your going by the rules and adding taxes such as vat and maybe a green tax (i don't know if you guys also have it ) then as James said it falls under a warranty law of 1-2 years minimal that is set by the EU, UK being a part of it.

Think of it this way, here it doesn't matter if I buy a 1000 euros pc or 1 euro headsets, I get a warranty for both of them.

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DavidS
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:50 pm

Ok so how many people that are just going to put it in a case do you suppose are going to make sure that they are properly grounded when handling the device, or at least to never touch any thing other than the very edge if not grounded???   Let us be realistic in this.
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Desmon
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:08 pm

Some people just don't get it...I said what I had to say, listen to it or not, understand it or not, I don't care, I'm too tired to explain simple stuff in complex ways so some people can understand. You must be one of those Iphone people.

jacklang
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Re: warranty

Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:26 pm

These are development, beta boards. They are not finished product.

Finished, cased, tested (CE,UL, RF) product with polished software and manuals come later next year.

That said, we are pretty sure they mostly work, but we have not had time to test fully or for a long time.

They are therefore dont have the normal warranty requirements. You are joining in the development, in return for early access.

Of course we will be sympathetic to boards that are dead on arrival and the like, but we have no formal scheme in place yet.

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Jessie
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Re: warranty

Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:06 am

First, the plant that does the pick and place generally runs a set of tests after assembly.  I don't know if this is the case here but from my exp. this is what happens after a board is complete.  The board will get placed on a bench and the chips will be verified to work.  I am not a foundation member just an forum mod so I can't speak to the practices at their place of assembly, I can only verify what I have seen done as standard.

I'm also sure that once production begins random boards will be pulled from the various lots and tested.  Again, I am not the official voice for these matters so I can't say 100% that this will be done, only that it is standard practice with many electronic components.

There are laws in the EU that protect you provided you have not modified the unit and have handled it properly.  I live in the US so these laws do not apply to me but I have no fear that the foundation would have any issue with sending me a replacement should mine come in a broken state.  I would be suprised if any came out of these plants broken, the people working on these products have a lot of experence with these types of products.  The margins are so slim that they couldn't afford even a couple percent to come back deffective (again I am assuming here), the shipping would be killer, and therefore they must be engeneered to work from the start and last.  Once liz gets back from her holiday I'm sure she will be happy to address this.

Bikko
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Re: warranty

Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:14 pm

Other then ESD damage generally none moving electronics don't break that easy, Only thing might have issues if the SD card slot has a mechanical lock (ie push to eject)

First 10 being sold don't really need warrenty, if you want a warrenty wait till Jan :)

hippy
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Re: warranty

Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:29 pm

Bikko said:

First 10 being sold don't really need warrenty, if you want a warrenty wait till Jan :)

I think we need official clarification whether "no warranty" applies to just the first ten or the first 10K batch, and even subsequent batches.

Desmon
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Re: warranty

Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:50 am

too many opinions, best to wait until they actually sell it and see then where they stand.

Jock in a Frock
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Re: warranty

Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:35 am

Draufgänger said:


too many opinions, best to wait until they actually sell it and see then where they stand.


So now they're selling, what's the official stance?

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psergiu
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Re: warranty

Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:41 am

Let's ask RS & Farnell about this - they're the one selling & building them now. If anyone gets an answer from RS or Farnell about the warranty, please post-it here.

mcb1
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Re: warranty

Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:15 am

Not withstanding any of the EU laws, how can you guarantee the power supply (which isn't part of the device) wasn't the cause.

Its also very hard to determine if the connections to the board, exceeded the internal thresholds, and these connections aren't attached when it comes back.

I did note in the videos that there was very little extra protection when the kids at the school were using them.

I have found the Arduino range to be very tolerant to ESD/poor handling, but I understand they may have more protection.

So in the opinion of RaspberryPi.org, are these boards particularily sensitive to handling issues.

Mark

arm2
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Re: warranty

Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:37 am

jacklang said:


These are development, beta boards. They are not finished product.

Finished, cased, tested (CE,UL, RF) product with polished software and manuals come later next year.

That said, we are pretty sure they mostly work, but we have not had time to test fully or for a long time.

They are therefore dont have the normal warranty requirements. You are joining in the development, in return for early access.

Of course we will be sympathetic to boards that are dead on arrival and the like, but we have no formal scheme in place yet.



Calling them development boards does not negate the laws of any country. You are selling to the public not a business to business sale. These statements do not reflect well on the Foundation. The EU distance selling regulations apply as will the UK Sale of Goods Act and equivelant in other countries. If there is a EU or UK act that negates the protection those acts/directives grant, please state it.

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